I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Renathras]

But it is a personal problem. Sorry but i dont think crying over being told to do the job you signed up for is anyone elses problem.

When people signed up for Healer - instead of the neighboring role of "damage dealer" - it stands to reason they didn't sign up to "do the job" of performing a damage dealing rotation.

You have naysayed multiple potential ideas for adding more damage buttons to healers on the grounds...

I'm a BIT confused. Do you not know the difference between GCD heals and "damage buttons"?

Tell me, are you good at cooking? Are you equally good at frying, baking, basting, and steaming, or do you find some less taxing and others more?

Can you play an instrument? Do you find it equally taxing/easy to play all instruments? Piano, guitar, harmonica, trumpet, drums, xylophone, accordion, bagpipes - you find each to be equally mentally taxing and equally easy to play?

Things are different, and different people are good at different things. I'm good at reactive gameplay, which is why I prefer healers and tanks. I'm not good at DPS rotations and tracking various gauges and buffs/debuffs, which is why I dislike DPS Jobs and don't play DPS or only play the ones that have the least of that and are borderline not even DPS Jobs (namely, SMN).

If you don't understand the difference between someone asking for more GCD healing and someone asking for more DPS GCD buttons, I'm not sure you can stand in this conversation.

You're tilting at windmills on this.

No my dear. You are. I've already shown you a great solution, but it's not good enough. There's no harm that isn't exceeded by what you'd prefer instead. But it doesn't matter much what we say, Yoshi P seems pretty set in his ways on this one. So since we can't agree to a compromise, "no change" is the likely result.

I honestly see two things I need to do if they want healers to heal more, they need to drastically nerf tank healing (especially warriors on trash pulls). Or need to give healers I suggest DPS wise 2 single Target ability and I aoe ability a DOT to maintain and a proc (can be aoe or single depending on class) this gives him a dots up key a one two rotation that can sometimes lead into a three and a healing. I'm not saying it has to be competitive with like Black mage but at least something to do.

For the DPS buttons, We already have this, though, don't we? I guess the question is more about the frequency.

WHM: Glare, Misery, Assize + Dia; Holy for AOE (also Misery and Assize)
SCH: Broil, Ruin 2, Energy Drain + Bio; Art of War for AOE (also Energy Drain I guess...?)
AST: Malific, Macrocosmos, Earthly Star + Combust; Gravity for AOE
SGE: Dosis, Plegma, Toxicon, Pneuma + EuDosis; Dyskrasia for AOE (also Plegma, Toxicon, and Pneuma)

The buttons are there, it's more an argument of adjusting how frequently they're used.

I will also saying changing from one "all 4 are mostly identical" rotation to a second but also "all 4 are mostly identical" rotation probably won't fix anything. It'd be better for them to be different. One being 1 DoT and 1 spamnuke, another being a 1-2-3 but no DoT, another being 1 fillernuke and 2-3 DoTs, and another being a DoT and some kind of rotation through phases (like SMN, maybe?) would be better than going from all four being a DoT + filler nuke to a DoT + 2 filler nukes.

I do agree they need to nerf tank healing, but there's a little more. We need less pass/fail mechanics. If people get hit by avoidable damage and they die, there's nothing healers can do but raise them. We need lesser, but more frequent damage; there shouldn't be 45-60 seconds between attacks. Party mitigation should also be mostly healers and tanks, not so much DPSers. Healing for not healer role Jobs should be GCDs only. Clemency and Vercure can be used, but require sacrifice so aren't overused (generally), where things like Curing Waltz and Everlasting Flight are free and cost nothing to use, so there's no trade-off or cost-benefit to the DPS using them instead of performing its main role.

And that's exactly why it's extremely suspicious when someone claims they or their friend are told that they're underperforming a lot.

Not really. While it's a risk, people can do this with impunity if no one reports them. Most people want to just move on and so don't report, and some people forget they aren't supposed to mention add-ons. I've seen people mention add-ons (or knowledge they could only have from one) in party chats before with some version of "crap...uh...forget I said anything" and never get in trouble since no one reported them for the innocuous error. Something like "God, I'm sucking tonight, I usually get way higher numbers than this" kinds of things.

