I'm One Of The Filthiests Of Casuals And Even I Can See How Dumbdown FF14 Has Become!

[OgruMogru]

Blm filler are thundercloud procs, xeno and paradox while you wait for mp ticks in UI not... their entire rotation lmao

[Renathras]

Blm filler are thundercloud procs, xeno and paradox while you wait for mp ticks in UI not... their entire rotation lmao

Generally, "filler rotation" is the term; yes, that would include the entire standard rotation. That's how filler is normally defined.

And procs can't be part of "filler" by definition since they aren't always available to fill with.

An example would be PLD having a filler rotation of 1-2-3-Atonement-A-A-Holy Spirit. That's their "entire rotation lmao", but it also happens to be their filler.

Tell me, what would you define PLD's "filler" as? If "entire rotation" isn't allowed, what's the "filler"?

It's not Atonement, since you can't use that until you complete a 1-2-3 combo. While Holy Spirit CAN be used AS a filler unbuffed, this is a DPS loss. So what is PLD's "filler", in your own words? I would like to know that so I can determine what BLM's "filler" is by your definition.

WAR's filler rotation is 1-2-3 (Storm's Path) with Storm's Eye to refresh your self-buff. That's its "entire rotation lmao". "entire rotation" excluding burst kind of IS the definition of filler.

So, a comparison:

Right, but Snow's definition was:

The problem is new SMN is all filler phase, even the Demi’s

I would say (as I did above) that the Primals and their Gemshine/Astral Flow would constitute the filler, just like BLM's B3, B4, Pdox, F3, F4, F4, F4, Pdox, F4, F4, F4, Desp is its filler. Laryzur felt that there was "basically no filler" since ShB SMN's filler was Ruin 3, and you only use one of those per minute (occasionally 2 to reset or due to spell speed shenanigans), but I would include the rotational Primal "mini-phases" as filler for the purposes of this definition. They are the parallel to, say, WAR/PLD/etc's 1-2-3 rotation and associated stuff (like Atonement/Holy Spirit on PLD).

Though I would argue that a lot of players find the Primal summons more satisfying than Royal Authority.

Exactly, other classes that have “spammy” burst phases both have fail states and build towards something (or in DRK’s case has 10,000 oGCD’s) SMN has none of these options, you physically cannot fail it’s rotation short of dying because SMN has no fail state

Again, "fail state" is not a valid definition of filler. Besides which, there are fail states. Start casting Ruby Rite and have to interrupt due to movement. That's a fail state. Cast two Ruin 3s at the end of the minute and drop Ruin 4. That's a fail state. "no fail state" seems like a very unworkable definition for the concept of "filler".

You don’t generally see them on tanks and healers

I don't think this is really true. WAR dropping Storm's Eye or WHM dropping Dia are technically fail states. WAR pressing 1-2-2 or 1-3 or overcapping on Rage are fail states. And those are just their rotational fail states. Failing to heal unavoidable damage and having players KO is also a fail state. The issue is that "fail state" can be defined...very broadly. Even if we're just talking rotational, though, Healers and (moreso, generally) Tanks also have fail states. The main difference is that their fail states are going to be less detrimental to DPS than damage dealer fail states. Which...kinda makes sense.

I’m pretty sure they were building on my point from the previous page where I answered rens assertion that “aspected ruin 3 isn’t filler” with the point that it was because SMN doesn’t have a fail state

Again, bad definition, but even there, SMN does have fail states.

I don’t understand how someone can’t see its ruin 3 in all but name.

I'm not trying to be pedantic but...because it's not ruin 3.

