Let's talk about the upcoming DRG rework...

[remiff]

It's always both.

You will not please or anger everyone with a class rework.

"Yes, but some reworks are much less appreciated than others, at least for the one involving the summoner.
You only needed to visit the balance Discord in the dedicated summoner section to understand that a significant portion of the summoner community simply hated it because it didn't seem fully polished.

The people who like it now are generally those who don't play it much or not as their main, or those who play it because it requires no thinking, has easy optimization, and extreme mobility. Therefore, for difficult battles, it's a better choice against the red mage/black mage for learning without much hassle.

Certainly, there will always be people who are satisfied and others who are not, but it's a fact that some reworks are more appreciated than others.

[Renathras]

I'm kind of with the last several posters.

Any time you change things, you risk alienating the people that enjoy them. Sure, it's possible you will please some people that do, and you may entice people that don't play it to start, but on net, is it better or worse? And even if it is on net better, does that still justify alienating those who were left behind and are unhappy now that were perfectly content before?

If there was only one Job in the game, this would make more sense, but often reworks try to make a Job appeal to more people than it did before, but usually those people already had other options and the people who liked the Job before are losing theirs but not gaining new ones, so now have nothing.

This is why I think new Jobs being added to fill voids is often a good answer, but reworking, especially majorly reworking, existing Jobs is not. New SMN as a new Job (say Evoker or something) would probably have been well received, but ditching old SMN for it was not. A lot of people liked old MNK's positionals and don't like new MNK's Nadi system. The PLD change has been the most supported overall, but even it is kind of middling and a lot of people that like it still say it should have been a new added Job or they miss the old one or parts of it. Then you have things like 5.0 SCH and AST that people haven't stopped complaining about for 4 years, and often complain about WHM as well, despite its change there being generally lauded as better than the SB form of the Job.

I'm not sure there's been a rework to date that has really really high levels of praise from large swaths of the playerbase as a whole or the people who played the Job before. SMN and WHM are the only ones that became significantly (statistically, that is) more popular after the change, though SMN in particular is also one of the more alienating of said changes.

[Valence]

The people who like it now are generally those who don't play it much or not as their main, or those who play it because it requires no thinking, has easy optimization, and extreme mobility. Therefore, for difficult battles, it's a better choice against the red mage/black mage for learning without much hassle.

I just want to bounce on this part in particular and I'll be a little mean with possible blanket statements, but that's part of my personal experience in EW savage and ultimate so far: DNC and now especially SMN attracts a colossal amount of raiders that want to get carried by the job. I'm not just speaking about people picking up the least path of resistance, which I can understand since I play rPhys to a degree and can't be arsed with cast times or positionals (they're not what interests me in rotations), but people that literally want to get carried by the job. Every single static or group I've been in but a single one has had that SMN player that keeps everybody back, doesn't even try, is lazy, and doesn't do their homework. I don't know if it's my luck that's been absolutely atrocious, but it's been a sight to behold.

This is also what makes me oppose even harder to that terrible design philosophy advocating for easy, medium and hard jobs within roles. Not only it generates huge imbalances in job play ratios (50ish % dancers within rphys and 50ish % summoners within casters in Anabaseios? hello??), but it also inserts players with wildly different skills or involvement levels into groups that are obviously not for them, where they slip in carried by their job until it becomes a glaring issue.

Here, probably unfair, but I said it and it feels good to vent about it.

More seriously though, brainless jobs make people complacent, lazy, and entitled, and I don't believe it's good for raiding overall.

[Aravell]

This is also what makes me oppose even harder to that terrible design philosophy advocating for easy, medium and hard jobs within roles.

I honestly cannot agree with easy jobs in the DPS role. Medium to hard, sure, but not easy. As a DPS, your only job is to do damage, your damage rotation should not be super easy to do to the point of barely any thought required, there should be complexity and depth to it.

[Ggwppino]

I just want to bounce on this part in particular and I'll be a little mean with possible blanket statements, but that's part of my personal experience in EW savage and ultimate so far: DNC and now especially SMN attracts a colossal amount of raiders that want to get carried by the job. I'm not just speaking about people picking up the least path of resistance, which I can understand since I play rPhys to a degree and can't be arsed with cast times or positionals (they're not what interests me in rotations), but people that literally want to get carried by the job. Every single static or group I've been in but a single one has had that SMN player that keeps everybody back, doesn't even try, is lazy, and doesn't do their homework. I don't know if it's my luck that's been absolutely atrocious, but it's been a sight to behold.

This is also what makes me oppose even harder to that terrible design philosophy advocating for easy, medium and hard jobs within roles. Not only it generates huge imbalances in job play ratios (50ish % dancers within rphys and 50ish % summoners within casters in Anabaseios? hello??), but it also inserts players with wildly different skills or involvement levels into groups that are obviously not for them, where they slip in carried by their job until it becomes a glaring issue.

