Dark Knight needs serious help

[Rithy255]

Dark Knight is supposed to be damage focused, not sustain focused. I play all the tanks and i can safely say that they ALL trivialize content, but DRK can shred bosses way faster than the War or Pld can. They have potent self heals because they need it. Gunbreaker feels fine to me to me but i play that for the ff8 respect and don't really "main" that job. Also...LIVING DEAD gives you self healing that puts warriors to abject SHAME. 3ish attacks and your health is full and you are no longer doomed and you have the invuln. TBN is absolutely busted for your damage output. Its okay that the job may not click with you but complaints seem very uninformed. like i feel like you played the job at lvl 70 or 80 one time and just said "this sucks cuz its not my unga bunga". DrK is ALL about the damage tank job fantasy. you shouldnt be playing it for regens. you should be playing it to feel like a badass that doesn't need them.

I play gunbreaker if i want to be the DPS tank, Considering war/pld is doing more outside raid buffs then DRK, you have to be very dependent on buff jobs to even out damage other tanks in the first place.

I don't know I feel like I can shred bosses pretty much at the same pace on any other tank as the difference is so small, people aren't saying "this sucks its not my unga bunga" you are playing a functional warrior with more ogcds... I think dark knight is bad because it plays too much like the unga bunga.

[Shurrikhan]

Dark Knight is supposed to be damage focused, not sustain focused.

According to what? It's only had significant DPS advantages incidentally, and has spent a equal time with the greatest sustain ceiling of any tank, at least in AoE (see DA-AD <> Quietus spam in AoE).

I play all the tanks and i can safely say that they ALL trivialize content, but DRK can shred bosses way faster than the War or Pld can.

Dark Knight has the lowest raw damage of any tank, at every percentile, and the lowest buffed/synergetic damage until Max percentile. In 99.9% of cases... WAR, PLD, and GNB all "shred bosses faster" than DRK can.

They have potent self heals because they need it.

WAR and PLD do not "need" potent self heals. They already do more damage than DRK. WAR did not also need about 40% more, and PLD about 25% more, sustain than DRK atop that.

It simply feels thematically appropriate for WAR's sustain to be a bit more built around its own output, as per its old 'healing for a % of damage dealt' gimmick as to represent that "thrill of battle" concept, and for PLD to have above average external support available to it.

It's not a balancing act between damage and sustain, though, or they'd have less sustain than DRK since they presently out-damage DRK.

Also...LIVING DEAD gives you self healing that puts warriors to abject SHAME.

Living Dead is a 5-minute cooldown.
Bloodwhetting is a 25-second cooldown.

TBN is absolutely busted for your damage output.

TBN has no significant positive net impact on one's damage output.

Its okay that the job may not click with you but complaints seem very uninformed.

Ironic.

DrK is ALL about the damage tank job fantasy.

Which is why it has... the least damage?

you shouldnt be playing it for regens.

I'm still searching for any remotely frequent suggestion to add a HoT to DRK's kit...

you should be playing it to feel like a badass that doesn't need them.

"Big damage, no sustain" doesn't much carry a damage advantage after Weakness. And if that added damage doesn't risk death and isn't draining at least as much rDPS from its healers through added GCD heals, it then ends up just literally overpowered. It's going to inherently tends towards imbalance more than just about any other way of varying a job's identity.

Damage is not a balanceable identity in the present context, nor almost any theoretical context.

[GoatOfWar]

Dark Knight is supposed to be damage focused, not sustain focused.

And yet, Dark knight ranks at the bottom now. Dark knight is the worst tank in every regard right now. Streamers had their ego's hurt when another tank dealt 2% more damage so they buffed Warrior's damage to be higher unless Dark knight gets a billion party buffs during it's burst. At which point, they do about the same. But they can't just buff Warrior, because then that would break the tank balance completely. So they also buffed Paladin and Gnb's damage. And now there's nothing Dark knight does better than anyone else. Quite the contrary, it has the worst of just about everything right now.

I'm starting to feel forced to play Warrior because it's a strictly easier to play version of Dark knight that does everything better.

[MikoRemi]

Sounds a bit like an overgeneralization. I've never met anyone like that and generally from what I've seen, it's nice to have a DRK around for that crazy damage which they still bring.
Reprisal being DRK seems to be only in HW, by the time I was around in SB everyone had it so that's not a WAR specific problem.
Most of the people I know have an issue with TBN coming way too late, not it being unfair.
The DPS issue was a big thing with P8S, overtuned as it was but it did show a glaring disparity that needed fixing. Now there's no worrying about lockout anymore. It just so happens that the devs are late buffing DRK's sustain outside of making Living Dead an actual good invuln after two expansions.

