Dark Knight needs serious help

[Oizen]

Back in ShB I was saying the new DRK chassis was a decent base they could build on in future expansion.
I was so young and naive back then.

But anyway, DRK needs an identity and distinct gameplay back to make it interresting to play.

I still think it is, but the issue is they have shown they have no interest in expanding it further outside of more ogcds.

I think DRK could be tied together nicely if it had a GCD that consumed all accumulated darkside and did damage/provided healing based on how much was consumed. Give it a 30s CD and it gives you something to do between bursts, gives the job the much needed healing its missing, and makes darkside a real resource that you'd care about overcapping.

Maybe throw some of those cool PVP features of Salted earth into PVE.
I really don't think the job is that far off, and between the two I view it as the more fun version of WAR. Its just it never really gets the attention or push it needs to make it feel complete.

[Derio]

I find WAR very boring yet it is the only tank that has god tier self sustain. Honestly they could fix DRK self sustain issue by putting Abysall drain on a 30s cooldown or just make it cost 2k mp and be fine. That would solve the dungeon issues. For single target simply just bring back sole survivor and make it to where if the enemy doesnt die you get half the resources when the timer expires.

[Zairava]

I still think it is, but the issue is they have shown they have no interest in expanding it further outside of more ogcds.

I think DRK could be tied together nicely if it had a GCD that consumed all accumulated darkside and did damage/provided healing based on how much was consumed. Give it a 30s CD and it gives you something to do between bursts, gives the job the much needed healing its missing, and makes darkside a real resource that you'd care about overcapping.

Maybe throw some of those cool PVP features of Salted earth into PVE.
I really don't think the job is that far off, and between the two I view it as the more fun version of WAR. Its just it never really gets the attention or push it needs to make it feel complete.

Sounds akin to Death Strike (Blood Death Knight on WoW), where damage accumulated over X amount of seconds is used to determine how much healing you receive, but instead it's Darkside. To use Scourge as an ability for this, it could be as such:

Scourge:

• Deals X damage up to a potency of Y
• Heals the user up to a potency of Y

*Damage and healing is based on the amount of Darkside currently left on the timer, and uses up to Z upon execution

To go one step further. Perhaps we could make Scourge aoe while inside of Salted Earth, but the healing isn't per mob, but per use?

[SerophisRagnarok]

Dark Knight is supposed to be damage focused, not sustain focused. I play all the tanks and i can safely say that they ALL trivialize content, but DRK can shred bosses way faster than the War or Pld can. They have potent self heals because they need it. Gunbreaker feels fine to me to me but i play that for the ff8 respect and don't really "main" that job. Also...LIVING DEAD gives you self healing that puts warriors to abject SHAME. 3ish attacks and your health is full and you are no longer doomed and you have the invuln. TBN is absolutely busted for your damage output. Its okay that the job may not click with you but complaints seem very uninformed. like i feel like you played the job at lvl 70 or 80 one time and just said "this sucks cuz its not my unga bunga". DrK is ALL about the damage tank job fantasy. you shouldnt be playing it for regens. you should be playing it to feel like a badass that doesn't need them.

[Rithy255]

Dark Knight is supposed to be damage focused, not sustain focused. I play all the tanks and i can safely say that they ALL trivialize content, but DRK can shred bosses way faster than the War or Pld can. They have potent self heals because they need it. Gunbreaker feels fine to me to me but i play that for the ff8 respect and don't really "main" that job. Also...LIVING DEAD gives you self healing that puts warriors to abject SHAME. 3ish attacks and your health is full and you are no longer doomed and you have the invuln. TBN is absolutely busted for your damage output. Its okay that the job may not click with you but complaints seem very uninformed. like i feel like you played the job at lvl 70 or 80 one time and just said "this sucks cuz its not my unga bunga". DrK is ALL about the damage tank job fantasy. you shouldnt be playing it for regens. you should be playing it to feel like a badass that doesn't need them.

I play gunbreaker if i want to be the DPS tank, Considering war/pld is doing more outside raid buffs then DRK, you have to be very dependent on buff jobs to even out damage other tanks in the first place.

