G-give it Back T---T; !! (Scholar Edition)

[Renathras]

Your stance is....

You were literally telling people that SCH should change and they should go play SGE if they don't like it.

But good god, no. I said IF one should change, it should be SGE. Not one MUST change and it MUST be SGE. At least get the argument right. Also:

You always say that people who want SMN to change should go play BLM, how is this different?

...when have I ever said that specifically? o.O "always" implies multiple times/frequently/all the time. I can't even remember the last time I talked with people here about SMN. But please, do show examples of me "always" saying this?

We stan a snarky king.

Hello, Kettle, how are you doing today?

Does it grieve you, to see the depths of your own weakness laid bare?

No. It grieves me to see the depths of the forums' collective weakness laid bare.

Nah, just make all healer dots AoE.

Dropping single target Aero/Dia on multiple mobs in a trash pull isn't fun and probably not optimal use of GCDs, just let me plop an instant dot on all of them and spam my holys.

Hm...that's...an interesting take. Not sure if I agree with that one, and I hate DoTs. XD

.

EDIT:

Just gonna put this here instead of carrying on:

My responses to you have been nothing but neutral.

Uh...

...gonna table this one for now:

There was no reason to add a snarky TLDR to your post, but...

You're going to have to be WAY more specific.

My first post here:

Honestly, I agree.

The "4 Healers Model" I constantly push is simple in concept, but here applies: The Healers should all play differently, so that all different kinds of players can take on the role and enjoy it. Like how Tanks have GNB as a basically Melee DPS option in the "Blue" role.

Personally, I wouldn't enjoy it, but I do think that SCH having its SB kit back would be one of the quickest ways to make a lot of currently jaded healers happy, since they'd have that option of a more DPS focused Job. While I would say that some of the kit would probably have to be pruned and some abilities combined (Fey Blessing heal added to Whispering Dawn instead of being two separate buttons, for example...?), as adding 4 buttons to SCH would make it the Job with the most actions by far, having 2 or 3 more than PLD has today...I do think it would be best for the game to do so.

I DON'T think it should be done to all healer Jobs, as some were decidedly worse then (SB WHM, and I will die on this hill, was the single worst iteration of WHM in FFXIV; EW is miles better), but SCH is one case of the SB kit probably being an improvement, as long as it gets to keep some of the things it has learned since, like Expedience and Seraph.

.

Overall, I fully support this idea. o/

Second:

Unlikely. SCH has long been meta (since...ARR?), I think every expansion SCH has been part of the meta. But it's almost always (if not always) been played less than WHM, as has AST. In some subsections of content (e.g. Savage), it can go one way or the other, but in general and overall in the playerbase, this has always been true. Even in high end content, WHM has still been represented, even when in reduced percentages. Even right now, WHM is only 3% of the top 50 finishes in the P9S, but in the rest is 20%, 19%, 11%, and 24% (P2) respectively per the abacus.

You would see a lot of players that want more DPS focus in their rotation swapping to SCH, but you'd still see a lot of the other healer types at the same time, like as not.

At the end of the day, in low end content, it genuinely doesn't matter, and in high end content, outside of specifically the speedrunning community, it's the player (since very high end players can do good on most any Job in their role and sometimes off-roles) and what they personally prefer that teams tend to take.

Right now, SCH/AST is the meta because of all the support and AST basically being "barrier-lite pure healer" making it hyper-meta, and WHM and SGE are still more played in most content in the game and somewhat healthy in representation in the top 50 kills (which IS the speedrunning community, come to think of it), and even more represented outside of it. The meta would always be SCH/AST since buffs and barriers-a-plenty, but that doesn't really change how most people play, it seems. If history is a guide, anyway.

.

So giving SCH and AST their SB kits back doesn't really have much in the way of detriment - everything has a cost as well as benefits, but it's a pretty low-cost/high net benefit thing. Making WHM back to the SB kit would be a lot higher cost/lower benefit, though, and possibly net negative.

Third post:

Uh...

...strong No.

Some people feel that way, but many don't want to be budget DPS or DPS at home or ARPG "supports". They want to be HEALERS, and this game did have that as a role in 1.X and 2.X and 3.X excepting SCH getting squirrely. Not everyone wants to be a "long range DPS" who is there just to make the other DPS players have more fun. A "support b--ch", if you will.

People wanting to HEAL on the HEALER role isn't a weird thing. People wanting to DPS on the HEALER role kinda is. But a good game can accommodate all kinds. WoW, for example, had Discipline "heal by dealing damage" Priests alongside Holy Priests. RIFT had Chloromancer Mages (heal by dealing damage) alongside more traditional "target party member, cast heal" healers. ARR did this with WHM as a healer and SCH as a support hybrid healer/DPSer. Everquest managed this 25 years ago. The idea that the only option is going "dps at home who occasionally heals the REAL dpsers so they can have fun fighting the dragon" is absurd.

(Note the EDIT was made after the following...)
To which I got this in response:

Common Renathras L, move along people.

Super long so only quoting it for the tag, but this was the fourth post, and there wasn't any TL;DR for it:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but...

(And if you meant the being cheeky at the start, that was something you said yourself...) The closest thing to a TL;DR I gave you in this post was: "Still, the point stands that a healer role not built around DPSing and DPS rotations is something entirely doable in our reality in games that revolve around combat.", which is a summary and not snarky at all. And then I agreed with you on SGE.

Maybe you meant this one, my fifth post:

That if one should change, it should be SGE, not SCH. It should be "If you want that, go play SCH" not "If you want that, go play SGE". SGE should do something else.
...
TL;DR:

I get this is one of your favorite go-to counter-arguments, but it's a REALLY bad one.

...but that wasn't snarky. It's one of your favored counter-arguments, but I feel it's a really bad one and I explained why I think it's a really bad one. There was no snark in that TL;DR. I feel this may be one of those cases where you imagine slight that didn't originate from me/that I didn't present.

Anyway, just so you know, that wasn't snark, actually. I was being entirely neutral towards you - just as you are to me - when typing that out and hitting Post Quick Reply.

Just remembered, so I figure it's worth sharing in case it slipped other people's minds too:

That's great...but that's not FFXIV. Further, that's not even how all the Tanks worked in WoW. Nor does that change what I pointed out above that Ty himself mentioned - no one's actually asking for it. You can argue about why that is or other ancillary arguments, but the fact remains, there are some healers that do want slimmed down damage kits, there aren't Tanks asking for Flash spam. When there are seriously a lot of Tanks asking for that, then we can have that discussion and start asking the Devs to implement a Flashspam Tank into the game.

Where, in this thread,...

There's just no point arguing this. You and I seem to read each other's posts and see things that the other person didn't put there, so...I guess that's that. I just don't think it's a good argument, but it's fine.

Eh, what else is new? ... but robbing Scholar of its tools and giving it nothing in return was a crime and we need to acknowledge that.

See my first post above in the first hb: I agreed with this.

I personally would like to see each healer inflict & interact differently with their DoT.

I personally would like to see healers have different damage kits, including some healer not even having a DoT. But for the love of god, no Diacloud. That sounds miserable. Aero 3 (upgrading to Banish for the theme) would be cool. Though maybe the lower level one could be Water spells instead of "Aero 3". Just have Aero 1-2-3 be one spell line for single target instant cast DoTs and Water 1-2-3 be the AOE ones (damage gain so used in single target as well) that upgrades to Banish where Aero upgrades to Dia. WHM being grounded and "routine" would be broken by stupid Diaclouds. No thank you.