Dawntrail Wishlist top 3 desired healer additions

[BRVV]

You aren't "using logic to understand" my opinion. Using logic to understand my opinion would look like this:

"Ren, in your own words, what do you think about X?"

I'm simply reading your post. That's basically it. There is no point in going on with this.

I'm so tired of you being everywhere and being toxic with every post.

By your own logic you can't assume i'm toxic. You don't know the meaning of my texts, you didn't ask me.

[Renathras]

I'm simply reading your post. That's basically it. There is no point in going on with this.

By your own logic you can't assume i'm toxic. You don't know the meaning of my texts, you didn't ask me.

Considering your posts of late have been following and replying to me in different threads to tell me how toxic I am...I think that's a comfortable enough inference.

Also, you didn't have to remove your sig. I wasn't making fun of it. I agree the points you had in it are good points. I was just saying you should hold to them yourself.

I agree with you on one thing:

There's no point in going on with this. Which is why I've tried to respectfully decline your continued baiting. I'm not very good at that, mind you, but I'm trying to get better. Note my last post, I even stuck it in HB since I'd rather engage with the topic. Look at what I didn't put in HB. That's what I'd rather talk about. Look at what you seem to want to talk about.

While I want to talk about the topic of the healer situation overall, you want to talk about me.

EDIT:

That is to say, if you're following someone around to reply to them calling them out in every post, that is kinda toxic. Especially when they're actually trying to engage with the topics in the given threads and your harassment of them is derailing them.

Anyway, in the spirit of that:

The sooner we take this anger we have for others and direct it towards the real culprits - the developers - nothing will ever change. We’ll just keep arguing in circles…like we did in Shadowbringers, and Stormblood, and Heavensward…long before Renathras even appeared on the forums…

I don't think anger is the solution. Anger just gets dismissed at this point.

I think it's more coming together with people, working on solutions most everyone agrees on, that gives everyone something they want - that is, actual compromises - and continuing to express the problems we perceive without hyperbole or emotion. Just continue to lay out the issues, and why they're issues, and suggestions for what could fix them that gives something to everyone and doesn't leave anyone out in the cold.

Maybe it's just naivete on my part, but I think that's the better way to do it. At the very least, would lead to a lot less animosity between players at each other.

[BRVV]

Considering your posts of late have been following and replying to me in different threads to tell me how toxic I am...I think that's a comfortable enough inference.

You are allowed for inference, no one else is. Got it. Thanks for admitting it.

Also, you didn't have to remove your sig. I wasn't making fun of it. I agree the points you had in it are good points.

Not everything i say or do is a response to you. Someone else did that.

I'm not very good at that, mind you, but I'm trying to get better.

I respect that.

Note my last post, I even stuck it in HB since I'd rather engage with the topic. Look at what I didn't put in HB. That's what I'd rather talk about. Look at what you seem to want to talk about.

While I want to talk about the topic of the healer situation overall, you want to talk about me.

Gaslighting again. You started these discussions and then it's me of course. Sorry for responding to you. That is my biggest fault. I should just ignore you. It can also be interpreted as you responding and disagreeing with me but trying to hide it from me to "win the argument" or hide it while also getting to respond.

If you would be only interested in topics there wouldn't be so many of your posts talking about semantics and NOT the topic.

Met at least one ice mage (1 i can remember), i don't think i had a thunder mage yet. Impact mage is probably a missread of the spells... or someone not reading the updated spells?

I would really like a second raise on each healer. That skill would have a lower CD but higher MP cost... or something like that. Basically a situational other Rez. I know it's not much.

The return of defensive buffs would also be interesting. Or how about a skill that increases healer actions that can not be applied to oneself? You would need to use it on the other healer in harder content. Although that would be difficult to balance since you can have problems healing because the other healer doesn't buff you.

[ForsakenRoe]

I think it's more coming together with people, working on solutions most everyone agrees on, that gives everyone something they want - that is, actual compromises - and continuing to express the problems we perceive without hyperbole or emotion. Just continue to lay out the issues, and why they're issues, and suggestions for what could fix them that gives something to everyone and doesn't leave anyone out in the cold.