I don't know I feel like I can shred bosses pretty much at the same pace on any other tank as the difference is so small, people aren't saying "this sucks its not my unga bunga" you are playing a functional warrior with more ogcds... I think dark knight is bad because it plays too much like the unga bunga.

[SerophisRagnarok]

Dark Knight and Gunbreaker are both damage tanks but they are apples and oranges to each other. I like both of them. its the difference between a GCD focus and off GCD focus. The damage diff is like 5%. You're splitting hairs while I'm talking about job fantasy which square has stated is their priority. you can have your 5 percent. I like my bigass sword. and as far as damage goes, Tanks and healers are the bottom 40% of total damage to bosses. I'd guess that tanks are probably about 30 percent of that 40, so a 5 % dmg diff in 30 percent of the max damage done to a boss...its not even worth stating as an argument against Dark Knight. As far as the "less functional warrior" argument...idk warrior bores me to tears and I don't think it plays like Dark Knight at all. Warrior feels really safe to play at all levels. Dark Knight feels...less safe. The lack of excessive over self healing (which everyone hates apparently) gives Dark Knight an exciting razor's edge feeling while playing it. I think Gunbreaker skirts on that edge as well but not to the extreme that Dark Knight does.

[Rithy255]

Dark Knight and Gunbreaker are both damage tanks but they are apples and oranges to each other. I like both of them. its the difference between a GCD focus and off GCD focus. The damage diff is like 5%. You're splitting hairs while I'm talking about job fantasy which square has stated is their priority. you can have your 5 percent. I like my bigass sword. and as far as damage goes, Tanks and healers are the bottom 40% of total damage to bosses. I'd guess that tanks are probably about 30 percent of that 40, so a 5 % dmg diff in 30 percent of the max damage done to a boss...its not even worth stating as an argument against Dark Knight. As far as the "less functional warrior" argument...idk warrior bores me to tears and I don't think it plays like Dark Knight at all. Warrior feels really safe to play at all levels. Dark Knight feels...less safe. The lack of excessive over self healing (which everyone hates apparently) gives Dark Knight an exciting razor's edge feeling while playing it. I think Gunbreaker skirts on that edge as well but not to the extreme that Dark Knight does.

I like rotational complexity, I don't find pressing buttons in your burst then going back to 1, 2, 3 enjoyable, at least warrior keeps up their damage buff. The most fun I had on a tank was previous paladin before it became easier down to fit the burst meta, It actually felt like you were maintaining a rotation that could also change depending on the fight, It was honestly one of the most hardest tanks to play at the highest of levels which gave the job a low skill floor but a high skill celling which is healthy for the game.

In reality both bores me, I think I'd enjoy warrior more if it had less sustain and more gauge options (overpower being removed) and have some more actual buttons I pressed, APM to me doesn't make a tank more interesting. If we want to talk about "job fantasy" why isn't the berserker tank the top dps? Dark knights OG job fantasy was to be a actual DPS, Neither is really consistent, when I think of a "dark knight" to me it's a class that slowly drains their target down, uses magic attacks ect. I don't think the "job identity" should be burst every 120 minutes then go back to pressing 1, 2, 3 blood spiller

DRK vs GNB, Gunbreaker personally feels like they do the "weave" busy tank a lot better because they don't have all their ogcds at once, they feel fun and high APM, I'd much prefer dark knight had alternate combos and paths then the current playstyle but that's just me I guess. I don't mind if it remains busy but it's core GCD and down time is so boring I rather be playing warrior at that point (and I don't like warrior lol).

I agree warrior is boring and has excessive self healing (PLD to a extent needs to also cut down on some self healing), but my main point is if dark knight is meant to be the high DPS tank that's cutting through enemies then why is it doing the same damage as PLD/WAR? It doesn't even have a niche in it's current form, If Dark Knight is meant to be a risky tank then it should have a small dps advantage over war/pld.

[SerophisRagnarok]

I like rotational complexity, I don't find pressing buttons in your burst then going back to 1, 2, 3 enjoyable, at least warrior keeps up their damage buff. The most fun I had on a tank was previous paladin before it became easier down to fit the burst meta, It actually felt like you were maintaining a rotation that could also change depending on the fight, It was honestly one of the most hardest tanks to play at the highest of levels which gave the job a low skill floor but a high skill celling which is healthy for the game.

