How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[LilimoLimomo]

Here is their satisfactory solution: Go play another game or MMO where you do not have to do DPS on a healer.

Beyond the nastiness of the sentiment, it's a bit of an odd stance to take considering that the designer of this game has gone on record saying that's not the game he's trying to make, which suggests that the fact that it is that kind of game is an accident and that given enough time he will eventually correct that mistake. That being the case, I hope you'll find it satisfactory if one day you need to find a different game because Yoshi-P achieves his goal. Not that I wish that on you; I would by far prefer a design that works for everyone.

[LilimoLimomo]

If someone wants to stay bad and not dps as healer then they can (doesnt mean they should) just not use DPS buttons. At that point it doesnt matter if you have one only glare or an entire damage rotation. This is why this point about "well some healers dont want more than glare" is kinda pointless because you can just be bad and the game doesnt really try to stop you.

It's only pointless if you take a blind eye to the culture that is created by mechanics. As Yoshi-P himself put it (translated from Japanese):

So I totally understand that those healers that have a very high player skill level and they’ve really mastered their jobs go into these different raids or battles and when they do have some downtime between their heals they do cast more offensive spells. Some of them desire to have more technical aspects of it so they are more active and I totally understand that sentiment. But of course the basis of a healer is to heal so I think the development team and I have this thinking of getting that sense of exhilaration from doing really good heal work.

That being said I don’t think we would do any sort of dramatic addition of offensive skills moving forward. By having these offensive abilities some players, like new healers, might feel pressured like “oh do I have to have good DPS while I’m healing?” or some players might be aggressive like “oh hey you have an offensive skill in your kit, why don’t you use it?” and I don’t think that’s optimal either.

He's right.

[ty_taurus]

It's only pointless if you take a blind eye to the culture that is created by mechanics. As Yoshi-P himself put it (translated from Japanese):

So I totally understand that those healers that have a very high player skill level and they’ve really mastered their jobs go into these different raids or battles and when they do have some downtime between their heals they do cast more offensive spells. Some of them desire to have more technical aspects of it so they are more active and I totally understand that sentiment. But of course the basis of a healer is to heal so I think the development team and I have this thinking of getting that sense of exhilaration from doing really good heal work.

That being said I don’t think we would do any sort of dramatic addition of offensive skills moving forward. By having these offensive abilities some players, like new healers, might feel pressured like “oh do I have to have good DPS while I’m healing?” or some players might be aggressive like “oh hey you have an offensive skill in your kit, why don’t you use it?” and I don’t think that’s optimal either.

He's right.

The basis of a tank is to defend, so why is it that tanks continue to get new attacks every expansion? Why aren't we expanding on their ability to control aggro and defend against attacks rather than adding Blade of Faith/Truth/Valor? Why does Dark Knight get Shadowbringer and Salt and Darkness, but White Mage get's Aquaveil and Liturgy of the Mouthful? What about all the new tanks that might feel pressured to do good DPS while tanking? What if someone yells at a Gunbreaker for misaligning their No Mercy?

Sure, tanks need some attacks to be able to solo, but why isn't Paladin's DPS library just Royal Authority as a spammable attack, Goring Blade as a 30 second DoT, Holy Circle as an AoE, and Confiteor as a DPS refund for using some GCD defensive cooldown? Why does a Paladin need more than that when they aren't a DPS? Why do they continue to get new attacks expansion after expansion, but I'm not allowed to have a Gunbreaker-level DPS kit on Sage, the healer who was marketed as a DPS-oriented healer?

[LilimoLimomo]

I just can't stand this double standard where no one yells at a Warrior asking for a new attack to spend Beast Gauge on, but a healer asks for another attack and it's "I play healer to HEAL. If I wanted to DPS, I'd play a DPS" Bet. I play tank to TANK! If I wanted to DPS, I'd play DPS.

Tanks already have a full arsenal of attacks. One more attack doesn't move the needle any more than giving a DPS one more attack. But if you give a healer two more attacks you've nearly doubled their offensive kit.

And this last part is just my subjective opinion, but I think that's because tanks in FF14 are already so lacking in mechanical identity that they are little more than DPS with a bigger health pool and some defensive cooldowns. Their fight was lost long ago, while healers still have a chance.

[Saraide]

It's only pointless if you take a blind eye to the culture that is created by mechanics. As Yoshi-P himself put it (translated from Japanese):

So I totally understand that those healers that have a very high player skill level and they’ve really mastered their jobs go into these different raids or battles and when they do have some downtime between their heals they do cast more offensive spells. Some of them desire to have more technical aspects of it so they are more active and I totally understand that sentiment. But of course the basis of a healer is to heal so I think the development team and I have this thinking of getting that sense of exhilaration from doing really good heal work.

That being said I don’t think we would do any sort of dramatic addition of offensive skills moving forward. By having these offensive abilities some players, like new healers, might feel pressured like “oh do I have to have good DPS while I’m healing?” or some players might be aggressive like “oh hey you have an offensive skill in your kit, why don’t you use it?” and I don’t think that’s optimal either.

He's right.

He isnt right. The average DF experience proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Many dps players also do not use their full kit. They still exist and will continue to exist. They are not bullied out of the game. Many healers in your average DF experience also do not frequently use their singular damage button. His logic should apply here already but it doesnt.

