How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[ty_taurus]

Tanks already have a full arsenal of attacks. One more attack doesn't move the needle any more than giving a DPS one more attack. But if you give a healer two more attacks you've nearly doubled their offensive kit.

And this last part is just my subjective opinion, but I think that's because tanks in FF14 are already so lacking in mechanical identity that they are little more than DPS with a bigger health pool and some defensive cooldowns. Their fight was lost long ago, while healers still have a chance.


I would personally say that the tanks in this game have the same DPS/tank mechanics ratio as RDM has DPS/heal mechanics ratio. It's low. There is not much that a tank does that is different than a DPS.

Healers, on the other hand, actually have a mechanical identity.

I love using 2 AoE heals in a 4 minute dungeon boss fight as my mechanical identity because that's how infrequently many dungeon bosses actually deal damage to the party. I've had to have surgery on my thumb because of the damage mashing Dosis has done to it for the 82 casts of it I perform during that 4 minute fight, but I'm sure glad I got to use Kerachole twice.

[LilimoLimomo]

I love using 2 AoE heals in a 4 minute dungeon boss fight as my mechanical identity because that's how infrequently many dungeon bosses actually deal damage to the party. I've had to have surgery on my thumb because of the damage mashing Dosis has done to it for the 82 casts of it I perform during that 4 minute fight, but I'm sure glad I got to use Kerachole twice.

With respect, you're telling me this like we're not on the same page about that being a problem. We just have different ideas of how to solve it.

Unrelated to anything in this debate, as someone with hand and wrist issues myself, I strongly recommend you don't mash, especially if it's resulting in medical issues. The GCD is 2.5 seconds, so only press it that often. Your GCD slipping is not worth your physical well-being. Especially in a dungeon. Regardless of which side either of us takes in this silly debate over what will make our free-time game more fun, you're a living person and I care about your well-being.

[ty_taurus]

With respect, you're telling me this like we're not on the same page about that being a problem. We just have different ideas of how to solve it.

Unrelated to anything in this debate, as someone with hand and wrist issues myself, I strongly recommend you don't mash, especially if it's resulting in medical issues. The GCD is 2.5 seconds, so only press it that often. Your GCD slipping is not worth your physical well-being. Especially in a dungeon. Regardless of which side either of us takes in this silly debate over what will make our free-time game more fun, you're a living person and I care about your well-being.

And I don't believe your solution will make a dent in that problem, at least not for the people who actually have a problem with the lack of healing, because you will never be able to demand enough healing at all difficulty levels to demand frequent enough healing that the atrocious DPS options the healers suffer will no longer be an issue without making the role unplayable for probably most of the current healer population.

[LilimoLimomo]

And I don't believe your solution will make a dent in that problem...

I think it's fair if you disagree with me on whether my preferred solution will work, but I hope you'll at least do me the respect of acknowledging that we both agree there's a problem. Your previous post seemed to imply that I was fine with the status quo that was contributing to your bad time, when I am very much not. You and I have been debating this issue for long enough that I would hope that you would at least understand that we agree there's a problem to be solved.

[Saraide]

With respect, you're telling me this like we're not on the same page about that being a problem. We just have different ideas of how to solve it.

Unrelated to anything in this debate, as someone with hand and wrist issues myself, I strongly recommend you don't mash, especially if it's resulting in medical issues. The GCD is 2.5 seconds, so only press it that often. Your GCD slipping is not worth your physical well-being. Especially in a dungeon. Regardless of which side either of us takes in this silly debate over what will make our free-time game more fun, you're a living person and I care about your well-being.

You're not on the same page. You have been arguing against ty's point for the entire thread. You're being told that your solution is not realistic and doesnt change anything in the first place. You're arguing against that with questionable levels of experience.

[LilimoLimomo]

You're not on the same page. You have been arguing against ty's point for the entire thread.

We are both on the page that Glare spam isn't fun and needs to be solved. We have different ideas about how to solve that. Because of that we are arguing. We agree on the problem, not the solution.

