I know y'all don't wanna hear this...

[Ivtrix]

Wall to wall pulls is not "the bare minimum".

[ZephyrMenodora]

Wall to wall pulls is not "the bare minimum". The fact that single pulls exist shows that single pulls is the bare minimum, mostly as there's no way to actually pull less since all members of the pack will agro together.

You're asking for something above the bare minimum then lying about what the bare minimum to falsely support your position that your ask is more fair than it is. Again, you can premake groups if you want to speedrun content.

At the same time, we are talking about some people like the poster earlier in this thread who can wall to wall and simply doesn't feel like it because they want to relax.

Know what I'd find relaxing? Just standing around pressing medica 2 every 20 seconds and not using my kit. It would sure be relaxing to just randomly press whatever on a DPS and not care at all about using skills sensibly.

But at some point what would be relaxing is just being disrespectful to the 3 other people you are playing with.

Wall 2 Wall pulling is very similar in all dungeons since HW. Mostly a straight line until you can't move. Very few trash mobs have any tricks or gimmicks that change what you are actually doing, it's just a different background and different looking mobs for the most part. So I think Wall to Wall becomes a pretty basic skill for a tank to have these days. And certainly not an insurmountable challenge given the state of how dungeons are designed lately.

[BaconBits]

Don't get into it with these types lil bro, they're like brick walls. No matter what you do or say, they will always find some way to respond with "b-b-but wall2wall bad" while also trying to justify YPYT behavior.

It isn't worth the energy.

[Renathras]

People only willing to play at bare minimum should do everyone else the favor of staying out of group finder until or unless they encounter something that cannot be done with trusts.

Can you do Expert roulette for Tomes with Trusts?

Then report them and stop pretending to be a vigilante.

I'm not the one who says anyone not playing the game the way I want is bad and should be attacked...

It's clearly not. You can live a lie if you like, but that doesn't change the fact it's not the truth. The truth is that single pulling and pressing a single AOE button would be bare minimum. What you want is something else and you're using "bare minimum" as a canard to mask that.

Also: You're one to talk about being a brick wall. I don't think I've ever seen you change your position on anything. Not that it can't happen, but I've not seen it at all.

At the same time, we are talking about some people like the poster earlier in this thread who can wall to wall and simply doesn't feel like it because they want to relax.

I suppose then we get into what the content is.

Understand, when I Tank (which is rare), I w2w unless the party can't handle it or doing older dungeons that weren't made for it. Like wall to walls in Stone Vigil tend to end poorly as Tanks don't have the mitigations they need to pull it off, there are only a few "walls" to begin with, and depending on the healer Job you get, some don't have the tools to do it. SCHs have a real hard time with it, for example, especially new ones. You also tend to get a lot of players who are either new or leveling alt Jobs, which you can quickly see with all the gray gear in their slots that's level 20-30s.

But when doing something like Expert where everyone has their full kit and is geared for it, I'll absolutely do so as my default until it becomes obvious the party isn't up for it.

As a healer (main), I'll heal wall to walls and expend as much damage as I can muster. Decided to try AST (my least favorite healer) and qued up, got Manalis, the highest level group content I'd gotten in a que prior to that on AST was HW 24 mans. Went straight to work with the kit and pulled an 80-something on the forbidden site (I don't run parsers, but I get caught in them often enough, it seems). I just roll with it and make it work. I got one Manalis run with a Tank who - and I'm not actually exagerating - didn't use a CD. I think it was a PLD. No Shelltron. No Rampart. Literally used no defensive CD the entire run. Obviously, I had to devote more to the healing side of things, but I just rolled with it. The worst part was, this Tank was w2w pulling. Without CDs. So I had to use all my CDs to make up for that. It was doable, but not what I'd call enjoyable. But I just roll with it.

But, if the Tank pulls just one pack at a time? I'm fine with it. I just will Holy/Art/Gravity/Dyskrasia more. No skin off my nose. I didn't que expecting to be done in 7 mins anyway, and the run taking 15 WHOLE minutes isn't going to ruin my day. I just roll with it, too.

I'm not against w2wing things, per se. I do feel it cheapens dungeons, I think it's stupid to even bother with trash if dungeons are just "boss hallways", and I'd rather see dungeons more like old school dungeon crawls, which things like BA/DR, and to an extent Criterion, are.

...but what I am against is the idea that w2w is "the standard" and that anyone not doing it is "bad" or "lazy" or "not doing the bare minimum".

That attitude is toxic and needs to die in a fire. If people want to speedrun, grab 3 of your best friends and run your ques that way. If you have no friends...well...then maybe you should examine that problem and ask yourself if some soul searching is in order.

We're not talking about Savages here, we're talking about casual content. If shaving off 2-4 minutes matters to you that much, don't que into them or que with your premade speedrunning buddies and have at it to your heart's content. You may even enjoy that more anyway.

