I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Sebazy]

You mean the expansion where one healer was completely benched, one spec of the one healer with specs (AST) was mostly benched, and people who didn't enjoy DPSing on healers were sidelined from content?

Uh? I'm guessing you're referring to WHM and Noct AST? If so, a correction here:

WHM+Noct AST was the goto out of the gate, eg: world first Deltascape clear. WHM also saw plenty of use in Sigmascape as an FYI. By Omegascape, WHM's scaling and mobility woes had caught up with it and it was indeed getting out performed by AST+SCH for sure. I distinctly remember Hello World being significantly easier on AST as well?

Overall though, I'd say that SB's healer balance was still better than HW at the peak of the end game. 3.0 AST was massively worse than anything else we've experienced since, 4.0 SCH included, meanwhile 3.4 WHM was in a bad enough state that it literally had to stand there doing nothing at times to have enough MP for A12S. 4.4 WHM wasn't optimal, but again, it wasn't anyway near as problematic.

[Shinkuno]

I guess I don't really see the point of bringing this up? It seems like a way to dismiss the issue as being not really an issue at all, but more of a personal problem for people who have skin with deficient thickness. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying though.

But it is a personal problem. Sorry but i dont think crying over being told to do the job you signed up for is anyone elses problem. Not the other players, not the devs. Ive read that some of your friends are "barely good enough" for the baseline content and i have to say - sorry, but at that point you cant further nag the devs or get mad at other players calling your friends out.

The baseline in this game is already intelligence-insulting levels of easy. People press 1 button while spending 90% of their time looking at their second screen and still clear content. If your friends have issues with content that has been already dumbed down so hard you can barely call it "playing a game" then maybe its either time to get better or quit and move to a more suitable game... whatever that game might be cause outside of idle-autoplay mobile games i cant think of a single game that is this easy.

Heck, no one commented in-game on the absolutely atrocious DPS that led to the 14+ minute, wipe-free run of P7N that I got to experience.

This - it takes ALOT for people to start speaking up, they rather carry an absolute deadweight through the finish line than speaking up. So if they do, you know that something is horrible wrong.

SE also have consistently failed to push the strength and flexibility of the armoury system. With the number of jobs we have now, IMO it makes perfect sense to have some jobs more suited to content than others. As long as everyone gets their time in the sun somewhere but being off meta isn't crippling, it's all good IMO.

Before someone comes along and says 'but noooo, it'll be bad because 'insert favourite job here' will get blacklisted from PF in content it's not meta for'. My honest response is 'deal with it, make your own if you care'. FFXI showed the strengths of this in action perfectly. I'd always be one of the first to arrive at the raid and I'd usually start out on SCH so I could cover a bunch of different roles until more people turned up. As the raid gathered I'd switch out to BRD, WHM or BLM as needed and I can promise you, the variety of gameplay really kept things fresh far longer than they would have been if I'd just have turned up as BRD and spent the evening on that day in and day out.

Sometimes you've got to save players from themselves and pushing a bit of variety on them is a good way to stall burnout even if they aren't entirely onboard with it. Besides the penalties for switching jobs are minute in this game compared to a more traditional MMO like WoW.

YES YES YES thank you. It bothers me so much that people try to sweet-talk this absolute homogenization with "but what if my job was not meta?" SO WHAT, you can freely switch the jobs in this game. If someone refuses to do so because they want to play pretty flower WHM then thats on them and the game should make it clear that they dont get to do certain content then.

[Aravell]

This - it takes ALOT for people to start speaking up, they rather carry an absolute deadweight through the finish line than speaking up. So if they do, you know that something is horrible wrong.

From my years of playing this game since starting in ARR, I notice people are more likely to call someone out for greeding than they are to call someone out for underperforming.

[ForsakenRoe]

This was in answer to the argument of healers being unable to heal the content. Clearly people were able to do it. Hell, I was!

You have naysayed multiple potential ideas for adding more damage buttons to healers on the grounds that it would potentially cause enrage issues if a healer didn't execute their rotation correctly in EX trials and Savages.

Probably, but I expect it to be even less likely for SE to make healing engaging than to give us some 'mostly ignorable extra damage buttons', since 'not being able to keep up with the extra healing' directly translates to 'party wipes because they hit zero HP'

If we're talking Savages (or even Extremes), that's irrelevant, since not doing enough DPS also leads to party wipes due to enrages.

So if the content is apparently tuned so tightly that the healer being slightly suboptimal in their damage rotation (which would be balanced such that incorrect execution, eg using Glare when Banish is ready to use, loses you 40p or less), how did you clear the fight while using so many GCD heals? The answer is, you're wrong. The content is not tuned that tightly, leniency is built into the fight to allow for the healers to use GCD heals sometimes, and this same leniency would apply with a suboptimal rotation.