Here, probably unfair, but I said it and it feels good to vent about it.

More seriously though, brainless jobs make people complacent, lazy, and entitled, and I don't believe it's good for raiding overall.

Damn if you're right!
But I can tell you this because I experience it firsthand, literally a pov.
When I played sB or shB I was inclined to do my homework: to understand before the prog how to pre-position myself (not only for the mechanics but also to reduce movements) and to articulate the mechanics well.
With EW I stopped doing it, but not because I don't want to, but because it is no longer necessary, however leading me to have a less profound knowledge of mechanics, now it's just a matter of solving the mechanics, before I had to optimize the mechanics and understand them well.

However, I would like to point out in favor of smn players who often make mistakes by saying that very frequently, I swear, you get lost in a glass of water: always spamming the same button makes you lose track of time and I often found myself not knowing what mechanics we have arrived at or being so addicted to spam that, I swear, I stare at the monitor and mentally disconnect (Especially when you have repeated the mechanics so many times that the fight is done by muscle memory).

It's a double-edged sword: I realize that I get the mechanics right before the others, I learn them much earlier pratically, but when these become clear to everyone and we move on next mechs, I'm the one who gets old mechs fail more than everyone, since I look at the monitor with a dull look.
And this honestly pisses me off. Because I realize that I'm wasting time first of all for myself and then for my entire group. and Because I realize that it's not because I greeded too much or positioned myself badly, but because I was looking at the monitor foaming at the mouth and literally not paying attention.


Honestly I'm not very confident in the drg rework, after seeing the mch, brd, pld, smn and healer reworks (but actually seeing the progress of the new dps who are receiving mini rotation like tank).
I am of the opinion that when one does a rework he must do it considering various factors:
1) The usefulness of the class -> if this is lost the player feels diminished and no longer feels like an integral and useful part for the fights but just a filler. It's a mere number. (Yes, I'm just looking at the physranged ones, which could be replaced by something else if it weren't exclusively for the party bonus)
2) the playerbase that played that class
3) still be consistent with the degree of optimization of the previous one, at most increase it. A rework must, although different, leave people with the same feeling.

If designers don't want to respect these factors, create a new class and don't piss off those who have always played it.

[Valence]

I honestly cannot agree with easy jobs in the DPS role. Medium to hard, sure, but not easy. As a DPS, your only job is to do damage, your damage rotation should not be super easy to do to the point of barely any thought required, there should be complexity and depth to it.

To be fair, they're infinitely harder than tank or especially healer rotations...

... except for new SMN and possibly DNC.

[ZiraZ]

Rubbish, not necessary and their excuse for doing it is a straight up lie, the job is not skill deadlocked in any way.
Wish they would just scrap whatever they have been working on and left DRG alone, and went back to work on SMN instead which was very clearly never finished, we don't need the current SMN cancer affecting other jobs.

[Llynethil]

Ehhhh MCH is nothing but wait for drill/aa/chainsaw/wildfire cd's and summon queen or blastspam using heat, I like the job but it's just as, if not easier than dnc.

[Korbei]

I've never enjoyed DRG much so I've not focused on it beyond grinding FATEs mindlessly. I find it strangely convoluted. I wouldn't claim to have much insight into what people like about it or what would make it better or worse but I do feel the job could use a simplification of the nomenclature, especially with the various jumping attacks with overly dramatic names. I just want the standard off GCD Jump, a combo capping High Jump. AoE combo capping Super Jump. Spinesplitting Dive could be called Dragon Jump or something. Jumpity Jump Jump. That's what Dragoon means to me. I'd also welcome a better version of Elusive Jump that just makes you disappear into the clouds or rafters and be invulnerable for a few seconds.

I do fall into the camp of generally being anti-positional. I don't see any logical reason why Dragoon, Reaper or Samurai would benefit from attacking anywhere in particular. The polearm weapon logically does fit with line AoEs and that inherently determines what position needs to be taken up to optimize those attacks. That should be the only driver of positioning.

[Recon1o6]

Had se actually got a track record of good reworks then I'd look forward to it. Imo its stale and hasn't received anything worthwhile since the end of SB outside of wyrmwind. Level 70-90 is literally 30-50 again (jump, line attack gcd, currently neutered spineshatter, jump ogcd with aoe explosion on big cooldown) just disguised as animation upgrades and losing its single good skill expression in managing your gauge up to exactly 30s for max nastrond time. Positionals don't do anything for me given too many bosses these days dont even need positionals

Stale as it is though its one of the least crap jobs atm

Unfortunately, SE has an appalling track record and so I'm dreading it.