[ty_taurus]

This is silly and reductive. Anyone who plays a class can ask for whatever they want. And anyone else is free to disagree and ask for something else. You're not being robbed of your free speech just because some people on a forum disagree with you.

Except it isn't silly and reductive. I have lost my preferred playstyle in part because of this mentality that healers aren't allowed to get more attacks, that if you want to DPS, then you play a DPS job or Tank, but healers aren't allowed that privilege. Scholar used to provide that playstyle, and it was eradicated, and nothing in the game makes me enjoy FFXIV combat like I did before Scholar was destroyed in Shadowbringers. And yet, often times when I ask for DPS spells returned to Scholar, for Sage to live up to its described identity by Yoshi P himself, I am met with someone who tells me to play DPS if I want to DPS, who says real healers HEAL. Who says what I want will ruin healers, even when it doesn't ruin tanks. I am constantly met with people who believe I shouldn't be allowed to have the playstyle I want--constantly met with a mentality that as taken my enjoyment out of the game.

And for the record, I've also talked about trying to design a healer specifically for players who do not like DPSing as a healer--to make the Astrologian rework about turning Astrologian into a engine builder, who rather than directly heals and buffs, sets up healing and buffing effects that they detonate later in the fight while passively generating DPS to stay balanced with the other healers. And that would replace the bulk of their Malefic spam.

We are both on the page that Glare spam isn't fun and needs to be solved. We have different ideas about how to solve that. Because of that we are arguing. We agree on the problem, not the solution.

But the point is that there is evidence that suggests your solution will not work: the fact that Abyssos, a raiding tier that did not have the highest healing requirements that the game has ever seen, and was not particularly difficult for veteran healers to heal through, was seen as 'too much' for many healers new to raiding or to FFXIV who were interested in raiding. And in Abyssos, healers still were using their DPS roughly just as frequently. If that only barely scratched the DPS-to-healing ratio and still overwhelmed people trying to get into Savage, how on earth could the healing requirement of a dungeon ask for even more healing from the veterans that are upset with DPS spam?

[Aravell]

And in Abyssos, healers still were using their DPS roughly just as frequently.

It's actually worse if you tried to clear it before the HP nerf. I went back and checked my first kill of P8S P1 before they nerfed his HP pool and I spent 97.23% of my GCDs on damage spells. And before anyone says I was only chadding my cohealer, she spent 89.18% of her GCDs on damage spells as well, and it's only lower because WHM has to spend GCDs on Afflatus spells.

This is what SE's version of increased healing requirements looks like.

[LilimoLimomo]

But the point is that there is evidence that suggests your solution will not work: the fact that Abyssos, a raiding tier that did not have the highest healing requirements that the game has ever seen, and was not particularly difficult for veteran healers to heal through, was seen as 'too much' for many healers new to raiding or to FFXIV who were interested in raiding. And in Abyssos, healers still were using their DPS roughly just as frequently. If that only barely scratched the DPS-to-healing ratio and still overwhelmed people trying to get into Savage, how on earth could the healing requirement of a dungeon ask for even more healing from the veterans that are upset with DPS spam?

With respect, I think it's hasty to suggest that a set of fights using the kits this expansion is limited to offers meaningful evidence that no possible kit and no possible tuning could yield a solution. I would say that's probably fairly decent evidence that relying only on damage output won't yield a solution. But there is so much more possibility space outside of the status quo.

[ty_taurus]

With respect, I think it's hasty to suggest that a set of fights using the kits this expansion is limited to offers meaningful evidence that no possible kit and no possible tuning could yield a solution. I would say that's probably fairly decent evidence that relying only on damage output won't yield a solution. But there is so much more possibility space outside of the status quo.

I do still want to see some increase to healing gameplay. Never said I only wanted more DPS. My point is that the opposite of wanting only healing isn't the solution either. It's a combination of increase the healing without alienating the larger player base and increasing the variety of DPS options. Ideally, as I said prior, I think there should be a healer designed specifically to disguise the DPS that they must provide for balance purposes as healing and support by attaching it to an engine building system. Something within that ballpark the best I can think of without disrupting the state of play.