[ty_taurus]

Tanks already have a full arsenal of attacks. One more attack doesn't move the needle any more than giving a DPS one more attack. But if you give a healer two more attacks you've nearly doubled their offensive kit.

And this last part is just my subjective opinion, but I think that's because tanks in FF14 are already so lacking in mechanical identity that they are little more than DPS with a bigger health pool and some defensive cooldowns. Their fight was lost long ago, while healers still have a chance.


I would personally say that the tanks in this game have the same DPS/tank mechanics ratio as RDM has DPS/heal mechanics ratio. It's low. There is not much that a tank does that is different than a DPS.

Healers, on the other hand, actually have a mechanical identity.

I love using 2 AoE heals in a 4 minute dungeon boss fight as my mechanical identity because that's how infrequently many dungeon bosses actually deal damage to the party. I've had to have surgery on my thumb because of the damage mashing Dosis has done to it for the 82 casts of it I perform during that 4 minute fight, but I'm sure glad I got to use Kerachole twice.

[LilimoLimomo]

He isnt right. The average DF experience proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Many dps players also do not use their full kit. They still exist and will continue to exist. They are not bullied out of the game. Many healers in your average DF experience also do not frequently use their singular damage button. His logic should apply here already but it doesnt.

You're focusing too much on the most extreme outcomes, when there's actually a lot of room for unpleasantness between "totally fine" and "bullied to the point of leaving the game". Because while you're right in saying that many players do play sub-optimally, you would not be correct were you to say that there wasn't negative pressure being applied to many of these players to play differently. As a key person in charge of the game, Yoshi-P cares about that, and understands that he his decisions can make that worse or better. I will simply say that I agree with his choice.

[RitsukoSonoda]

The basis of a tank is to defend, so why is it that tanks continue to get new attacks every expansion? Why aren't we expanding on their ability to control aggro and defend against attacks rather than adding Blade of Faith/Truth/Valor? Why does Dark Knight get Shadowbringer and Salt and Darkness, but White Mage get's Aquaveil and Liturgy of the Mouthful? What about all the new tanks that might feel pressured to do good DPS while tanking? What if someone yells at a Gunbreaker for misaligning their No Mercy?

Sure, tanks need some attacks to be able to solo, but why isn't Paladin's DPS library just Royal Authority as a spammable attack, Goring Blade as a 30 second DoT, Holy Circle as an AoE, and Confiteor as a DPS refund for using some GCD defensive cooldown? Why does a Paladin need more than that when they aren't a DPS? Why do they continue to get new attacks expansion after expansion, but I'm not allowed to have a Gunbreaker-level DPS kit on Sage, the healer who was marketed as a DPS-oriented healer?

Tanks in this game are essentially just a melee DPS that exchanges some damage potency to gain increased durability and enmity generation. The devs have already overtuned the enmity generation to the point it's become a braindead process. Healer however is a role that normally should be adapting and reacting to changing circumstances during combat. Hence it's lack of any sort of proper rotation for healing or damage output. The issue is everything that has been done for the sake of "accessibility" which has created a situation where a healer often feels unnecessary unless playing with extremely bad players.

[LilimoLimomo]

I love using 2 AoE heals in a 4 minute dungeon boss fight as my mechanical identity because that's how infrequently many dungeon bosses actually deal damage to the party. I've had to have surgery on my thumb because of the damage mashing Dosis has done to it for the 82 casts of it I perform during that 4 minute fight, but I'm sure glad I got to use Kerachole twice.

With respect, you're telling me this like we're not on the same page about that being a problem. We just have different ideas of how to solve it.

Unrelated to anything in this debate, as someone with hand and wrist issues myself, I strongly recommend you don't mash, especially if it's resulting in medical issues. The GCD is 2.5 seconds, so only press it that often. Your GCD slipping is not worth your physical well-being. Especially in a dungeon. Regardless of which side either of us takes in this silly debate over what will make our free-time game more fun, you're a living person and I care about your well-being.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

It's only pointless if you take a blind eye to the culture that is created by mechanics. As Yoshi-P himself put it (translated from Japanese):

So I totally understand that those healers that have a very high player skill level and they’ve really mastered their jobs go into these different raids or battles and when they do have some downtime between their heals they do cast more offensive spells. Some of them desire to have more technical aspects of it so they are more active and I totally understand that sentiment. But of course the basis of a healer is to heal so I think the development team and I have this thinking of getting that sense of exhilaration from doing really good heal work.

That being said I don’t think we would do any sort of dramatic addition of offensive skills moving forward. By having these offensive abilities some players, like new healers, might feel pressured like “oh do I have to have good DPS while I’m healing?” or some players might be aggressive like “oh hey you have an offensive skill in your kit, why don’t you use it?” and I don’t think that’s optimal either.

He's right.

Double standard.

Majority of players in ALL roles already sitting on some of their kits playing within their dream bubble freestyling beyond recognition. People stayed silent for the most part. And if there are oddballs who think it's a great idea to be rude about it, ToS already protects these snowflakes.

So why is it okay for DPS/Tanks but suddenly it's a different story for Healer? (not directed at you, specifically).

Again, even if this is really an 'accidental' rather than done on purpose, how many times do you wish to excuse them with the same reason after 6+ years of questionable job design? There's got to be the point where one would begin to doubt this is accidental, at all. Once or twice seems plausible. Beyond that it's either ignorance, incompetence, or a mix of both.