Dark Knight needs serious help

[MikoRemi]

You must not be very active in the FF sphere if you think that most War players genuinely care about tank balance.
The bald streamer and warrior playerbase have already established that damage should not be a factor in balance because that wouldn't benefit them, so that's not going to happen.

It's more of DRK needs other actual positive changes but ok buddy.

[Supersnow845]

It's more of DRK needs other actual positive changes but ok buddy.

But the problem isn’t mitigation, the entire problem with tank balance on the mitigation side is WAR, not DRK, you can argue that DRK’s DPS design is boring an uninspired (which I don’t really disagree with) but at least it’s something somewhat different and again the problem circles back to WAR’s damage is nowhere close to proportional to the level of damage they do

DRK’s job design is a valid problem to ponder just looking at DRK but 99.9% of cross tank balance is WAR’s fault

[MikoRemi]

But the problem isn’t mitigation, the entire problem with tank balance on the mitigation side is WAR, not DRK, you can argue that DRK’s DPS design is boring an uninspired (which I don’t really disagree with) but at least it’s something somewhat different and again the problem circles back to WAR’s damage is nowhere close to proportional to the level of damage they do

DRK’s job design is a valid problem to ponder just looking at DRK but 99.9% of cross tank balance is WAR’s fault

The design at the moment is just sad because someone decided to make DRK into discount WAR which makes DRK sad because job identity, and makes WAR sad because they never asked for DRK to be like WAR in that sense. If we wanna Fell Cleave, we have the job for it. DRK just needs to lean more into its magical bursting potential which it kinda has, but explored more. Also give it sustain and make it mit all damage, no reason for it to mitigate just magic, even our Addle and Feint don't just block magic/physical only anymore.

The mit is very much an issue because of the fact every other tank can deal with physical and magical, but not DRK...for some reason. It's also hardly different aside from being able to use its OGCD more often which is fine, but I don't know any DRK that wanted to have WAR's Inner Release and Fell Cleave, that's more a disservice to them. Even Dark Arts was at least unique even if it was really terrible to hit every single time.

PLD also has good mitigation but people love to just keep bringing up WAR for some reason like it's the only tank job that has sustainability. PLD's been doing it long before most other tanks actually. So I'd rather just bring DRK(and GNB by extension) up instead of tearing down WAR. Nerfs always hurt more than buffs, and whenever WAR does get nerfed, people get their laughs until it becomes a problem and WAR comes back and the cycle starts all over again. Might as well just bring the others up so every tank is more fun instead of tearing down one tank just because it has something going for it...even though it isn't even the only one doing it. I mean if DRK actually got sustainability and a more unique kit, it's only ever a net positive. Statistically there will be the occasional weirdo who wants DRK to be worse than WAR, but at that point, that's just a wrong opinion.

[Rithy255]

It's more of DRK needs other actual positive changes but ok buddy.

Its more that all tanks need some form of tuning IMO, You can't deny that warrior does pretty much everything that DRK does but better at this point, It's also just very unfun for healers to actually heal warrior

I don't view it as a Issue with just one tank personally it's a multiple tank issue, DRK I think really is in need of a rework but that's more from the side of it's GCD's being warrior but worse. War right now thematically makes no sense and is a unfun tank to heal (play personally although its pretty popular)

[MikoRemi]

Healing is a whole other discussion but as I've mentioned, healers need more buttons in general and all could do with having their offense being linked to their healing. Do Blood Lily and let it heal while doing big damage, makes a lot less heal bots. Also a WAR is great until they catch a doom that requires cleanse, good luck Holmganging through that. Also if they had some "Tank LB3" moments of their own like with UWU and the doom requiring Healer LB3 there, that'd be nice. Plus if the healer I'm running with is terrible at mechs and dies in a dungeon, congratulations I can save the day so it isn't just death unless it happens when the boss is about to die anyway. I can also show people more mechanics in extreme content by not dying as early as other tanks. That stuff is cool and shouldn't be missed.

It's not WAR's fault that DRK is balanced poorly, it's the balance itself. Bring DRK up to have the best shields(they already do), mit everything like a normal tank, and have a more unique attack identity instead of discount WAR which nobody asked for, not even DRK's since Delirium is more of an insult to them at the moment.