Is Atonement on Paladin Fast Blade? or Riot Blade? or Royal Authority? Is it "Fast Blade in all but name"? It has different use conditions, and it does have strategic gameplay, albeit thin. Same with SMN. People generally don't DO IT, but say you pop Ifrit and suddenly realize you're about to have to move. You can cast your Ruin 3 (shorter cast) and then use your minute's Ruin 4 (for the full movement GCD) to move. Or if you use Ruby Rite x2 but then have to stay at a distance from the boss (had this happen with ZodEx when he does his diagonal dash across the screen - bad time to use Ifrit's charge). You can 100% push that by filling with Ruin 4 and Ruin 3 and THEN, after the mechanic, use your Ifrit charge/slam combo. Go into Titan and use 1-2-1-2- realize you're going to need movement for GCD 6 or so from now; fill in with Ruin 3 before finishing up Titan. Again, people generally don't DO IT, but you can move your absolute filler spell (Ruin 3) anywhere in your rotation except between Ifrit's charge and slam specifically.

And for the love of god, not everything needs to build gauge. I feel Job Gauge additions were a curse the game has never fully recovered from.

No that's what leveling is for, current SMN should not exist period.

Disagree. I don't quite agree with Zeastria that we explicitly need Jobs for people not good at mmos (though that's not a terrible idea), but Jobs of all kinds of difficulty levels and damage types (DoTs, gauges, upkeep buffs, flexible rotations like SMN and PLD, etc) is 100% something that should exist.

Current SMN should exist period.

[VentVanitas]

I think this is the problem, though:

People hate on new SMN when what they really hate is old SMN being gone. Then make absolute statements like the above "current SMN should not exist" which aren't defensible.

Being upset old SMN is gone is absolutely understandable. I do sincerely hope they add a new Caster with old SMN's type of gameplay.

...but that's no argument against CURRENT SMN being a good Job.

Current SMN is a very well designed Job. It's one of the few in the game that "read your tooltips" is actually good advice (instead of "read an online guide") to learn how to play it.

being immediately understandable doesn't make it an all around well designed job, or rather it shouldn't be the only determining factor. yes, it is a merit worth attributing to SMN, but I still feel like that is only circumstantial to how frictionless the whole job is with any of its systems.

I don't think it's well designed that Carbuncle could be cut from the kit altogether with little to no consequence. all it ends up doing is making Radiant Aegis tedious to use because carby keeps popping out of existence and I can only imagine it's because the dev team wants to limit the amount of entities a player can create.

I don't think it's well designed that Aetherflow is just there when now would have been the best time to tie them back to demi-summons so the chokehold they have on the rotation can feel at least a little more fluid or cohesive. in its current state it's nothing more than vestigial damage buttons giving the vague impression of a resource gauge. my thoughts for Ruin 4 are the exact same, it feels like it's just there because the dev team couldn't think of any other way to integrate it into the rotation.

I don't think demi-summons are well designed, because they're mostly just ShB demis made to be automated to disguise the fact that they didn't actually fix pet jank. furthermore, being flat cooldowns just makes the rotation unnecessarily rigid and it limits the design of the job for future changes.

I don't think gems are well designed, they don't last long enough for any implications of having to choose/order them to be meaningful, especially when one crit Akh Morn can render what little optimization there is to be had with gems moot. additionally, like everything else, they don't interact with anything. they don't have to for it to be an enjoyable mechanic, but in the context of everything else in the kit it only piles onto the problems of its systems being disconnected and just. there.

I know you didn't ask for it, but considering your reply I felt obligated to make a SMN related post that isn't just "old job good new rework bad."

[Renathras]

sure, but EW SMN came at the cost of what was generally perceived to be a difficult job with no similar alternative for what it offered. the alienation is inexcusable.

I think this is the problem, though:

People hate on new SMN when what they really hate is old SMN being gone. Then make absolute statements like the above "current SMN should not exist" which aren't defensible.

Being upset old SMN is gone is absolutely understandable. I do sincerely hope they add a new Caster with old SMN's type of gameplay.

...but that's no argument against CURRENT SMN being a good Job.

Current SMN is a very well designed Job. It's one of the few in the game that "read your tooltips" is actually good advice (instead of "read an online guide") to learn how to play it.