Barbarian tanks are too angry to die but PLD's have quite a good support kit(outside of Cover still being nerfed, rest in peace). The identity DRK should try to follow I already mentioned on the other thread. Lean more into MP management and focusing more on just being a powerhouse with shields and offensives, and getting some sustain through souls and blood. GNB are the cracked cousins that try fitting more into their burst window than mitigating normally but that's how they roll.

DRK could benefit from getting patched up along with GNB, and PLD is already a pretty solid tank that's always a pleasure to see. Selfish is trying to bring others down just to make yourself feel better. That much is already known from the sheer WAR hate and skewing of data. But hey, if you want to pretend WAR's hate DRK just because, disregard this post then. I'd love to see it become a deadlier force personally and most people I know are glad when it gets its overdue buffs.

[GoatOfWar]

Sounds a bit like an overgeneralization. I've never met anyone like that and generally from what I've seen, it's nice to have a DRK around for that crazy damage which they still bring.
Reprisal being DRK seems to be only in HW, by the time I was around in SB everyone had it so that's not a WAR specific problem.
Most of the people I know have an issue with TBN coming way too late, not it being unfair.
The DPS issue was a big thing with P8S, overtuned as it was but it did show a glaring disparity that needed fixing. Now there's no worrying about lockout anymore. It just so happens that the devs are late buffing DRK's sustain outside of making Living Dead an actual good invuln after two expansions.

Barbarian tanks are too angry to die but PLD's have quite a good support kit(outside of Cover still being nerfed, rest in peace). The identity DRK should try to follow I already mentioned on the other thread. Lean more into MP management and focusing more on just being a powerhouse with shields and offensives, and getting some sustain through souls and blood. GNB are the cracked cousins that try fitting more into their burst window than mitigating normally but that's how they roll.

DRK could benefit from getting patched up along with GNB, and PLD is already a pretty solid tank that's always a pleasure to see. Selfish is trying to bring others down just to make yourself feel better. That much is already known from the sheer WAR hate and skewing of data. But hey, if you want to pretend WAR's hate DRK just because, disregard this post then. I'd love to see it become a deadlier force personally and most people I know are glad when it gets its overdue buffs.

You must not be very active in the FF sphere if you think that most War players genuinely care about tank balance.
The bald streamer and warrior playerbase have already established that damage should not be a factor in balance because that wouldn't benefit them, so that's not going to happen.

[MikoRemi]

You must not be very active in the FF sphere if you think that most War players genuinely care about tank balance.
The bald streamer and warrior playerbase have already established that damage should not be a factor in balance because that wouldn't benefit them, so that's not going to happen.

It's more of DRK needs other actual positive changes but ok buddy.

[SerophisRagnarok]

Dark Knight and Gunbreaker are both damage tanks but they are apples and oranges to each other. I like both of them. its the difference between a GCD focus and off GCD focus. The damage diff is like 5%. You're splitting hairs while I'm talking about job fantasy which square has stated is their priority. you can have your 5 percent. I like my bigass sword. and as far as damage goes, Tanks and healers are the bottom 40% of total damage to bosses. I'd guess that tanks are probably about 30 percent of that 40, so a 5 % dmg diff in 30 percent of the max damage done to a boss...its not even worth stating as an argument against Dark Knight. As far as the "less functional warrior" argument...idk warrior bores me to tears and I don't think it plays like Dark Knight at all. Warrior feels really safe to play at all levels. Dark Knight feels...less safe. The lack of excessive over self healing (which everyone hates apparently) gives Dark Knight an exciting razor's edge feeling while playing it. I think Gunbreaker skirts on that edge as well but not to the extreme that Dark Knight does.

