Dark Knight needs serious help

[GoatOfWar]

Healing is a whole other discussion but as I've mentioned, healers need more buttons in general and all could do with having their offense being linked to their healing. Do Blood Lily and let it heal while doing big damage, makes a lot less heal bots. Also a WAR is great until they catch a doom that requires cleanse, good luck Holmganging through that. Also if they had some "Tank LB3" moments of their own like with UWU and the doom requiring Healer LB3 there, that'd be nice. Plus if the healer I'm running with is terrible at mechs and dies in a dungeon, congratulations I can save the day so it isn't just death unless it happens when the boss is about to die anyway. I can also show people more mechanics in extreme content by not dying as early as other tanks. That stuff is cool and shouldn't be missed.

It's not WAR's fault that DRK is balanced poorly, it's the balance itself. Bring DRK up to have the best shields(they already do), mit everything like a normal tank, and have a more unique attack identity instead of discount WAR which nobody asked for, not even DRK's since Delirium is more of an insult to them at the moment.

Healers in general could do with more buttons(I miss Aero 3 on White Mage). Sage is honestly a good starting point for healing as a whole. Everyone is a DPS as is, let their damage become heals so they have a more engaging rotation overall, and they do their job rather than Cure 1 until the end of time. This isn't a Healer thread though so that's as far as I'll go.

I won't deny WAR is amazing, but instead of tearing down an amazing thing, bring everyone else up. Everyone is happy then, and when everyone is great, then they can evaluate and base content around sustainable tanks that can all do reasonably good damage.

All that just circles back to powercreep. We don't need more borderline immortal tanks.
Warrior needs nerfs to put it back in line with Dark knight. You wanted our damage, you should welcome the downsides that come with that.

[MikoRemi]

All that just circles back to powercreep. We don't need more borderline immortal tanks.

Imagine a world where every tank could have proper sustain, nice kits that came at proper levels, and pretty close range of dps. Then when planning content, it’s easier to consider mechanics and overall damage to challenge said kits and sustain rather than plan every dungeon around DRK so they don’t give healers too much of a migraine. Don’t want to believe they would? Then why change anything with that viewpoint.

Powercreep is only applicable if they never changed anything to accomodate the shift, when everyone has their version of a decent kit, suddenly it’s possible to more readily plan around that, rather than tear down a good tank just because. Besides just being sad, when will the nerfs end? Oh this class is doing good? Nerf every job until eventually the content has to be nerfed because every tank is godawful. Id rather not repeat Dark Souls 2 balance, thank you very much.

[GoatOfWar]

Imagine a world where every tank could have proper sustain, nice kits that came at proper levels, and pretty close range of dps. Then when planning content, it’s easier to consider mechanics and overall damage to challenge said kits and sustain rather than plan every dungeon around DRK so they don’t give healers too much of a migraine. Don’t want to believe they would? Then why change anything with that viewpoint.

Powercreep is only applicable if they never changed anything to accomodate the shift, when everyone has their version of a decent kit, suddenly it’s possible to more readily plan around that, rather than tear down a good tank just because. Besides just being sad, when will the nerfs end? Oh this class is doing good? Nerf every job until eventually the content has to be nerfed because every tank is godawful. Id rather not repeat Dark Souls 2 balance, thank you very much.

I strongly suspect this is moreso about not wanting necessary Warrior nerfs than it is about wanting other tanks to be good.
Warrior doesn't just break current content.. It trivialises old ultimates, where it is now the 5th dps in Uwu with almost it's full defensive kit available while Dark knight doesn't even get it's party wide until 76.
In my static we run 3 dps 1 warrior comps for dungeons both new and old because it's optimal. People are doing no healer runs of ultimates in Warrior/Paladin setups already, how much further do you think we can push the ridiculous sustain? I don't think putting another tank on Warrior's level would be a good idea. Yeah, i want them to nerf Warrior, and nerf it properly. It won't make your job bad. It just means you don't get to be overpowered anymore.
They don't need to rework the entire game to suit the stupid sustain, they just need to nerf warrior.