I don't at all find it odd that it happens to people. I know it's happened before in parties I was in and just no one reported it, we called the person a dick after they left and moved on.

[Aravell]

Not really. While it's a risk, people can do this with impunity if no one reports them. Most people want to just move on and so don't report, and some people forget they aren't supposed to mention add-ons. I've seen people mention add-ons (or knowledge they could only have from one) in party chats before with some version of "crap...uh...forget I said anything" and never get in trouble since no one reported them for the innocuous error. Something like "God, I'm sucking tonight, I usually get way higher numbers than this" kinds of things.

I don't at all find it odd that it happens to people. I know it's happened before in parties I was in and just no one reported it, we called the person a dick after they left and moved on.

Sure, it can happen, I'll grant you that, but it's not exactly prevalent, is it? In my 10 years of playing on multiple DCs, I've only seen one passive-aggressive callout, and it was someone saying "not gg with you" after someone said "gg" at the end of a dungeon. I'm not sure why the threat of being bullied for not using your kit properly has to be a major consideration when it's not very prevalent at all.

[AmiableApkallu]

Sure, it can happen, I'll grant you that, but it's not exactly prevalent, is it? In my 10 years of playing on multiple DCs, I've only seen one passive-aggressive callout, and it was someone saying "not gg with you" after someone said "gg" at the end of a dungeon. I'm not sure why the threat of being bullied for not using your kit properly has to be a major consideration when it's not very prevalent at all.

I'm into my cups this evening, so I'll share another anecdote: I was once the got-every-job-to-90-and-beat-EW healer in a Praetorium run (the re-worked for four people version) that caused a wipe on the final fight because I couldn't keep myself alive. Consider for a moment how tragically inattentive and inept you have to be to let that happen. Seriously. Let it sink in.

How much flak did I catch for that? How much flak did I catch for not fulfilling my primary responsibility? None.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I'm into my cups this evening, so I'll share another anecdote: I was once the got-every-job-to-90-and-beat-EW healer in a Praetorium run (the re-worked for four people version) that caused a wipe on the final fight because I couldn't keep myself alive. Consider for a moment how tragically inattentive and inept you have to be to let that happen. Seriously. Let it sink in.

How much flak did I catch for that? How much flak did I catch for not fulfilling my primary responsibility? None.

Adding my own anecdote: back in ShB, I leveled WHM up to 71 not knowing wth I'm doing. Freecure? Yeah, I used those. I caused a couple of wipes sometimes. Nobody gives a $h!t. People were like "It's okay let's give it another try." The only time I started to change for better was at 71 where I had that disastrous Holminster where my inexperienced a$$ couldn't handle the pull with Freecures. I did dps when I could; it's when I had to heal, everything started to fall apart as I panicked.

Did I catch any flaks? None, at all.

Oh oh and also~.. I'm not entirely your 'angelic, kind'-healer too. I had a few 'petty outbursts' at rare times when my tank refuses to wall pull in a friggin' dungeons. What did I do? I purposely stopped being that competent Glare Mage and proceed on to use Cure I (and its equivalent on other healer) only. Any flaks? Again, none.

[ForsakenRoe]

Another day, another Ren take

When people signed up for Healer - instead of the neighboring role of "damage dealer" - it stands to reason they didn't sign up to "do the job" of performing a damage dealing rotation.

And yet, despite this, SB and earlier had a damage rotation on par with what I and others would prefer to have. Pretty much every other game with a healer/support/'guy who helps keep team alive' role has more damage complexity than this one. The tale of 'healers should only heal' is as old as time and will likely continue to be an argument long after we stop playing. Healing is finite. You cannot restore health when someone is full health. There is a hard limit on how much 'more complexity' can be added to the job without doing it via adding to the damage side of the kit because of not only this simple fact, but also because of how much bigger an impact the change would have on less skilled players. Nobody wants to be the guy who couldn't keep up against the constant pulsing raidwides because 'oops I mismanaged my CDs earlier in the fight'.