There are no hard jobs in this game…

Only hard jobs to optimize.

This, on the other hand, I think is just wrong.

While difficulty is different for different people...no, there are hard Jobs in this game. There are some Jobs that have pretty high skill floors and very wide ranges between a 1% and 99%. Generally speaking, a Job's difficulty can be roughly approximated by the width between 1% and 99%, or 25% and 75%. The wider that bar is, when compared to the other Jobs within the role, the harder the Job is. Yes, there are some hard Jobs in this game. There are ALSO hard to optimize Jobs. RDM is not a hard Job, but it IS hard to optimize.

"There are no hard jobs" is a weird flex, but isn't reflective of reality.

And yet people managed to do Titan Hardmode for their relic with far more latency and far less understanding of the game and it's intricacies.

Not everyone did Titan Hardmode and got Relics when that was current content. Not to mention the game itself was far more lenient. Titan Hard back then, if it was released today, would be considered a braindead Trial by modern standards.

so smn is popular and thats bad? and your fix is to make is harder so no one wants to play it so that they will be forced to play other hard classes when they just want a easy class to enjoy the game on?

do you people hear yourselves?

yeah its good to have hard classes for people taht like that , but we need easy classes for those that like that too, and even if one type is more popular than the other doesn't mean you are wrong for liking one or the other..

This. /thread

If SMN was a new class and old SMN still existed then nobody would have a problem

I would love to believe this.

But it's not true.

How do I know? Every discussion of healers insisting that they all need to be harder, even SGE which was just introduced with the playstyle it has right now. The people saying outright that new SMN itself is a badly designed Job and must be changed no matter what. People saying new SMN is hurting RDM and BLM representation (RDM moreso).

Those arguments wouldn't go away just because old SMN was still in the game.

I very much DO wish to believe if new SMN was introduced as a new Job, people would be fine with it. But I don't think so. I think a lot of the people complaining about it being too easy, it harming RDM's representation, it being "badly designed", and at least some people (if not including you) arguing about fail states; I think those people would still be harping on new SMN even if it had been introduced as a stand alone Job.

[Sebazy]

why does everything have to revolve around your experience?
as if other people's experience is worthless if you yourself has not seen/heard/experienced the same.

Because I think you're making up unrealistic scenarios to try and push your point.

If it was a valid issue, it would be easy enough to find cases of this happening in huge mega threads such as tales from DF.

Yet it isn't. Why is that.

Not everyone did Titan Hardmode and got Relics when that was current content. Not to mention the game itself was far more lenient. Titan Hard back then, if it was released today, would be considered a braindead Trial by modern standards.

I'm not sure which point I tried to suggest that *Everyone* got their Titan HM clear in so how about you go derail someone else's point? Take that word out of your mouth and sit back down son.

Now we've got the required 'Renathras is doing a Ren moment' out of the way: On my server at least, I'd wager that a solid majority who put some effort in managed it. Why can I say this with confidence?

Because on Ragnarok we had a huge series of Linkshells called Attack on Titan. Towards the end it ran to something like 5 or 6 filled out shells and we were actively having to ask people to leave if they had all the relics they wanted. It was vast and it would have multiple teams of helpers farming for other peoples Relics all night, every night. It was well organised and very effective despite mostly being filled with average joes rather than stuffed full of the then relatively small hardcore coil community.

You mean like Titan Unreal was considered braindead too? Lenient like getting knocked off the edge and not being able to be raised in many a fight back then?

I mean sure, Titan HM would be easier now, with todays improved server latency, with todays oGCD filled burst healing tools, with todays movement friendly jobs, with todays plugins and timelines, with todays nigh bottomless MP and with todays Youtube guides. But trying to downplay it's challenge back in the day when we had none of that shows your ignorance and lack of understanding for what it is.

Maybe you need to go watch some more Mr Happy guides to fill you in.