[MikoRemi]

I strongly suspect this is moreso about not wanting necessary Warrior nerfs than it is about wanting other tanks to be good.
Warrior doesn't just break current content.. It trivialises old ultimates, where it is now the 5th dps in Uwu with almost it's full defensive kit available while Dark knight doesn't even get it's party wide until 76.
In my static we run 3 dps 1 warrior comps for dungeons because it's optimal. People are doing no healer runs of ultimates in Warrior/Paladin setups already, how much further do you think we can push the ridiculous sustain?
I don't think putting another tank on Warrior's level would be a good idea. Yeah, i want them to nerf Warrior, and nerf it properly. It won't make your job bad. It just means you don't get to be overpowered anymore.

Necessary to some doesn't make it necessary, that's just personal opinion. Nerfing hurts far more than buffing, that's inarguable. Look into Loss Aversion some time.
Everything breaks old ultimates. We all have massive potency changes, all our kits got changed, no more tank stance dancing, no need for party responsibility on aggro, no role actions like manashift or erase or goad, not even TP to worry about. It's a lot more than just "WAR is good". Older Ultimates were made with a vastly different setup in mind.
DRK should get their kit earlier, I never said it shouldn't. I would argue TBN needs to be available at 45 or something, whatever before 50 considering how core of an ability it is.
It's a fun comp to run, but I run on DF where I have a healer and 2 dps. Most people do. If people wanna have fun with their group of friends then go ahead and do 1 warrior 3 dps, long as healers are able to come around though if they want, that's what matters. In casual content, the composition shouldn't matter as much anyway.
TOP primarily because you can res cheese, try to do that with Lahabrea's doom in UWU, which is why Healer LB3 is required, I dare you.
Or just make every tank good, then balance the content reasonably. Ok we got our awesome amazing dps, mits, and sustains, now challenge us. Throw in some cleansable elements and make cleansing actually good, fix healer buttons up, and well be getting a lot more action. Tanks are awesome until they get pacification, or paralyze tic every 2 seconds. The content that can bust us good will bust us regardless(Harrowing Hell), but a little more challenge goes a long way while still letting our kit remain.

[GoatOfWar]

Necessary to some doesn't make it necessary, that's just personal opinion. Nerfing hurts far more than buffing, that's inarguable. Look into Loss Aversion some time.
Everything breaks old ultimates. We all have massive potency changes, all our kits got changed, no more tank stance dancing, no need for party responsibility on aggro, no role actions like manashift or erase or goad, not even TP to worry about. It's a lot more than just "WAR is good". Older Ultimates were made with a vastly different setup in mind.
DRK should get their kit earlier, I never said it shouldn't. I would argue TBN needs to be available at 45 or something, whatever before 50 considering how core of an ability it is.
It's a fun comp to run, but I run on DF where I have a healer and 2 dps. Most people do. If people wanna have fun with their group of friends then go ahead and do 1 warrior 3 dps, long as healers are able to come around though if they want, that's what matters. In casual content, the composition shouldn't matter as much anyway.
TOP primarily because you can res cheese, try to do that with Lahabrea's doom in UWU, which is why Healer LB3 is required, I dare you.
Or just make every tank good, then balance the content reasonably. Ok we got our awesome amazing dps, mits, and sustains, now challenge us. Throw in some cleansable elements and make cleansing actually good, fix healer buttons up, and well be getting a lot more action. Tanks are awesome until they get pacification, or paralyze tic every 2 seconds. The content that can bust us good will bust us regardless(Harrowing Hell), but a little more challenge goes a long way while still letting our kit remain.

Surely, you can see the slippery slope you're walking on here..
''Oh [x] content does not matter because other things also break it''
''Dungeon content does not matter because it is casual''
''Normal raids don't matter because they're easy''
''Old Ultimates don't matter because they're old''
''Breaking [x] content is fun for [y] reason so it's okay''

These are all things i've heard multiple Warrior mains say just so they can enjoy remaining overpowered.
What do we have healers for? Again, people are clearing ultimates without healers largely because of the ridiculous sustain warrior currently has access to.
We don't need to introduce cancerous mechanics to every single fight in the game just to make sure healers are brought. Warrior just needs nerfs, it's that simple. Whether you like it or not. It will survive, just like Dark knight has survived without the comically high amounts of sustain that warrior has access to. We have healers in our party and for Dark knight, they're not cosmetic. We don't want to turn into Warrior, Warrior players wanted Warrior to turn into Dark knight but without any of it's downsides. It is time you accept those downsides that come with the homogenisation you asked for.