Additionally, you've given extremely specific optimization examples to try and 'yeh but what if X?' me, like 'Dia, 3 GCDs, you need to heal and refresh Dia now what', but you'd refresh Dia on the 5th GCD not 4th so your example has no conflict of actions anyway. Pedantry aside, A: you can refresh Dia and then heal after, as there are extremely few times in this game where you need to heal on the very next GCD after a damage has gone out, B: You can heal first and then Dia refresh later, losing some damage, namely 'one Dia tick per GCD heal required' which can be balanced to be a lower potency loss if needed (nothing requires that Dia be 70p per tick, it could be 50 or 30 I don't care), C: no matter what content you're in, even Ultimates, missing a Dia tick is not going to make or break the raid, and if it does you had much bigger things to work on than optimizing your single Dia tick back into the rotation. In lower content, it doesn't matter how much damage you do or don't do, so you can use the Dia/heal in any order. As long as the party lives, who actually cares?

Plus, having additional Dia's in the rotation (instant cast), plus replacing some of the Glares with Banish (which I would have as instantcast), means that the player loses less damage to things like movement. It could be argued that this 'added complexity' actually makes things easier on the 'casual player', not harder. Not everyone's got your aversion to DOTs, so not everyone's going to find my version of WHM 'more complex than SMN'. You ever try to keep doing your Glares while moving to spots for a mechanic? I remember moving 90 degrees round the arena for Act 2, or the whole Act 4 dance. And I remember dropping a fair amount of Glare casts there because I was moving, and healing. And still we cleared.

You're tilting at windmills on this. It's not even an issue. Any healer worth their Job Stone is able to make the decision of 'I need to keep the party alive' and sacrifice damage when necessary to keep the party alive. You can check my P12 logs to see just how often I throw the parse mentality out of the window to secure a clear. And how, despite using so many more GCD heals, it still gets a clear, even with early non-bis gear

[Mcg55ss]

I believe currently this is the most pressing issue in the entire game that needs to be addressed above everything else. That is my feedback.

I honestly see two things I need to do if they want healers to heal more, they need to drastically nerf tank healing (especially warriors on trash pulls). Or need to give healers I suggest DPS wise 2 single Target ability and I aoe ability a DOT to maintain and a proc (can be aoe or single depending on class) this gives him a dots up key a one two rotation that can sometimes lead into a three and a healing. I'm not saying it has to be competitive with like Black mage but at least something to do.

[ForsakenRoe]

YES YES YES thank you. It bothers me so much that people try to sweet-talk this absolute homogenization with "but what if my job was not meta?" SO WHAT, you can freely switch the jobs in this game. If someone refuses to do so because they want to play pretty flower WHM then thats on them and the game should make it clear that they dont get to do certain content then.

I wouldn't agree with 'block player out of content for playing the 'wrong' job', that's a bit far. Rather, if there's any encounters that heavily favour one job's kit over another, having the other job have a moment of it's own to shine too in the same fight. So, in P3S where AST could delete a mechanic with Macrocosmos, WHM should have been given a mechanic where AST has a bit of a rougher time to solve it, and WHM can solve it effortlessly. Fountain of Fire, with a couple of minor adjustments, could have been so much better for WHM than other healers, by really making Lilybell's remote-healing effect be pronounced, but AST didn't mind that mechanic either because Earthly Star exists. When WHM's whole kit is just 'it has a lot of burst healing', it's hard to design a situation in which it can excel uniquely, because AST is also capable of pumping out a lot of healing when it needs to

Or need to give healers I suggest DPS wise 2 single Target ability and I aoe ability a DOT to maintain and a proc (can be aoe or single depending on class) this gives him a dots up key a one two rotation that can sometimes lead into a three and a healing. I'm not saying it has to be competitive with like Black mage but at least something to do.

The only people saying anything about 'making it like Black Mage' are those who want zero changes, and seem to be trying to poison the well on the topic by exaggerating what the pro-changes people want. We don't want to make the jobs have some insurmountable barrier to entry, we just want them to have 'more than they currently have'. Even what you've asked for here is more than what some of us have asked for, if that can be believed

[Shurrikhan]

From my years of playing this game since starting in ARR, I notice people are more likely to call someone out for greeding than they are to call someone out for underperforming.

Tbf, one's under tangential gag order, while the other is not.

Hasyetto Castfirespells: "But how would you KNOW I was underperforming?!"

[Aravell]

Tbf, one's under tangential gag order, while the other is not.

Hasyetto Castfirespells: "But how would you KNOW I was underperforming?!"