[Rithy255]

Dark Knight and Gunbreaker are both damage tanks but they are apples and oranges to each other. I like both of them. its the difference between a GCD focus and off GCD focus. The damage diff is like 5%. You're splitting hairs while I'm talking about job fantasy which square has stated is their priority. you can have your 5 percent. I like my bigass sword. and as far as damage goes, Tanks and healers are the bottom 40% of total damage to bosses. I'd guess that tanks are probably about 30 percent of that 40, so a 5 % dmg diff in 30 percent of the max damage done to a boss...its not even worth stating as an argument against Dark Knight. As far as the "less functional warrior" argument...idk warrior bores me to tears and I don't think it plays like Dark Knight at all. Warrior feels really safe to play at all levels. Dark Knight feels...less safe. The lack of excessive over self healing (which everyone hates apparently) gives Dark Knight an exciting razor's edge feeling while playing it. I think Gunbreaker skirts on that edge as well but not to the extreme that Dark Knight does.

I like rotational complexity, I don't find pressing buttons in your burst then going back to 1, 2, 3 enjoyable, at least warrior keeps up their damage buff. The most fun I had on a tank was previous paladin before it became easier down to fit the burst meta, It actually felt like you were maintaining a rotation that could also change depending on the fight, It was honestly one of the most hardest tanks to play at the highest of levels which gave the job a low skill floor but a high skill celling which is healthy for the game.

In reality both bores me, I think I'd enjoy warrior more if it had less sustain and more gauge options (overpower being removed) and have some more actual buttons I pressed, APM to me doesn't make a tank more interesting. If we want to talk about "job fantasy" why isn't the berserker tank the top dps? Dark knights OG job fantasy was to be a actual DPS, Neither is really consistent, when I think of a "dark knight" to me it's a class that slowly drains their target down, uses magic attacks ect. I don't think the "job identity" should be burst every 120 minutes then go back to pressing 1, 2, 3 blood spiller

DRK vs GNB, Gunbreaker personally feels like they do the "weave" busy tank a lot better because they don't have all their ogcds at once, they feel fun and high APM, I'd much prefer dark knight had alternate combos and paths then the current playstyle but that's just me I guess. I don't mind if it remains busy but it's core GCD and down time is so boring I rather be playing warrior at that point (and I don't like warrior lol).

I agree warrior is boring and has excessive self healing (PLD to a extent needs to also cut down on some self healing), but my main point is if dark knight is meant to be the high DPS tank that's cutting through enemies then why is it doing the same damage as PLD/WAR? It doesn't even have a niche in it's current form, If Dark Knight is meant to be a risky tank then it should have a small dps advantage over war/pld.

[SerophisRagnarok]

I like rotational complexity, I don't find pressing buttons in your burst then going back to 1, 2, 3 enjoyable, at least warrior keeps up their damage buff. The most fun I had on a tank was previous paladin before it became easier down to fit the burst meta, It actually felt like you were maintaining a rotation that could also change depending on the fight, It was honestly one of the most hardest tanks to play at the highest of levels which gave the job a low skill floor but a high skill celling which is healthy for the game.

In reality both bores me, I think I'd enjoy warrior more if it had less sustain and more gauge options (overpower being removed) and have some more actual buttons I pressed, APM to me doesn't make a tank more interesting. If we want to talk about "job fantasy" why isn't the berserker tank the top dps? Dark knights OG job fantasy was to be a actual DPS, Neither is really consistent, when I think of a "dark knight" to me it's a class that slowly drains their target down, uses magic attacks ect. I don't think the "job identity" should be burst every 120 minutes then go back to pressing 1, 2, 3 blood spiller

DRK vs GNB, Gunbreaker personally feels like they do the "weave" busy tank a lot better because they don't have all their ogcds at once, they feel fun and high APM, I'd much prefer dark knight had alternate combos and paths then the current playstyle but that's just me I guess. I don't mind if it remains busy but it's core GCD and down time is so boring I rather be playing warrior at that point (and I don't like warrior lol).

I agree warrior is boring and has excessive self healing (PLD to a extent needs to also cut down on some self healing), but my main point is if dark knight is meant to be the high DPS tank that's cutting through enemies then why is it doing the same damage as PLD/WAR? It doesn't even have a niche in it's current form, If Dark Knight is meant to be a risky tank then it should have a small dps advantage over war/pld.

it had its role in shadowbringers...idk why things changed.

[Rithy255]

it had its role in shadowbringers...idk why things changed.

In shadowbringers the dps tanks were gnb/pld, DRK in shadowbringers was one of strong the main tank options because TBN was the most powerful short mit, Things change each expansion theirs never be one "DPS" tank outside GNB who's consistently been top for damage for the past two expansions, even then it's not really it's only identity
Dark Knight being a high dps tank is something that came from the start of EW, where other tanks kept getting buffed now all tanks pretty much do the same damage.