[Shurrikhan]

Necessary to some doesn't make it necessary, that's just personal opinion. Nerfing hurts far more than buffing, that's inarguable. Look into Loss Aversion some time.

Loss has a higher chance to spawn irrational aversion than an addition has a chance to spawn irrational elation. That doesn't necessarily translate over to buffing and nerfing, though.

Imagine that you are a sniper hero. Now, you get a massive buff not to your sniper but rather to your sidearm, which was already stronger at short to medium-short ranges and not far below that of generalist class's primary arm across those ranges.

Good? Or bad (especially if having at least the slightest bit of foresight regarding likely later pendulum swings or escalation elsewhere)?

Alternatively, let's say you're a very strong and lethal sniper, to the point that other classes argue that there is very little recourse against you, and so you are nerfed with some HP loss to make it so you actually have to pull out at times, keeping your lethality sharp but less constant and more dependent on other elements of skill expression.

Good? Or bad?

Gameplay design needn't and shouldn't be beholden to irrational not-yet-informed / not-yet-tested gut reactions. It should instead target making good experiences, not just a good cover.



Warrior's healing being as high as it is makes it feel out of alignment with the rest of its kit. In dungeons, have Bloodwhetting, and then you have "Everything else, by which to tide oneself over for the next Bloodwhetting".

In those settings, playing Warrior literally feels less fun now for having that excessive extent of AoE healing. It is that much more difficult to feel at all challenged as a Warrior, specifically, and our kit feels more jank/lop-sided atop that shortfall.

And the very changes that made it so excessive in AoE are what also hurt its ability to function integrally with the rest of our kit. We can no longer pull healing from Vengeance's counterattacks, from our damage buffs, from banked resources and oGCDs. It's duller even in that sense, too.


Tl;dr:
We should be looking more carefully at what forms of sustain can be made as engaging/fun as possible and likely slightly shaving or revising this part or accentuating that in order to allow jobs to feel more distinct from each other in how they reach their parities, not just trying to slap on more sustain haphazardly to raise everyone else to the (dys)function of the outlying job.

[Supersnow845]

Imagine a world where every tank could have proper sustain, nice kits that came at proper levels, and pretty close range of dps. Then when planning content, it’s easier to consider mechanics and overall damage to challenge said kits and sustain rather than plan every dungeon around DRK so they don’t give healers too much of a migraine. Don’t want to believe they would? Then why change anything with that viewpoint.

Powercreep is only applicable if they never changed anything to accomodate the shift, when everyone has their version of a decent kit, suddenly it’s possible to more readily plan around that, rather than tear down a good tank just because. Besides just being sad, when will the nerfs end? Oh this class is doing good? Nerf every job until eventually the content has to be nerfed because every tank is godawful. Id rather not repeat Dark Souls 2 balance, thank you very much.

If we don’t nerf WAR and instead buff everyone else to WAR’s level we may as well just delete healers, you can argue amongst the other 3 if they are the right level of tank sustain but WAR is just comically overpowered in casual content, if they nerfed WAR to PLD currently and slightly nerfed PLD to GNB levels they would all be similar in terms of sustain, WAR for all shouldn’t be the goal here

The answer is also not buff everyone to WAR and then make healers into glorified “DPS made a mistake fixers”, tanks should be required to rely on healers

[Rithy255]

If we don’t nerf WAR and instead buff everyone else to WAR’s level we may as well just delete healers, you can argue amongst the other 3 if they are the right level of tank sustain but WAR is just comically overpowered in casual content, if they nerfed WAR to PLD currently and slightly nerfed PLD to GNB levels they would all be similar in terms of sustain, WAR for all shouldn’t be the goal here