Healers in general could do with more buttons(I miss Aero 3 on White Mage). Sage is honestly a good starting point for healing as a whole. Everyone is a DPS as is, let their damage become heals so they have a more engaging rotation overall, and they do their job rather than Cure 1 until the end of time. This isn't a Healer thread though so that's as far as I'll go.

I won't deny WAR is amazing, but instead of tearing down an amazing thing, bring everyone else up. Everyone is happy then, and when everyone is great, then they can evaluate and base content around sustainable tanks that can all do reasonably good damage.

[GoatOfWar]

Healing is a whole other discussion but as I've mentioned, healers need more buttons in general and all could do with having their offense being linked to their healing. Do Blood Lily and let it heal while doing big damage, makes a lot less heal bots. Also a WAR is great until they catch a doom that requires cleanse, good luck Holmganging through that. Also if they had some "Tank LB3" moments of their own like with UWU and the doom requiring Healer LB3 there, that'd be nice. Plus if the healer I'm running with is terrible at mechs and dies in a dungeon, congratulations I can save the day so it isn't just death unless it happens when the boss is about to die anyway. I can also show people more mechanics in extreme content by not dying as early as other tanks. That stuff is cool and shouldn't be missed.

It's not WAR's fault that DRK is balanced poorly, it's the balance itself. Bring DRK up to have the best shields(they already do), mit everything like a normal tank, and have a more unique attack identity instead of discount WAR which nobody asked for, not even DRK's since Delirium is more of an insult to them at the moment.

Healers in general could do with more buttons(I miss Aero 3 on White Mage). Sage is honestly a good starting point for healing as a whole. Everyone is a DPS as is, let their damage become heals so they have a more engaging rotation overall, and they do their job rather than Cure 1 until the end of time. This isn't a Healer thread though so that's as far as I'll go.

I won't deny WAR is amazing, but instead of tearing down an amazing thing, bring everyone else up. Everyone is happy then, and when everyone is great, then they can evaluate and base content around sustainable tanks that can all do reasonably good damage.

All that just circles back to powercreep. We don't need more borderline immortal tanks.
Warrior needs nerfs to put it back in line with Dark knight. You wanted our damage, you should welcome the downsides that come with that.

[Rithy255]

Healing is a whole other discussion but as I've mentioned, healers need more buttons in general and all could do with having their offense being linked to their healing. Do Blood Lily and let it heal while doing big damage, makes a lot less heal bots. Also a WAR is great until they catch a doom that requires cleanse, good luck Holmganging through that. Also if they had some "Tank LB3" moments of their own like with UWU and the doom requiring Healer LB3 there, that'd be nice. Plus if the healer I'm running with is terrible at mechs and dies in a dungeon, congratulations I can save the day so it isn't just death unless it happens when the boss is about to die anyway. I can also show people more mechanics in extreme content by not dying as early as other tanks. That stuff is cool and shouldn't be missed.

Healing and tanking are closely tied together, I think you cannot deny that tanking doesn't effect healing, your solution also while on paper makes "everyone happy" really doesn't make healers actually "healing" more it's just adding damage to a job that with a warrior *doesn't* need to heal at all in normal content. (they'd still be boring dps in dungeons)

Warrior my point is a bit bias here, but it really doesn't suit the "high team healing tank", if you get what im talking about, why is warrior healing allies and shielding them? it doesn't even make any sense as a design, What I want from warrior is a big damage berserker "selfish" (still should have raid wides and target utilities, but not powerful ones) tank, It's design fundamentally doesn't make any sense and just makes the healer experience "go afk or spam damage", I'm not defending Paladin either, but at least it somewhat fits from what you expect from a PLD, personally I'd reduce/remove the magic attack healing.

I'm also not saying remove all the sustain and healing from warrior I just think in current content it's AOE sustain isn't a fun design for anyone other then people who enjoy warrior. I don't know I'd be bored to tears if every time i pressed holy Shelton in a dungeon aoe i'd just heal to max personally... I don't think other tanks want to have it's absurd sustain either that's the main issue.

