when will this lazy devs fix the alliance roulette?

[Erzaa]

snip

Fair point. And yes, I might've been hyperbolic. I'm more inclined to agree with Jeeqbit's comment, like I said.

But, all these proposed solutions are being thrown around as various ways of fixing the game. Some innocent QoL, others massive changes to the game.

As in the case of someone making an innocent request for additional hotbars. SE adding more optional hotbars for some players who'd like them wouldn't damage the game in any way. Yet, the poster was inundated with naysayers telling them to be more efficient and that they're doing it wrong. I don't need or care about more optional hotbars, but why exactly attack the poster for asking for something so innocent?

How about the currently 40 pages of just buy gear off the MB regarding the AR? A couple of extra conditions that wouldn't change anything about how the roulette works right now, being attacked with, "...you're playing the game wrong".

Here's the issue with the community. It's not a unified entity, but it also can't even agree on what a solution would be. In cases where a fix wouldn't even hurt the majority of the playerbase, they'll jump in and drown out the posters asking for small innocent changes. In much bigger changes, it becomes a pool of who's louder about how the change should be implemented, listed in one to two paragraphs, without any consideration about said downsides and how to alleviate them. Everyone thinks they have the right solution to a problem, until the solution is implemented and things become worse.

If the community as a whole could discuss things civil, take all the ideas, consider each of them and their merits, list their potential negatives and provide them all as player feedback and then allow the devs to implement the one that serves best, that's worthwhile.

But that's not what's happening. Players come up with solutions only from their point of view, those get implemented if they scream loud enough, then a new set of players who were never involved before get hit with problems, they suggest different solutions only from their side if they scream loud enough, and that's how we keep getting into these situations.

No solution is going to perfect for all the things all the time. If we're going to give feedback, it needs to be considered from all angles and with eyes open to expected consequences.

But if we're unwilling to do that, consider all of the playerbase as a whole and they're different ways of playing the game, then yes I'd rather SE not take feedback at all.

[PyurBlue]

As in the case of someone making an innocent request for additional hotbars. SE adding more optional hotbars for some players who'd like them wouldn't damage the game in any way. Yet, the poster was inundated with naysayers telling them to be more efficient and that they're doing it wrong. I don't need or care about more optional hotbars, but why exactly attack the poster for asking for something so innocent?

I don't know why anyone would. It's pretty simple to look at something and ask yourself if it will negatively impact you. If it does, you can provide your own PoV and suggestions. If it doesn't, there isn't much reason to say anything.

I agree with you that here is a problem here, but I also have what I consider a straightforward solution, that being to ignore posts without substance. If someone is opposed to something just for the sake of opposition, there probably isn't much to gain from their feedback. Some people are capable of discussing things rationally and I don't think they should be sidelined because of the people who can't.

Here's the issue with the community. It's not a unified entity, but it also can't even agree on what a solution would be. In cases where a fix wouldn't even hurt the majority of the playerbase, they'll jump in and drown out the posters asking for small innocent changes. In much bigger changes, it becomes a pool of who's louder about how the change should be implemented, listed in one to two paragraphs, without any consideration about said downsides and how to alleviate them. Everyone thinks they have the right solution to a problem, until the solution is implemented and things become worse.

If the community as a whole could discuss things civil, take all the ideas, consider each of them and their merits, list their potential negatives and provide them all as player feedback and then allow the devs to implement the one that serves best, that's worthwhile.

Very good points, but I think SE has to take some blame here due to how infrequently they respond to players. I think if we saw responses from them more often, people would be a little less competitive. It's going to have to be a balancing act of course. SE can't live on the forums and ignore actually working on the game, and even if they were more active on the forum or something, some people would still complain, but I think two way communication is lacking right now.

Instead of:

Problem > Complaints > SE picks a solution > Patch

I'd rather see something more like

Problem > Discussion > SE's feedback on the discussion > Refinement of solutions > SE lists what is most plausible out of what the community is suggesting > Community Consensus > Patch

But that's not what's happening. Players come up with solutions only from their point of view, those get implemented if they scream loud enough, then a new set of players who were never involved before get hit with problems, they suggest different solutions only from their side if they scream loud enough, and that's how we keep getting into these situations.

No solution is going to perfect for all the things all the time. If we're going to give feedback, it needs to be considered from all angles and with eyes open to expected consequences.

Absolutely. Especially the last part. And it's not even that hard to do on an individual level despite there being many people who pretend it is. I don't know how to get more people to approach discussion this way, but I think that the people willing to talk and listen should be the ones SE listens to the most.