I know y'all don't wanna hear this...

[IckeDerTyp]

I'd wager the main reason dps are so rarely in need is because they're double the slots than healers/tanks!

Also everyone plays a dps due to the "no responsibility required" - mindset people couple with that role but imho, as a dps it's your job to kill things the quickest possible - which is just as important as properly tanking and dps-ing as a healer!

If you really think expecting people to give it their everything is toxic... Just stick with SP games, or look at co-op titles to play with like-minded slow-enjoyers~

[Saraide]

I'd wager the main reason dps are so rarely in need is because they're double the slots than healers/tanks!

Also everyone plays a dps due to the "no responsibility required" - mindset people couple with that role but imho, as a dps it's your job to kill things the quickest possible - which is just as important as properly tanking and dps-ing as a healer!

If you really think expecting people to give it their everything is toxic... Just stick with SP games, or look at co-op titles to play with like-minded slow-enjoyers~

Yes thank you for posting this. Pulls going south can just as easily be the fault of bad DPS players.

[Darkobra]

No thanks, this is just totally wrong.

Next



Wrong again. 99% of dungeons don't have any issues with W2W pulls.

Next

If you're going to steal my "next" thing, I usually do it telling someone WHY it's wrong.

Flattered your new personality is trying to be the new me but I'm twice your age. I've been around a LOT longer. At least educate them.

[Teno]

... But the combination of "by default, tanks should pull wall to wall" and "by default, healers should spend as much time DPSing as possible" is an absolutely toxic cocktail of unapproachability and is the reason you rarely see DPS as adventurer in need for 4-person roulettes. As long as you ask these two counterintuitive things, tanks will die, healers will feel put on the spot, and both will queue less and err on the side of DPSing, trading peace and absence of higher responsibility for a longer queue.

I know you're gonna get mad, but it's true.

Healing isn't hard. Tanking isn't hard. The way people expect these jobs to be played is counterintuitive and puts "respect for everyone's time" over approachable gameplay. There's no safe way to discuss in a tank's greeting macro that "I will pull fast until I die or have to use holmgang on trash" that doesn't put the healer on the spot, and honestly, the healer shouldn't have to tolerate "everyone's wall to wall until you say you're new or someone dies." And that doesn't even work because "this is a level 80+ dungeon, how are you new, you should know by now" still happens in a world where one can use duty support from the beginning to end of the game!

Look, just be kind, ok? And don't crack the whip or pull for the tank when he's trying to take it easy on a healer who clearly needs it, yet has to say "you can pull big" to cover their ass.

Overly DPSing healers are a bonus.

Wall to wall pulling is a bonus.

They're perks, not entitlements.

Just be kind. You're all so good at that when people conform to your expectations, maybe alter those just a bit to err on the side of kindness.

Thank you.

Dps as adventurer in need is almost just as frequent as tank/healer in this game.

And don't be as if tank/healer gameplay can be "complex", it's very bare especially in casual content, and even more so for healers. The only difference with w2w is that you need 1 more defensive cd per pack at best.

[Ivtrix]

Dps as adventurer in need is almost just as frequent as tank/healer in this game.

And don't be as if tank/healer gameplay can be "complex", it's very bare especially in casual content, and even more so for healers. The only difference with w2w is that you need 1 more defensive cd per pack at best.

I dont see it as often but its not an issue unique to FFXIV. Every MMORPG has the same problem - everyone wants to play dps and less people want to play tanks and healers

there is a whole myriad of issues once you scratch the surface but in XIV, dps is the most stress free job in casual content because you actually arnt required at all. There are no job specific responsibilities DPS need to perform, there is 0 pressure, and you dont actually need dps to finish dungeons. It just goes to show how worthless the dps role is in casual content.

Healing and tanking require just that minute effort above what dps do, but because they have actual responsibilities it freaks people out when the DPS bar is so low.

[Mimilu]

I'm sorry but that's going to require an official source.