I may understand you enjoy current warrior, but it's currently a big issue with how it's designed at least it went and strayed from its identity so much and feels like it makes no sense currently. I'm also not advocating for trashing warrior but in general tanks like warrior should get a overhaul in it's design to fit more into it's identity

[MikoRemi]

All that just circles back to powercreep. We don't need more borderline immortal tanks.

Imagine a world where every tank could have proper sustain, nice kits that came at proper levels, and pretty close range of dps. Then when planning content, it’s easier to consider mechanics and overall damage to challenge said kits and sustain rather than plan every dungeon around DRK so they don’t give healers too much of a migraine. Don’t want to believe they would? Then why change anything with that viewpoint.

Powercreep is only applicable if they never changed anything to accomodate the shift, when everyone has their version of a decent kit, suddenly it’s possible to more readily plan around that, rather than tear down a good tank just because. Besides just being sad, when will the nerfs end? Oh this class is doing good? Nerf every job until eventually the content has to be nerfed because every tank is godawful. Id rather not repeat Dark Souls 2 balance, thank you very much.

[MikoRemi]

I may understand you enjoy current warrior, but it's currently a big issue with how it's designed at least it went and strayed from its identity so much and feels like it makes no sense currently. I'm also not advocating for trashing warrior but in general tanks like warrior should get a overhaul in it's design to fit more into it's identity

(Cant fit the whole quote here, text limit)
When content is able to readily challenge sustainability of tanks if they all had equal amounts, that's when the damage oriented healing would come into play to help support. This assumption is purely if they never changed anything, yet the amount of dooms they're adding into content lately that require cleansing is already an indicator that they're watching.

Invigorating allies with a war rally/willpower? Not that hard to imagine in a fantasy world. They could be selfish but we lose the too angry to die mentality which is just fun. If you don't like that then that's a personal view. We got holy magic from PLD, special cartridges from GNB, there's room for special magical rallying.

That's only considering AOE sustain which is just one piece of content. In general bossing where attacks can actually start hitting hard, the sustain helps take some pressure off healers like the Zeromus stack buster, or our individual tankbusters, or someone eats a stray X and I can at least see if Nascent can prevent death. Healers are mainly bored because they're given very little to do, and that's a fix for Healer's to consider in their threads.

WAR is currently awesome, it tends to be awesome at the end of every patch though so that's nothing new, and I've been around since Stormblood, and have seen how it progressed in general from ARR and HW. It's only an issue now because two of the tanks aren't as sustainable and have their own issues with their kit as a whole(hi triple down, hi TBN being at lvl 70). At the very least, I will respect that you aren't one of those people making it their mission to delete WAR from the game, but it's not hard using a little imagination to help with the fantasy. DRK can devour souls and blood to get their sustainability and fuel their life force, there you go.

[GoatOfWar]

Imagine a world where every tank could have proper sustain, nice kits that came at proper levels, and pretty close range of dps. Then when planning content, it’s easier to consider mechanics and overall damage to challenge said kits and sustain rather than plan every dungeon around DRK so they don’t give healers too much of a migraine. Don’t want to believe they would? Then why change anything with that viewpoint.

Powercreep is only applicable if they never changed anything to accomodate the shift, when everyone has their version of a decent kit, suddenly it’s possible to more readily plan around that, rather than tear down a good tank just because. Besides just being sad, when will the nerfs end? Oh this class is doing good? Nerf every job until eventually the content has to be nerfed because every tank is godawful. Id rather not repeat Dark Souls 2 balance, thank you very much.

I strongly suspect this is moreso about not wanting necessary Warrior nerfs than it is about wanting other tanks to be good.
Warrior doesn't just break current content.. It trivialises old ultimates, where it is now the 5th dps in Uwu with almost it's full defensive kit available while Dark knight doesn't even get it's party wide until 76.
In my static we run 3 dps 1 warrior comps for dungeons both new and old because it's optimal. People are doing no healer runs of ultimates in Warrior/Paladin setups already, how much further do you think we can push the ridiculous sustain? I don't think putting another tank on Warrior's level would be a good idea. Yeah, i want them to nerf Warrior, and nerf it properly. It won't make your job bad. It just means you don't get to be overpowered anymore.
They don't need to rework the entire game to suit the stupid sustain, they just need to nerf warrior.