In reality both bores me, I think I'd enjoy warrior more if it had less sustain and more gauge options (overpower being removed) and have some more actual buttons I pressed, APM to me doesn't make a tank more interesting. If we want to talk about "job fantasy" why isn't the berserker tank the top dps? Dark knights OG job fantasy was to be a actual DPS, Neither is really consistent, when I think of a "dark knight" to me it's a class that slowly drains their target down, uses magic attacks ect. I don't think the "job identity" should be burst every 120 minutes then go back to pressing 1, 2, 3 blood spiller

DRK vs GNB, Gunbreaker personally feels like they do the "weave" busy tank a lot better because they don't have all their ogcds at once, they feel fun and high APM, I'd much prefer dark knight had alternate combos and paths then the current playstyle but that's just me I guess. I don't mind if it remains busy but it's core GCD and down time is so boring I rather be playing warrior at that point (and I don't like warrior lol).

I agree warrior is boring and has excessive self healing (PLD to a extent needs to also cut down on some self healing), but my main point is if dark knight is meant to be the high DPS tank that's cutting through enemies then why is it doing the same damage as PLD/WAR? It doesn't even have a niche in it's current form, If Dark Knight is meant to be a risky tank then it should have a small dps advantage over war/pld.

it had its role in shadowbringers...idk why things changed.

[Rithy255]

it had its role in shadowbringers...idk why things changed.

In shadowbringers the dps tanks were gnb/pld, DRK in shadowbringers was one of strong the main tank options because TBN was the most powerful short mit, Things change each expansion theirs never be one "DPS" tank outside GNB who's consistently been top for damage for the past two expansions, even then it's not really it's only identity
Dark Knight being a high dps tank is something that came from the start of EW, where other tanks kept getting buffed now all tanks pretty much do the same damage.

[Shurrikhan]

Dark Knight is supposed to be damage focused, not sustain focused.

According to what? It's only had significant DPS advantages incidentally, and has spent a equal time with the greatest sustain ceiling of any tank, at least in AoE (see DA-AD <> Quietus spam in AoE).

I play all the tanks and i can safely say that they ALL trivialize content, but DRK can shred bosses way faster than the War or Pld can.

Dark Knight has the lowest raw damage of any tank, at every percentile, and the lowest buffed/synergetic damage until Max percentile. In 99.9% of cases... WAR, PLD, and GNB all "shred bosses faster" than DRK can.

They have potent self heals because they need it.

WAR and PLD do not "need" potent self heals. They already do more damage than DRK. WAR did not also need about 40% more, and PLD about 25% more, sustain than DRK atop that.

It simply feels thematically appropriate for WAR's sustain to be a bit more built around its own output, as per its old 'healing for a % of damage dealt' gimmick as to represent that "thrill of battle" concept, and for PLD to have above average external support available to it.

It's not a balancing act between damage and sustain, though, or they'd have less sustain than DRK since they presently out-damage DRK.

Also...LIVING DEAD gives you self healing that puts warriors to abject SHAME.

Living Dead is a 5-minute cooldown.
Bloodwhetting is a 25-second cooldown.

TBN is absolutely busted for your damage output.

TBN has no significant positive net impact on one's damage output.

Its okay that the job may not click with you but complaints seem very uninformed.

Ironic.

DrK is ALL about the damage tank job fantasy.

Which is why it has... the least damage?

you shouldnt be playing it for regens.

I'm still searching for any remotely frequent suggestion to add a HoT to DRK's kit...

you should be playing it to feel like a badass that doesn't need them.

"Big damage, no sustain" doesn't much carry a damage advantage after Weakness. And if that added damage doesn't risk death and isn't draining at least as much rDPS from its healers through added GCD heals, it then ends up just literally overpowered. It's going to inherently tends towards imbalance more than just about any other way of varying a job's identity.

Damage is not a balanceable identity in the present context, nor almost any theoretical context.