The 2-minute rotations.
With the current design of jobs and most dungeons, you use your 2-minute damage buffs on the first pack of enemies you wall-to-wall pull, down them, do the second wall-to-wall pull, down them, then by the time you reach the boss room they should be around-if-not resetting, then rinse and repeat. If you take too long, it won't line up. The only exceptions to this are the pulls before the first boss room in Troia (because the mobs die extremely quickly) and the last pulls before the final boss room in the Stigma Dreamscape (because of the slide and mobs dying quickly). （*´▽｀*）

[IDontPetLalas]

Okay, I'll tell you something: I played games where as healer and/or tank you have to go slow with dungeons and mob pulls. Shocking, isn't it? However those games were specifically designed to be that way (key word: design). Aion was a prime example where going 1 mob at a time was normal, and having 3+ mobs healer had to do triple duty with healing. In TERA if the tank was properly geared, they could rush through the entire dungeon (there's no walls) and pull everything in one go. Ungeared players generally approached it with room-by-room instead (something like wall-to-wall).

FFXIV is designed to have 2 packs of mobs after every wall. When you start, I don't know, Dead Ends, you have first pack and a second right after, and a wall to stop you. What's next? The same thing until first boss. It's the same formula over and over, and at level 90 there's no reason whatsoever to single pull mobs, especially since both healers and tanks have just so much mitigation. In low level dungeons, I generally allow the sprout healer/tank to go slowly and at their pace because it's part of their learning process.

I, too, was a sprout learning to tank and heal, and I've mastered both because they're not that hard to play, game is literally holding your hand for the most part anyway.

If you were doing one mob at a time in Aion, then I would understand that if you were either low-level, or under-geared otherwise I can think of numerous dungeons where multiple mobs could be pulled. It wasn't "normal" unless someone wasn't AOEing or going through their rotations

[dspguy]

While I do pull wall-to-wall and I do expect healers to be able to handle it (but will back off if they speak up), we are given toolsets that allow for this. We've always had these toolsets. If anything, they made DPSing by healers easier with the removal of Cleric Stance. Now there's no need to pick and choose when to DPS and when to heal. Tanks can contribute more DPS to the group since they no longer have a defense up/offense down tank stance.

However, I do think what goes on is a bit toxic. I don't care about people pulling over tanks - there's been lots of threads about that. But we have a game where everyone's primary job is DPS. In my opinion, a lot of this stems from what the game trained us to do back in ARR. Extreme Trials and Coil (before it was called savage) had enrage timers. The DPS has to come from somewhere. I have my doubts that an above average raid group with entry-level gear for that tier can clear savage content without the healers doing some DPS. I'm sure there are instances of fully-geared BIS groups doing it. I'm sure there are instances of elite top 1% raid groups doing it in entry-level gear, but I don't know about players in say that top 33% of raid groups.

If healers need to DPS to clear that content, it spills over into all other content. Since the content is easier than raid content, healers will always be expected to DPS first and heal second.

[Rehayem]

If you were doing one mob at a time in Aion, then I would understand that if you were either low-level, or under-geared otherwise I can think of numerous dungeons where multiple mobs could be pulled. It wasn't "normal" unless someone wasn't AOEing or going through their rotations

You had to have a good group to pull more mobs. Last time I fully dedicated my time to it was back when Aion's patch was 5.8. Looking at it now, there's really no more group content unless you count PvP instances as one. Talking about retail btw. Classic server is currently at 2.0 patch which is completely different.

[IDontPetLalas]

You had to have a good group to pull more mobs. Last time I fully dedicated my time to it was back when Aion's patch was 5.8. Looking at it now, there's really no more group content unless you count PvP instances as one. Talking about retail btw. Classic server is currently at 2.0 patch which is completely different.

Well, I'm glad you clarified the version, I was also talking about retail which I played from beta (2009) until 2020. Based upon that, unless your group wasn't geared properly (gear not enchanted, bad manastones, stigma lacking) single pulling wasn't the norm. If everyone in the group was max enchanted (e.g. +15 when that was the max) then you would cut through mobs like butter.

Point is, the game design did not enforce single pulls. Limitations were more often due to player skill or due to their gear.