Been there, tried that. Didn't work, because of a refusal to entertain the idea that maybe, just maybe, I had the foresight to get the obvious points of 'compromising' out of the way before posting the idea, rather than wasting time in a back and forth that was wholly foreseeable

As for your EX issues, A: I said names plural so please don't assume you're somehow singled out for an attack, you're not that special, and B: movement during healing checks is like, one of only a few ways to make a healing check interesting. Have it hit harder, have it hit faster, or find ways to prevent the player from healing. Those are the options. If you had nothing going on except the constant raidwide pulses, you'd be able to solve it by just pressing Medica over and over and that's... pressing Glare over and over with a different coat of paint. Sorry to hear your cohealer was jumpy but that's the nature of the beast when playing with randoms

The return of defensive buffs would also be interesting. Or how about a skill that increases healer actions that can not be applied to oneself? You would need to use it on the other healer in harder content. Although that would be difficult to balance since you can have problems healing because the other healer doesn't buff you.

Interesting idea, but the issue with it is that it's wholly dead in solo content. Now, a buff that is, for example, 'increases healing output by 20%, or 30% when used on another healer' so it can be used both on yourself, or shared for greater effect, could be interesting. Or perhaps just keeping it as a shareable, with equal effectiveness, such that you could decide on the fly if it's better to use your version on the cohealer, and then they use theirs on themselves at a later point too? EG putting both onto a SCH/SGE at staggered timings so that they have stronger shielding potential for prog

Though at that point, we could also have Synastry do something like that, so it's not such a dead button itself

edit: the impact thing, back in SB Scatter>Scatter (or Impact if it procced) was the AOE rotation, we didn't have VerElement 2, maybe it was that, or maybe as you say, they didn't read the tooltips and didn't realize that our rotation has gone from Impact being the 'fast cast' to it being the 'slow hard hit you want to dualcast'

[BRVV]

Interesting idea, but the issue with it is that it's wholly dead in solo content. Now, a buff that is, for example, 'increases healing output by 20%, or 30% when used on another healer' so it can be used both on yourself, or shared for greater effect, could be interesting. Or perhaps just keeping it as a shareable, with equal effectiveness, such that you could decide on the fly if it's better to use your version on the cohealer, and then they use theirs on themselves at a later point too? EG putting both onto a SCH/SGE at staggered timings so that they have stronger shielding potential for prog

Yeah that's actually better. Then it could actually just be a passive for the already existing self healing buff like Zoe.

I thought of something else: healing MP. Only certain jobs would get anything out of that though. We could get either a "heal X MP of target" abilities or "transfer X MP to target" or maybe an ability that increases mp regen?

[AmiableApkallu]

I'm a nearly lone voice (a few others on rare occasion have joined me) here in thinking we should do both; increase healing in encounters but also diversify the healing Jobs so they appeal to different types of players like they did in ARR.

I'd say it's quite the opposite, actually. You're not the lone voice; this is the general thread of agreement. The discussion and disagreements are on exactly how to go about doing that all; you might be the lone voice for your specific takes on these topics.

For example, I already linked to comments by ty and Sebazy on how incoming damage might be increased or made more interesting. Here's a comment by Shurrikhan about new damage types, which one might imagine could become something for healers to engage with if we saw those as incoming damage types. Here's ForsakenRoe being okay with the relatively higher healing requirements of the new MSQ trial.

But you'll also see pushback on making the incoming damage so high that healers are reduced to heal spam, because that'd play barely differently than nuke spam. You'll see pushback on any suggestion that doesn't allow for the possibility of mistakes to be made in anything that isn't Extreme or higher.