The answer is also not buff everyone to WAR and then make healers into glorified “DPS made a mistake fixers”, tanks should be required to rely on healers

Exactly, I'm not wanting to be like warrior, I don't even want magic healing sustain, I like PLD because I want to *support* my team and help my healers.. not replace them, which currently in current content I feel bad for tanking decently so my healer never has to lift a finger, I guess to a degree they can just "up damage" with plds self sustain and make it so healers actually have to heal in aoe, but as Warrior's healing is AOE it's not exactly easy to make it so you can pull more and healers will actually have to heal in that pull. (Single target is somewhat fixable... actually most likely not, but you could argue they could make aoe damage more in dungeons to give healer something to do.. but meh, at this point we should just be nerfing warrior and PLD's sustain).

Actually I think it's the warriors job to fix dps mistakes at this point you can just heal/shield them for 1600 potency (not including forced crits you can do) anyway, you can AOE regen and heal the team, healers really don't need to make a choice between "healing" or "damage" anymore, it's damage and throw out ur ogcd heal if you have to.

[MikoRemi]

If we don’t nerf WAR and instead buff everyone else to WAR’s level we may as well just delete healers, you can argue amongst the other 3 if they are the right level of tank sustain but WAR is just comically overpowered in casual content, if they nerfed WAR to PLD currently and slightly nerfed PLD to GNB levels they would all be similar in terms of sustain, WAR for all shouldn’t be the goal here

The answer is also not buff everyone to WAR and then make healers into glorified “DPS made a mistake fixers”, tanks should be required to rely on healers

I see you didn't look at my previous post where I mentioned Healers need to be able to cleanse more and be able to support for content that does start hurting. Unless you believe WAR can outheal things like Harrowing Hell without healers at all.

Everyone already is glorified DPS to begin with. If we weren't we wouldn't have to worry about damage in content that isn't just dungeons. I don't see how it'd be any worse to make them at least actually interesting. Sage already shows how much fun you can get when damage and healing go hand in hand.

Again, if everyone was on WAR level, I don't understand why people think the content wouldn't shift to accommodate it. They already are with the recent bits of cleansable dooms in dungeons.

If a healer eats it because they aren't fast enough or paying attention, the party already suffers in general with lack of heals, especially with things like stacks which will just hurt more in general and require more overall shielding/mitigation to help the squishier members of the party. Everyone can rely on healing for cleansing and general heals with some heavy hitting attacks while dishing out damage, tanks are obviously the ones that take the damage and dishing out damage, DPS make sure the checks are made and time is saved with good damage.

Anyways, I can see there isn't an agreement to be made here so I'll at least get back to the topic. DRK could use some help with its general kit overall, but buffs don't need to come at another classes expense. When everybody has cake, everybody is happy.

[Supersnow845]

I see you didn't look at my previous post where I mentioned Healers need to be able to cleanse more and be able to support for content that does start hurting. Unless you believe WAR can outheal things like Harrowing Hell without healers at all.

Everyone already is glorified DPS to begin with. If we weren't we wouldn't have to worry about damage in content that isn't just dungeons. I don't see how it'd be any worse to make them at least actually interesting. Sage already shows how much fun you can get when damage and healing go hand in hand.

Again, if everyone was on WAR level, I don't understand why people think the content wouldn't shift to accommodate it. They already are with the recent bits of cleansable dooms in dungeons.

If a healer eats it because they aren't fast enough or paying attention, the party already suffers in general with lack of heals, especially with things like stacks which will just hurt more in general and require more overall shielding/mitigation to help the squishier members of the party. Everyone can rely on healing for cleansing and general heals with some heavy hitting attacks while dishing out damage, tanks are obviously the ones that take the damage and dishing out damage, DPS make sure the checks are made and time is saved with good damage.

Anyways, I can see there isn't an agreement to be made here so I'll at least get back to the topic. DRK could use some help with its general kit overall, but buffs don't need to come at another classes expense. When everybody has cake, everybody is happy.

What’s the point of buffing everyone to WAR’s level then changing the content to accomodate that when they could just nerf WAR and fix the problem without having to go through the drama of having old content completely negated by power creep