How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[AmiableApkallu]

The downside of wanting diverse gameplay styles is that some class in every role has to be super accessible bc you have to leave something for the casual and or inexperienced player.

What we have currently is that devs want every job to be for the casual and inexperienced player so there's no barrier to entry for anything and I just think that's the wrong philosophy, to be completely honest.

I disagree. No job should have a barrier to entry, and every job should provide room for mastery.

By way of analogy: We have Tic-tac-toe, Reversi, Chess, and Go. Anyone can read the rules for these games, play them, and have a bit of fun, so long as their opponent plays at a similar level that they do. (Anyone should be able to pick up any job and get through the MSQ.) However, we don't speak of masters of Tic-tac-toe because the game is far too simple for "mastery" to mean anything, and we recognize that it's okay for some games to be more difficult to master than others. (No job should be like Tic-tac-toe, but it's okay if some are more like Go than others.)

[Turtledeluxe]

I disagree. No job should have a barrier to entry, and every job should provide room for mastery.

By way of analogy: We have Tic-tac-toe, Reversi, Chess, and Go. Anyone can read the rules for these games, play them, and have a bit of fun, so long as their opponent plays at a similar level that they do. (Anyone should be able to pick up any job and get through the MSQ.) However, we don't speak of masters of Tic-tac-toe because the game is far too simple for "mastery" to mean anything, and we recognize that it's okay for some games to be more difficult to master than others. (No job should be like Tic-tac-toe, but it's okay if some are more like Go than others.)

Well yes obviously the barrier to entry is not a reference to being able to play the job but play it effectively. Ie to master it. It's also a reference to disclaimers players constantly use ie "BLM is a hard Job". It's ok for some jobs to have that disclaimer but devs seem increasingly scared of this.

Additionally I do not agree that across the board, jobs should be easy to play and challenging to master. I think it would be better and more accommodating to all play styles if some jobs were easier to play and master. And you may say "well then everyone will play that class" but they do this already- look at WAR, SMN, RPR. The problem is that we lack classes that have that room for mastery hence why several jobs are plagued with "my class feels boring" complaints (not just healers).

Which brings me back to the original point-- there has to be a healer job that is straightforward and perhaps even simple compared to the others. Yes it sucks but that is part of compromising and the lack of compromise is precisely why these discussions go nowhere. Yes in a perfect world every job would be complex and interesting but not every player wants that and they deserve an experience too where they aren't totally decimated dps wise (or whatever metric, healing) just for a gameplay preference.

Though to be clear, I think said classes that are more straightforward still deserve a hard look at their gameplay loops to ensure they feel satisfying despite being more accessible.

[TheDustyOne]

Well yes obviously the barrier to entry is not a reference to being able to play the job but play it effectively. Ie to master it.

I think you're getting them mixed up; a low barrier to entry means someone can pick up the job and play it effectively, but mastering it involves going to great lengths to optimize it, not merely doing well with it.

BLM as you pointed out isn't actually that hard to understand at it's core, however, it has small nuances and techniques that you don't need to touch to be able to play it effectively; transpose-lines comes to mind. A new BLM player can get by with simply knowing to use Fire III when they finish their Umbral Ice phase and can get by with using their Firestarter proc only when they need to move, an experienced BLM may understand how strong it is to instead save Firestarter so they can Transpose from Umbral Ice and get a slight bonus from switching back to Astral Fire. It's a job that is fairly simple, but absolutely difficult to master, and satisfying to play well.

A BLM main could probably better explain how to best use Transpose, I've only had a very cursory glance at it and I don't use it in my own BLM gameplay, I stick to a standard rotation myself.

SMN on the other hand has very little to master beyond its basic rotation, the most you need to learn is when not to use Ifrit and Garuda Slipstream. It's simple to play, but mastery occurs very quickly, and ends up being pretty unsatisfying after a while.

Being easy to learn and hard to master is the mark of good game design, having jobs that are hard to get into simply because they're hard to get into doesn't make the design good. Some ideas and concepts for how a job might play may necessitate a higher skill floor, but ideally should still have some fallback options to avoid punishing bad play excessively.

