PL Woes

[Lux_Rayna]

As far as referencing XI. Nms/Hnms were hard for about 6 months, then anyone knew how to fight them. Same with sea mobs, sky mobs, etc. I'm not trying to debate this though, but saying RPGs don't put you into endgame in THREE DAYS.

You're talking about old-school vs new school. There was a time when RPG's were all about the time-sink, but thats not how it works anymore in the 21st century. Every series is streamlining itself to fit more with the mainstream ideal, which is a focus on endgame content, and little focus on the levelling process. That is just how it is right now, an RPG is *not* what an RPG used to be.

All of those games you mentioned? Old as dirt. They are the best rpgs in the last 20 years or so, but they're not making much money anymore. Ppl are playing games like WoW, Skyrim/Oblivion, latest in those weird action rpg hybrids (like Mass Effect, KOTR), where it doesn't really take all that long to reach the end. At all. In fact, the latest generation of games can be sped through within a few days to a week max. No joke. That is just how it is right now. Sure I agree an RPG should be like what it used to be, but you need to accept the fact that the "RPG" has been changed and redefined. Its no longer about the levelling, its about the gear, the bosses, and the raids/dungeons.

Its a bit of a double edged sword. On one hand this has made RPG's a lot more mainstream and a lot more accessible. Because they are so viable now for widespread success, a lot of money is going into them whereas before it was a small niche industry that graced you with a new game once every....few years? Now there's RPG's out every few months it seems like, its quite a change of pace. At the same time RPG lovers from years past have come to find out that while RPG's are enjoying higher popularity and higher budgets, the mechanics are changing severely. As a result, the niche community has been divided between those that embrace the changes and those that hate them.

In the end, RPGs follow the money now...and the money says RPG's are better without the long grind. It sucks but it is what it is. At times I enjoy the focus on post-cap content, rather than the grind part. But there are also times I wish I could enjoy that long and adventurous quest to endgame, filled with lots of parties, dungeons, etc etc. Things change, RPGs are what they used to be and wont be for a long time. Might as well get used to it.

[NoctisUmbra]

Of course it doesn't. The battle system is fucked.

Battle system itself is fine. Needs some tweaks here and there, but I would call it fucked. Not even close. I don't even see how you connect this matter to the battle system, unless of course what you mean to refer to is the claiming system- in which case I would still say it's perfectly fine.

You can elaborate on what aspects of the battle system you find not your liking if you want though- especially by relating it to PL so as to stay on topic.

[Xoo]

...and as fans of the RPG genre, we're supposed to sit back and accept this? That we get swindled out of $50 for what used to amount to days upon days, if not weeks, of entertainment? Whoa, just what are you advocating here, Lux?

[Peptaru]

Stuff.

The only objection I have to your post is telling me what I NEED to do. I know the changes you pointed out, but I appreciate the condescending tone like I wouldn't know everything you said. They need to not call them RPG if they're not what RPGs are. F/TPF would be fine (first/third person fighter) because it isn't RPG. Games that claim to be RPGs need to remain RPGs.

We see how well its working, too, don't we. Every day the forums are filled with bitching and whining about having nothing to do. I know, I know.... 2.0 will solve every problem ever! It won't. PL makes an already way-to-fast game even faster.

[Xoo]

Battle system itself is fine. Needs some tweaks here and there, but I would call it fucked. Not even close. I don't even see how you connect this matter to the battle system, unless of course what you mean to refer to is the claiming system- in which case I would still say it's perfectly fine.

You can elaborate on what aspects of the battle system you find not your liking if you want though- especially by relating it to PL so as to stay on topic.

Not sure what difference it would make, or why I even should, as the only explanation you give for your argument is, "It's fine". Uhh, sure?

Fine, let me elaborate (just so you can repeat yourself and say no, it's fine...); The system we have now, in spite of any given you might incorporate into the player skill equation (IE: Everyone's a pro - only idiots need mid-game play to learn things that most can figure out regardless.), restricts any possible need to discover what little depth exists to the jobs as they are in order to be efficient. Your tank leads the group around gathering a group of mobs, where once your DD spam anything, everything, or nothing at all and still remain effective. Nobody pays any attention at all to enmity. Your WHM follows the group, casts Curaga, Stoneskin, and if needed PoM+Cura where again little attention toward enmity is needed.

Take all that, and with regard to PL, you don't even learn that much. It doesn't matter though, grinding teaches you nothing about the game, and so it is for the rest of the community.