In my 10S reclear this week I used Temperance early, so it was not up for Harrowing Hell. We had GNB and DRK (PF) so no mit from either tank beyond Reprisal. My mistake there, in week 1 gear, would have killed us. That one single misclick. Compared to that, 'oops I forgot to use my Miasma DOT for a total of 33 seconds over the course of this 10 minute fight' is absolutely not going to be the issue. Your insistence on keeping one healer exactly as it is for... whatever personal attachment you have to this exact format for healers, is blinding you

I'm a BIT confused. Do you not know the difference between GCD heals and "damage buttons"?

Yes, I know the difference. Bit patronizing to ask such a thing, no? Especially when you're fully aware of what content each of us regularly partakes in

If you don't understand the difference between someone asking for more GCD healing and someone asking for more DPS GCD buttons, I'm not sure you can stand in this conversation.

Yes, I understand the difference. The issue is that one of these two is going to cause a lot more issues at the low-end of the skill bellcurve than the other, by a significant amount. The only way to prevent 'more HPS needed' from screwing casual players is to have that change scale in 'magnitude of change' based on the content. And if the 'solution' only affects higher-end content, then it's not a solution. The issue of 'veteran healers find EX roulette kinda drab' is not solved if EX roulette is purposely exempted from the changes, so as to prevent the casual players from getting suddenly filtered by content they previously were able to clear.

By contrast, if said casual player completely ignores their 2 extra DOTs added to SCH, they do not suddenly cause wipes in Aetherfont, because the 'DPS checks' in EX roulettes (eg Cagnazzo charging his tidal wave) are so lax you could get a drink from the fridge, come back, and still beat the check with plenty of time to spare. Thus, with tuning to make sure that the potency gain of 'doing the optimal rotation' is not as high, to keep the output of the skill floor and ceiling close, such a change would 'cause enrages' only in super-high end content like Week 1 Savage and Ultimate. And that's a maybe, depending on fight tuning. This tier's enrage tuning was low enough that you could get away with quite a few things you normally shouldn't.

If you don't understand the simple facts of encounter/fight design, or just game design in general, I'm not sure you can stand in this conversation either. Feel free to continue suggesting 'fixes' that create more problems than they solve though. It gives me something to weave between my Glare casts

No my dear. You are. I've already shown you a great solution, but it's not good enough.

Which solution? The '4 healers' thing where one healer has to be left exactly as it is for 'the people who like the current gameplay' (despite said logic not being a factor in the decision to bring this gameplay on the healers going into SHB)? Or the WHM idea specifically, which I have said I would be okay with? I have doubts about how long it'd stay 'satisfying' given how 'static' the rotation would be, but I've said I'd at least try it. More than can be said for you with like, any proposed change to WHM's damage rotation. Think about it. If the line 'think about the people who enjoy the current gameplay' held water, SE would have used it as reasoning to leave the SB healers in their slightly more complex forms, and add a new healer that had this EW gameplay. Then everyone would have likely trash talked the 'new design' for being so dead-on-arrival stale.

You want one healer to remain as is, for the people 'who like the current gameplay'. So, in terms of damage GCDs, what if we have AST stay as it currently is, and change the other three? WHM SCH SGE all get more damage buttons, AST gets it's rework to make it less clunky to play (presumably card changes again), but keeps it's current GCD gameplay of Malefic and 2 Combusts a minute. This fulfills the '4 healers' thing you keep asking for, doesn't it? If AST got it's APM distribution reorganized to be more 'consistent' instead of being a doubleweave nightmare in 2min windows, and more focus on buffing for it's RDPS contribution instead of Malefics, wouldn't that make AST's design more suited for someone who doesn't want to have a complex damage rotation? Maybe that's an option worth looking into, though of course, some (sorry Skel) would not be a fan of AST being the 'left behind' one, but that's true regardless of which one gets left behind, hence the solution should be 'don't leave any behind, just have the 'extra optimiziation stuff' be optional'. Consider these extra suggested buttons as a speedrunning technique like BLJs. You don't have to BLJ to get up the staircase.