[Turtledeluxe]

I think you're getting them mixed up; a low barrier to entry means someone can pick up the job and play it effectively, but mastering it involves going to great lengths to optimize it, not merely doing well with it.

BLM as you pointed out isn't actually that hard to understand at it's core, however, it has small nuances and techniques that you don't need to touch to be able to play it effectively; transpose-lines comes to mind. A new BLM player can get by with simply knowing to use Fire III when they finish their Umbral Ice phase and can get by with using their Firestarter proc only when they need to move, an experienced BLM may understand how strong it is to instead save Firestarter so they can Transpose from Umbral Ice and get a slight bonus from switching back to Astral Fire. It's a job that is fairly simple, but absolutely difficult to master, and satisfying to play well.

A BLM main could probably better explain how to best use Transpose, I've only had a very cursory glance at it and I don't use it in my own BLM gameplay, I stick to a standard rotation myself.

SMN on the other hand has very little to master beyond its basic rotation, the most you need to learn is when not to use Ifrit and Garuda Slipstream. It's simple to play, but mastery occurs very quickly, and ends up being pretty unsatisfying after a while.

Being easy to learn and hard to master is the mark of good game design, having jobs that are hard to get into simply because they're hard to get into doesn't make the design good. Some ideas and concepts for how a job might play may necessitate a higher skill floor, but ideally should still have some fallback options to avoid punishing bad play excessively.

I just think i didn't choose the right phrasing- I was not suggesting to make classes hard to play. That would kill the game.

As far as comparing BLM vs SMN you are correct. I would point out as a BLM main that I'm highly aware SMN is easier to play and gets you viable DPS with the benefits of high mobility and res. SMN is basically ez mode in comparison. But I will never move to SMN because I don't want that gameplay experience. It's an excellent comparison for illustrating how one class is clearly less popular (BLM) but satisfies a notable amount of players' gameplay preference, which is a very good thing imo. SMN has its own issues I've heard but I don't think bringing to the scale of BLM males any sense. As I've said before every role has and should have a simple but fun job that does most things well (not the best in all aspects, but well). SMN is that for casters imo but I've heard the rotation is boring and that may need some looking at. Similarly every role should have at least one BLM like class to offer those nuances and high ceiling.

[IDontPetLalas]

I just think i didn't choose the right phrasing- I was not suggesting to make classes hard to play. That would kill the game.

As far as comparing BLM vs SMN you are correct. I would point out as a BLM main that I'm highly aware SMN is easier to play and gets you viable DPS with the benefits of high mobility and res. SMN is basically ez mode in comparison. But I will never move to SMN because I don't want that gameplay experience. It's an excellent comparison for illustrating how one class is clearly less popular (BLM) but satisfies a notable amount of players' gameplay preference, which is a very good thing imo. SMN has its own issues I've heard but I don't think bringing to the scale of BLM males any sense. As I've said before every role has and should have a simple but fun job that does most things well (not the best in all aspects, but well). SMN is that for casters imo but I've heard the rotation is boring and that may need some looking at. Similarly every role should have at least one BLM like class to offer those nuances and high ceiling.

As you just stated 'As I've said before every role has and should have a simple but fun job that does most things well (not the best in all aspects, but well). SMN is that for casters imo but I've heard the rotation is boring and that may need some looking at."

As per the prior posts, the barrier to entry, whether for casters of for healers, may be low (which I believe it is today) , with no nuances, no skill expression whatsoever, however if it remains that way over 90 levels ,with no skill ceiling- then it's quite likely many healer mains won't find the job engaging, or, as TheDustyOne said 'unsatisfying".

Also, in regards to healer identity - if you look at the feedback from the PVP forums, quite a few people liked the way that the healer changes were done because each healer is very distinct, more so than in PVE. It's a pity that we don't have more of that feeling in PVE, rather than what we have after the pure/barrier changes.