My position is honestly pretty lasse faire. Again, if you're doing Savage or Ultimates, sure, don't recruit a Tank that doesn't use CDs and solo pulls in MSQ dungeons. Doesn't matter to me, but if that's your standard, more power to ya. But that's not a realistic standard outside of that.

I think people often forget once they get over a certain level of skill in games that they may be above not only the average but the majority. The rest of the game doesn't play like they do. And lacking that basic awareness is a problem.

.

(People just need to drop the ad hominems; people not liking a thing doesn't even mean they're incapable or incompetent, and people opposing what they think is a bad practice doesn't mean so, either.)

[ZephyrMenodora]

As a healer (main), I'll heal wall to walls and expend as much damage as I can muster. Decided to try AST (my least favorite healer) and qued up, got Manalis, the highest level group content I'd gotten in a que prior to that on AST was HW 24 mans. Went straight to work with the kit and pulled an 80-something on the forbidden site (I don't run parsers, but I get caught in them often enough, it seems). I just roll with it and make it work. I got one Manalis run with a Tank who - and I'm not actually exagerating - didn't use a CD. I think it was a PLD. No Shelltron. No Rampart. Literally used no defensive CD the entire run. Obviously, I had to devote more to the healing side of things, but I just rolled with it. The worst part was, this Tank was w2w pulling. Without CDs. So I had to use all my CDs to make up for that. It was doable, but not what I'd call enjoyable. But I just roll with it.

=D I just had a W2W tank today who wasn't using any cooldowns. I didn't really mind, I just had to heal more which is what I like doing anyway. Just funny you mentioned that, happens more than you'd think that some tanks even at 90 save it all for the boss that has a lot easier damage to handle than 8 mobs hitting him at once.

[Miracle_Diva]

That attitude is toxic and needs to die in a fire. If people want to speedrun, grab 3 of your best friends and run your ques that way. If you have no friends...well...then maybe you should examine that problem and ask yourself if some soul searching is in order.

That attitude is toxic and needs to die in a fire. If people want to sniff all flowers on the way, grab 3 of your best friends and run your ques that way. If you have no friends...well...then maybe you should examine that problem and ask yourself if some soul searching is in order.

Dungeons are already as boring as it gets, same formula with different skinned mobs and a bit different variation of in-out attacks. Pressing skills on 3 mobs or on 6 mobs makes no difference, it's the same buttons. At least healer gets to wake up from time to time when it's w2w.

[Renathras]

That attitude is toxic and needs to die in a fire. If people want to sniff all flowers on the way, grab 3 of your best friends and run your ques that way. If you have no friends...well...then maybe you should examine that problem and ask yourself if some soul searching is in order.

"I know you are but what am I" isn't a rebuttal.

EDIT: Though one thing DOES always get me: If people are high end, that means they have high end friends and should be able to get groups to run tomes in the most efficient way possible. Some casuals may run Experts as their end-game, and they're likely to know fewer people in game due to either being more casual, more loner/soloers, or just new players; but raiders are only running Experts as a means to an end, tomestones, generally. Like, what Savage raider is salivating at the chance to run...Expert roulette? Seems there'd be more efficient ways for them to grind tomes, at which point it wouldn't matter what Experts do or people do in them, as you'd never be doing them in the first place... :ENDEDIT

=D I just had a W2W tank today who wasn't using any cooldowns. I didn't really mind, I just had to heal more which is what I like doing anyway. Just funny you mentioned that, happens more than you'd think that some tanks even at 90 save it all for the boss that has a lot easier damage to handle than 8 mobs hitting him at once.

Agreed. I don't terribly mind it, I just swap my tactics and roll with it.

[Absimiliard]

=D I just had a W2W tank today who wasn't using any cooldowns. I didn't really mind, I just had to heal more which is what I like doing anyway. Just funny you mentioned that, happens more than you'd think that some tanks even at 90 save it all for the boss that has a lot easier damage to handle than 8 mobs hitting him at once.

I sometimes do that on purpose. Not for lack of understanding or to stress to the healer, but because mob/boss damage in non-endgame content is so abysmally low that half the time I don't even have a reason to use my own heals outside of the mitigative properties attached to them. I too enjoy having something to heal, even if my doing so makes some healers a bit salty. :P

[Miracle_Diva]

"I know you are but what am I" isn't a rebuttal.

EDIT: Though one thing DOES always get me: If people are high end, that means they have high end friends and should be able to get groups to run tomes in the most efficient way possible. Some casuals may run Experts as their end-game, but raiders are only running it as a means to an end. Seems there'd be more efficient ways for them to grind tomes, at which point it wouldn't matter what Experts do or people do in them, as you'd never be doing them in the first place... :ENDEDIT

What does "high end" have to do with anything?
But you tried I guess.

[FenyxRising]

What does "high end" have to do with anything?
But you tried I guess.

I think he thinks W2W pulls are high end now ?