Even better, since you're so insistent on trying to find ways to keep from adding new buttons, my desired rework for AST's cards would not only keep the button count from increasing, it'd actually go down by one. If Minor and Major Arcana both auto-draw when the CD is up, then we'd only need the play button. Minor already turns into it's Play equivalent, so we'd be able to prune 'Draw' and save a button that AST can then use on something else. Maybe another AOE healing OGCD with a 60s CD, I don't think it's got enough of those yet right /s

Also, using 'no u' in 2023 is an interesting move. What 'windmill' am I tilting at?

The buttons are there, it's more an argument of adjusting how frequently they're used.

And yet, one of your biggest gripes with what I've suggested for WHM is that 'player would have to use Dia 5 times a minute instead of 2'.

I've already answered most of this and rebutted it. And frankly unless you're going to properly read what I've said numerous times, I'm done with you.

Unsurprising he's not reading your post, given that he appears to be not reading quotes of his own posts either (or he is and just doesn't realize what he said in them)

[ASkellington]

Unsurprising he's not reading your post, given that he appears to be not reading quotes of his own posts either (or he is and just doesn't realize what he said in them)

I'm going to be nice, as I've done several times in the past, and believe he's misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Maybe I'm not clear enough despite how many times I've tried to be so.

Its really hard to believe that, because on only one (1) occasion has he asked me for clarity on my thoughts instead of jumping the gun with his conclusions if he was ever confused.

I'm still wondering if he's ever going to read that other post. /shrug. Oh well. I've said what I needed to.

Back to advocating equality for WHM I guess or... w/e we want to call it.

[Aravell]

You want one healer to remain as is, for the people 'who like the current gameplay'. So, in terms of damage GCDs, what if we have AST stay as it currently is, and change the other three? WHM SCH SGE all get more damage buttons, AST gets it's rework to make it less clunky to play (presumably card changes again), but keeps it's current GCD gameplay of Malefic and 2 Combusts a minute. This fulfills the '4 healers' thing you keep asking for, doesn't it? If AST got it's APM distribution reorganized to be more 'consistent' instead of being a doubleweave nightmare in 2min windows, and more focus on buffing for it's RDPS contribution instead of Malefics, wouldn't that make AST's design more suited for someone who doesn't want to have a complex damage rotation? Maybe that's an option worth looking into, though of course, some (sorry Skel) would not be a fan of AST being the 'left behind' one, but that's true regardless of which one gets left behind, hence the solution should be 'don't leave any behind, just have the 'extra optimiziation stuff' be optional'. Consider these extra suggested buttons as a speedrunning technique like BLJs. You don't have to BLJ to get up the staircase.

I don't think this would be a major problem for AST mains given that AST never had much of a damage rotation to begin with. If we get back interesting cards and interactions surrounding it again, I doubt many would complain about having only 1 DoT and 1 nuke.

[IDontPetLalas]

I don't think this would be a major problem for AST mains given that AST never had much of a damage rotation to begin with. If we get back interesting cards and interactions surrounding it again, I doubt many would complain about having only 1 DoT and 1 nuke.

I agree that some would, however while the percentage of AST wanting more damage was lower than the other healers, it was substantial. Unless that design allowed for significant improvements in solo content then yes, I would complain.

[ASkellington]

I don't think this would be a major problem for AST mains given that AST never had much of a damage rotation to begin with. If we get back interesting cards and interactions surrounding it again, I doubt many would complain about having only 1 DoT and 1 nuke.

I would. Please do go and play AST in Deep Dungeon content solo.

That has been my experience for a good year and so playing this game.

[Aravell]

I would. Please do go and play AST in Deep Dungeon content solo.

That has been my experience for a good year and so playing this game.

If you've played AST in SB, you'd know they had 2 DoTs and 1 filler. That's not exactly a lot either. Solo play is more a damage scaling issue than number of buttons issue. My point is that AST never had many damage buttons since inception.