[Vaer]

Also comparing things to FFXI is pointless. FFXI at that point was a full game with no huge glaring issues and they had time to focus on content and the like.

Actually, FFXI had glaring issues, just there was no path of communication between the player base and the dev team. Whenever they came out with new content you basically had to deal with it. There were no official forums to complain on, while there were fansites the little communication there was were interviews that happened once or twice a year.

The communication was so bad sometimes it took forever to get bugs fixed. i.e Resist debacle, Sneak Attack proccing from the front (Not gonna lie, I lol'd), etc.

Pretty much "don't like it, deal with it" attitude of the dev team. The dev team pretty much did whatever they wanted. This was back then when there weren't a lot of MMO choices though, times have changed. You can't just ignore half/all of your player base anymore.

[NoctisUmbra]

Not sure what difference it would make, or why I even should, as the only explanation you give for your argument is, "It's fine". Uhh, sure?

Fine, let me elaborate (just so you can repeat yourself and say no, it's fine...); The system we have now, in spite of any given you might incorporate into the player skill equation (IE: Everyone's a pro - only idiots need mid-game play to learn things that most can figure out regardless.), restricts any possible need to discover what little depth exists to the jobs as they are in order to be efficient. Your tank leads the group around gathering a group of mobs, where once your DD spam anything, everything, or nothing at all and still remain effective. Nobody pays any attention at all to enmity. Your WHM follows the group, casts Curaga, Stoneskin, and if needed PoM+Cura where again little attention toward enmity is needed.

Take all that, and with regard to PL, you don't even learn that much. It doesn't matter though, grinding teaches you nothing about the game, and so it is for the rest of the community.

So you just described a pulling scenario commonly used in dungeons to get through them efficiently/quickly. You left out any kind of boss battle completely, where managing enmity and learning an effective rotation with your jobs, as well as proper positioning all play vital roles. Uhh, sure.

Even then, all you're really talking about is the content design.

[Gukswar]

he's point is--- IF THERE IS NO POWER LEVEL-
At least a noob will be better then a noob Rank level 1 at level 50

Power level creates: Rank 1 noob at 50

No power level creates: Rank 50 noob at 50!

[Xoo]

Its called reality. I know hardcore gamers are slightly disconnected with it, but the real world operates on one thing alone: money. And for an RPG, money comes from pleasing as many ppl as possible to generate as many sales as possible. The master of this was WoW, there's a reason it had so many subscribers. Even ppl who thought RPG's were for losers were playing WoW. My college football team? All WoW players. Almost everyone in my dorm played WoW. Even girls who never played videogames played WoW. WoW took all of those traditional RPG niche elements and said "fuck em".

Video games are an industry, which means they are a business. Once one business sets a new sales standard, the old standard is unacceptable to potential investors. Investors make or break your company, without investors you are going nowhere, and you are going bankrupt. This is how capitalism works. Now that new standards have been set, that becomes the goal. You need to explain to your investors how your product can duplicate or surpass the success of a WoW. If you fail you lose your job quite possibly. You lose your job you lose your livelihood.

The reality check is that its not about gamers its about consumers. Gamers *were* the only consumers so it just seemed like it was all about them. Thats not the case anymore. Some smart guy realized you can sell video games to anyone, not just nerds and niche fanboys. Thats why we have Wii, XBOX Kinect, stupid exercise games, watered down RPGs, etc etc. Why? Cuz that makes money. You don't make money, you are out of a job. So what am I advocating? I'm advocating everyone get connected to the real world, outside of RPG land, and recognize that every industry is run by sales. And sales are achieved by reaching as many ppl as possible. News Flash: RPG fans are in the minority.


EDIT: Honestly Peptaru that wasn't even my intention. Sorry it came across that way.

Oh, you mean we lost video games to the jocks, eh? Some corporate bastards learned that if they made stupid games for stupid people, they'd play them too! Still don't understand why I have to accept this 'reality'.

[Lux_Rayna]

Oh, you mean we lost video games to the jocks, eh? Some corporate bastards learned that if they made stupid games for stupid people, they'd play them too! Still don't understand why I have to accept this 'reality'.

Because you can't do anything about it lol. No matter how much you gripe, complain, protest, they will always cater to the largest demographic because thats what their job depends on. You don't have any choice but to accept it. We lost out, and until we become the majority we can't make games how we like them. WoW, Wii, those sorts of inventions/innovations changed *everything*.