In terms of diversifying healers, the best proposals pick something for a healer to make an "identity" out of and lean into it, thus distinguishing it from the other healers. But if "gap between skill floor and ceiling" is something to diversify on, then there's pushback on the notion that the extreme end of "no gap" is worth including. Similarly, if, for lack of a better term, "DPS complexity" is something to diversify on, then there's pushback on the notion that the extreme end of "zero complexity / current state" is worth including. And mind, these are both scales, so there is room for diversity to be had. There's a huge space between "zero complexity" and "BLM transpose lines complexity"; there's a huge space between "no skill gap" and "BLM-style skill gap."

[ForsakenRoe]

Yeah that's actually better. Then it could actually just be a passive for the already existing self healing buff like Zoe.

I thought of something else: healing MP. Only certain jobs would get anything out of that though. We could get either a "heal X MP of target" abilities or "transfer X MP to target" or maybe an ability that increases mp regen?

Man have we really gotten so old that we've forgotten about Mana Shift lmao

This is all just feeding back into 'Stormblood design did so many things better', I think. It's an interesting idea, and Ewer for AST could have that effect again (along with a way to increase damage so as to avoid BalanceFishing). Would be interesting for WHM to be able to Thin Air their cohealer, for example, or AST transfer their MP regen via Synastry, or... idk some alternative Fairy Tether that restores MP instead of HP like a reverse Osmose. IDK what SGE could have. Maybe it could have 'nothing lmao' and it is the 'selfish' one

Though re: Stormblood design, I think there's several other things that we lost from those days that were interesting. Refresh and Tactician were not it. Bland boring 'press on CD' buttons, they can stay gone IMO. But things that promote choice, like Palisade and Apocatastasis, those were cool and IDK why we had to lose those. Admittedly, yes, it means giving even more mitigation to the non-healers, but they were singletarget so it was a way for DPS to feel involved with tankbusters too

edit (god i wish the posts would update in realtime so this wouldn't happen)

I'd say it's quite the opposite, actually. You're not the lone voice; this is the general thread of agreement. The discussion and disagreements are on exactly how to go about doing that all; you might be the lone voice for your specific takes on these topics.

Here's ForsakenRoe being okay with the relatively higher healing requirements of the new MSQ trial.

But you'll also see pushback on making the incoming damage so high that healers are reduced to heal spam, because that'd play barely differently than nuke spam. You'll see pushback on any suggestion that doesn't allow for the possibility of mistakes to be made in anything that isn't Extreme or higher.

sod it, too long

The reason I (probably others) have any disagreement at all with certain proposed methods of solving the issues the role faces is a combination of futureproofing-ness and of devtime. That is, how much extra effort does the devteam have to put in to do that solution, and how long will the solution last? For raising the healing required, I think it'd take a lot more effort to do, probably screws up a lot more old content (eg old ultimates, min ilvl etc) than other proposals, and worst of all, it's very possible that we'd outgear the solution's 'increase' and we'd be back where we are now. If SE can find a way to, for example, increase healing required of me such that I'm kept sufficiently busy, in all levels of content, while simultaneously not causing the content to be too challenging to newer/less skilled/disabled players, then I'd take it. I'm not against 'more healing required' as the solution full stop, I'm against it because I don't believe it will work, there are too many conflicting pieces that cannot work together, too much devtime required to keep old content from getting mangled by the change, and too much chance of it falling apart with the slightest whiff of a gear upgrade

You linked to my comment on the new trial. If by 'okay' you mean 'I performed alright despite the unexpected healcheck' then yeh. If you were to ask me my opinion on how good the increased healing requirements were, I'd say, like I did in that post, that 'its cool, but I expect that's mostly because we dont know the fight yet. Once we do, it'll likely return to business as usual'. I will say, one thing that is nice about it is, given that it's at the end of the expansion, it won't suffer from outgearing it quite as badly as a lot of other content does, since a fair amount of players will already have 650 gear via tomes/660 from raids. Though, this goes back to a thought I have, that crafted gear should be equal ILVL to the previous tier's BIS, not +10 over it. That way, we'd see less ILVL increase over a full expansion, we'd outgear things a bit slower, and things would be more challenging for longer. Apparently that particular take is a bit too spicy for SE though