And that's exactly why it's extremely suspicious when someone claims they or their friend are told that they're underperforming a lot. I've seen a dungeon back in ShB where a BLM spammed Thunder IV and Blizzard II (back when Blizzard II was an AoE around yourself, so they stood at range and hit nothing with it). Nobody said a single thing even though that BLM was very obviously underperforming, you can literally see them hitting nothing with Blizzard II.

[Niroken]

There is absolutely no reason for them to change Healer design going forward since they don't cause queue issues like Tanks. That's why Tanks get so much attention.

If you are bored of playing healer and want healer to change... stop playing healer.

[Renathras]

But it is a personal problem. Sorry but i dont think crying over being told to do the job you signed up for is anyone elses problem.

When people signed up for Healer - instead of the neighboring role of "damage dealer" - it stands to reason they didn't sign up to "do the job" of performing a damage dealing rotation.

You have naysayed multiple potential ideas for adding more damage buttons to healers on the grounds...

I'm a BIT confused. Do you not know the difference between GCD heals and "damage buttons"?

Tell me, are you good at cooking? Are you equally good at frying, baking, basting, and steaming, or do you find some less taxing and others more?

Can you play an instrument? Do you find it equally taxing/easy to play all instruments? Piano, guitar, harmonica, trumpet, drums, xylophone, accordion, bagpipes - you find each to be equally mentally taxing and equally easy to play?

Things are different, and different people are good at different things. I'm good at reactive gameplay, which is why I prefer healers and tanks. I'm not good at DPS rotations and tracking various gauges and buffs/debuffs, which is why I dislike DPS Jobs and don't play DPS or only play the ones that have the least of that and are borderline not even DPS Jobs (namely, SMN).

If you don't understand the difference between someone asking for more GCD healing and someone asking for more DPS GCD buttons, I'm not sure you can stand in this conversation.

You're tilting at windmills on this.

No my dear. You are. I've already shown you a great solution, but it's not good enough. There's no harm that isn't exceeded by what you'd prefer instead. But it doesn't matter much what we say, Yoshi P seems pretty set in his ways on this one. So since we can't agree to a compromise, "no change" is the likely result.

I honestly see two things I need to do if they want healers to heal more, they need to drastically nerf tank healing (especially warriors on trash pulls). Or need to give healers I suggest DPS wise 2 single Target ability and I aoe ability a DOT to maintain and a proc (can be aoe or single depending on class) this gives him a dots up key a one two rotation that can sometimes lead into a three and a healing. I'm not saying it has to be competitive with like Black mage but at least something to do.

For the DPS buttons, We already have this, though, don't we? I guess the question is more about the frequency.

WHM: Glare, Misery, Assize + Dia; Holy for AOE (also Misery and Assize)
SCH: Broil, Ruin 2, Energy Drain + Bio; Art of War for AOE (also Energy Drain I guess...?)
AST: Malific, Macrocosmos, Earthly Star + Combust; Gravity for AOE
SGE: Dosis, Plegma, Toxicon, Pneuma + EuDosis; Dyskrasia for AOE (also Plegma, Toxicon, and Pneuma)

The buttons are there, it's more an argument of adjusting how frequently they're used.

I will also saying changing from one "all 4 are mostly identical" rotation to a second but also "all 4 are mostly identical" rotation probably won't fix anything. It'd be better for them to be different. One being 1 DoT and 1 spamnuke, another being a 1-2-3 but no DoT, another being 1 fillernuke and 2-3 DoTs, and another being a DoT and some kind of rotation through phases (like SMN, maybe?) would be better than going from all four being a DoT + filler nuke to a DoT + 2 filler nukes.

I do agree they need to nerf tank healing, but there's a little more. We need less pass/fail mechanics. If people get hit by avoidable damage and they die, there's nothing healers can do but raise them. We need lesser, but more frequent damage; there shouldn't be 45-60 seconds between attacks. Party mitigation should also be mostly healers and tanks, not so much DPSers. Healing for not healer role Jobs should be GCDs only. Clemency and Vercure can be used, but require sacrifice so aren't overused (generally), where things like Curing Waltz and Everlasting Flight are free and cost nothing to use, so there's no trade-off or cost-benefit to the DPS using them instead of performing its main role.

And that's exactly why it's extremely suspicious when someone claims they or their friend are told that they're underperforming a lot.

Not really. While it's a risk, people can do this with impunity if no one reports them. Most people want to just move on and so don't report, and some people forget they aren't supposed to mention add-ons. I've seen people mention add-ons (or knowledge they could only have from one) in party chats before with some version of "crap...uh...forget I said anything" and never get in trouble since no one reported them for the innocuous error. Something like "God, I'm sucking tonight, I usually get way higher numbers than this" kinds of things.

I don't at all find it odd that it happens to people. I know it's happened before in parties I was in and just no one reported it, we called the person a dick after they left and moved on.