I'm One Of The Filthiests Of Casuals And Even I Can See How Dumbdown FF14 Has Become!

[Renathras]

Blm filler are thundercloud procs, xeno and paradox while you wait for mp ticks in UI not... their entire rotation lmao

Generally, "filler rotation" is the term; yes, that would include the entire standard rotation. That's how filler is normally defined.

And procs can't be part of "filler" by definition since they aren't always available to fill with.

An example would be PLD having a filler rotation of 1-2-3-Atonement-A-A-Holy Spirit. That's their "entire rotation lmao", but it also happens to be their filler.

Tell me, what would you define PLD's "filler" as? If "entire rotation" isn't allowed, what's the "filler"?

It's not Atonement, since you can't use that until you complete a 1-2-3 combo. While Holy Spirit CAN be used AS a filler unbuffed, this is a DPS loss. So what is PLD's "filler", in your own words? I would like to know that so I can determine what BLM's "filler" is by your definition.

WAR's filler rotation is 1-2-3 (Storm's Path) with Storm's Eye to refresh your self-buff. That's its "entire rotation lmao". "entire rotation" excluding burst kind of IS the definition of filler.

So, a comparison:

Right, but Snow's definition was:

The problem is new SMN is all filler phase, even the Demi’s

I would say (as I did above) that the Primals and their Gemshine/Astral Flow would constitute the filler, just like BLM's B3, B4, Pdox, F3, F4, F4, F4, Pdox, F4, F4, F4, Desp is its filler. Laryzur felt that there was "basically no filler" since ShB SMN's filler was Ruin 3, and you only use one of those per minute (occasionally 2 to reset or due to spell speed shenanigans), but I would include the rotational Primal "mini-phases" as filler for the purposes of this definition. They are the parallel to, say, WAR/PLD/etc's 1-2-3 rotation and associated stuff (like Atonement/Holy Spirit on PLD).

Though I would argue that a lot of players find the Primal summons more satisfying than Royal Authority.

Exactly, other classes that have “spammy” burst phases both have fail states and build towards something (or in DRK’s case has 10,000 oGCD’s) SMN has none of these options, you physically cannot fail it’s rotation short of dying because SMN has no fail state

Again, "fail state" is not a valid definition of filler. Besides which, there are fail states. Start casting Ruby Rite and have to interrupt due to movement. That's a fail state. Cast two Ruin 3s at the end of the minute and drop Ruin 4. That's a fail state. "no fail state" seems like a very unworkable definition for the concept of "filler".

You don’t generally see them on tanks and healers

I don't think this is really true. WAR dropping Storm's Eye or WHM dropping Dia are technically fail states. WAR pressing 1-2-2 or 1-3 or overcapping on Rage are fail states. And those are just their rotational fail states. Failing to heal unavoidable damage and having players KO is also a fail state. The issue is that "fail state" can be defined...very broadly. Even if we're just talking rotational, though, Healers and (moreso, generally) Tanks also have fail states. The main difference is that their fail states are going to be less detrimental to DPS than damage dealer fail states. Which...kinda makes sense.

I’m pretty sure they were building on my point from the previous page where I answered rens assertion that “aspected ruin 3 isn’t filler” with the point that it was because SMN doesn’t have a fail state

Again, bad definition, but even there, SMN does have fail states.

I don’t understand how someone can’t see its ruin 3 in all but name.

I'm not trying to be pedantic but...because it's not ruin 3.

Is Atonement on Paladin Fast Blade? or Riot Blade? or Royal Authority? Is it "Fast Blade in all but name"? It has different use conditions, and it does have strategic gameplay, albeit thin. Same with SMN. People generally don't DO IT, but say you pop Ifrit and suddenly realize you're about to have to move. You can cast your Ruin 3 (shorter cast) and then use your minute's Ruin 4 (for the full movement GCD) to move. Or if you use Ruby Rite x2 but then have to stay at a distance from the boss (had this happen with ZodEx when he does his diagonal dash across the screen - bad time to use Ifrit's charge). You can 100% push that by filling with Ruin 4 and Ruin 3 and THEN, after the mechanic, use your Ifrit charge/slam combo. Go into Titan and use 1-2-1-2- realize you're going to need movement for GCD 6 or so from now; fill in with Ruin 3 before finishing up Titan. Again, people generally don't DO IT, but you can move your absolute filler spell (Ruin 3) anywhere in your rotation except between Ifrit's charge and slam specifically.

And for the love of god, not everything needs to build gauge. I feel Job Gauge additions were a curse the game has never fully recovered from.

No that's what leveling is for, current SMN should not exist period.

Disagree. I don't quite agree with Zeastria that we explicitly need Jobs for people not good at mmos (though that's not a terrible idea), but Jobs of all kinds of difficulty levels and damage types (DoTs, gauges, upkeep buffs, flexible rotations like SMN and PLD, etc) is 100% something that should exist.

Current SMN should exist period.