I'd indeed push back on 'change the button we spam from 1 to 2', partially because it's same garbo, different paint, but also because one of the two doesn't come with the inherent chance of 'this has caused an immediately executed party wipe' like the other could. Yeh, you could have the whole 'oh not enough damage now enrage', but at least with that you get to see enrage. You get to see the mechanics leading up to it. Failing to deal enough damage in Thordan Unreal is going to cause enrage at the end. Failing to heal enough for the Dragoon Dives during the Knights phase means you don't get to see past that, or Ultimate End, or try any of phase 3. There's a world of difference with the 'lenience' of the two. Also, it's much easier for other roles to pick up slack regarding damage, than it is for them to cover for missing healing

[BRVV]

Man have we really gotten so old that we've forgotten about Mana Shift lmao

I didn't play during SB and it shows XD

Most of what i come up with seems to have been in the game in some form before. I honestly don't know what they can do with healers in DT as long as they keep damage so low and don't give healers more mit or dps options. Except of course: even more healing abilities.

[ForsakenRoe]

I didn't play during SB and it shows XD

Most of what i come up with seems to have been in the game in some form before. I honestly don't know what they can do with healers in DT as long as they keep damage so low and don't give healers more mit or dps options. Except of course: even more healing abilities.

Yep, and the problem with that is, if we have increased healing requirements but also get more healing tools, then the needle doesn't move, we're still where we are now. We need the increased requirements without the extra tools, to apply more pressure to the tools we already have. The removal of damage actions in SHB stings for more than just 'cos we lost some buttons', their removal leads to where we are now, where healers seem to be unable to have any damage buttons, like the design space of 'new damage thing' is locked off to the role. When you consider that 'we didn't really know what to do with SCH' and then it got Expedience, I have to just wonder, like... they didn't know what to do with the healer nicknamed 'the green DPS', after they removed all it's DPS buttons? Yeh???

It's pretty obvious to me that they have no design space left, because they closed the door on a huge swathe of options (anything damage related, how it interacts with our heals, or our gauges, etc) and then they painted themselves into the corner. And I expect that they believe somewhat, that adding any new damage buttons would be perceived as an acknowledgement that the SHB direction was a flop. Still, it has to be said once again: There were 'almost' no complaints about healers being 'boring' in SB (maybe a few, but not like today). There were plenty complaining that WHM's gauge sucked, but the number of people complaining about 1button spam in Hells Lid for their EX roulette was... Well, I can't say zero with certainty because there might have been some. But it was not anywhere near the level of what we see now. And of course, the number of people who want old AST cards back. Mit, resource restoration, increased GCD speed, increased Crit and of course, flat damage. Can't have it back exactly as it was, it was imbalanced. But we could have those unique effects again, while also having them deal damage in unique ways to keep 'RDPS parity' between the cards. For example, if Arrow made you autoattack faster, and Bole made you reflect damage, then it doesn't matter if you get those, or Balance, or another card. They'd all be balanced to give the same RDPS contribution

[SpiralMask]

my main top-of-the-wishlist wish for healers in general is [something interesting to do when healing isnt needed]. literally anything. dps plate-spinning like old SCH's dots, decently complex buff juggling like old AST's cards (befor the class lost it's buffs, duration modifiers, RR, etc), enemy debuff-juggling like Blu can sort of do (between party dmg-ups like peculiar light to damage-downs like bad breath, status effects that actually function/pierce resistance buildup etc--and with a "real" class' design direction not designed to be self-sabotaging could be pretty neato overall), placeable stuff of the above (people have talked about healer leylines for ages as an example), more indepth meter-management skills for everyone (let's get some faerie gauge gainer/spender actions, since all those got removed! for some reason! get more adders skills that arent identical potency GCDs, more lily-spending options, whatever!)...

i don't care what, as long as it's not spamming a classes preferred flavor of glare for 85%+ of every fight in the entire game (with occasional single-dot application), levels 1-90.