Variant/Criterion dungeons are more dead than Bozja/Eureka ever were

[AwesomeJr44]

the MMO space say World of Warcraft, Lost Ark, Overwatch 2, Diablo 4

Only 2 of these are actual MMOs, one of them is practically a P2W gatcha game with an MMO skin (Lost Ark), and the other one has numerous reasons as to why it's lost its former glory (WoW).

Oh? Then why are people hating the whole season pass method of acquiring characters and loot behind terrible grind systems.

People hate OW2 because of the scummy overpriced microtransactions and frequent broken promises from Blizzard. I guess if you want to make a comparison there, FFXIV has had some scummy overpriced cash shop items and broken promises as of late. But imagine trying to compare OW2's battle pass grind to an MMO's lmao

[Deo14]

Oh? Then why are people hating the whole season pass method of acquiring characters and loot behind terrible grind systems. Grinds that people here want to bring back in FFXIV just for the sake of it?

You do realize the term "grind" is a negative word right? It means "hard, dull daily work" in most dictionaries. If this is supposed to be sold as something thats good and or fun for the game, its doing a poor job at trying to be appealing.

Because it's not a grind. You get XP for simply playing the game (or by just buying it, so Bobby can get another yacht), so it's just as "grindy" as EW relics. If you want to argue about daily bonuses, then that's exactly what roulettes are.

"Grind" isn't necessarily negative word, everyone has their own definition. I personally just call more long-term progressions grind. Sometimes, you just want to turn off your brain and mindlessly grind. Even if you do truly boring tasks, then it can still be rewarding in the end, achievement factor is great, and I enjoy it more than just some instant gratification.

[Winterfang]

"If you dont want a grind then dont play an MMO"

Funny, if you look at the MMO space say World of Warcraft,

There's a HUGE difference between the OPTIONAL Side Content that has no barring on other factors in the game like Forays in XIV does and the total BS that WoW Pulled around their Later expansions where Mandatory Daily Log-Ins were required with BS power systems were in mind when developing their end game content and were needed to progress their game. Trying to equate these two is so damn insane when neither SB or ShB were this massive insulting grind game and still had other things for people who didn't want to step into that content.

[Deo14]

There's a HUGE difference between the OPTIONAL Side Content that has no barring on other factors in the game like Forays in XIV does and the total BS that WoW Pulled around their Later expansions where Mandatory Daily Log-Ins were required with BS power systems were in mind when developing their end game content and were needed to progress their game. Trying to equate these two is so damn insane when neither SB or ShB were this massive insulting grind game and still had other things for people who didn't want to step into that content.

But Atelier admitted that she forced herself to do Bozja relics even though she hated it. Don't try to reason with her, she wants to play all optional content, so all of it must suit her tastes.

[Supersnow845]

But Atelier admitted that she forced herself to do Bozja relics even though she hated it. Don't try to reason with her, she wants to play all optional content, so all of it must suit her tastes.

14 forces you play “all” content if you want any content to play because it releases so little content

Still doesn’t excuse wanting all side content tailored to you because you can’t help but do all content but there is an argument to be said that 14 needs to actually damn well release enough content there is actually choice

[AwesomeJr44]

But Atelier admitted that she forced herself to do Bozja relics even though she hated it. Don't try to reason with her, she wants to play all optional content, so all of it must suit her tastes.

Plus she has to do it on her 4 MSQ alts too lmao

[Atelier-Bagur]

But Atelier admitted that she forced herself to do Bozja relics even though she hated it. Don't try to reason with her, she wants to play all optional content, so all of it must suit her tastes.

The fact that you and other people still play this game doesnt make you any better than me or anyone else. I did the content on my alts because I wanted the completion and the specific relic glams for my characters. That doesnt excuse it for the grind to be that tedious and boring.

Why in the hell did you had to get 20 of each memory type for a single weapon, farming FATES? Or how about 15 Timeworn artifacts doing Delibrum Reginae (yes I know you can get them from Deep Dungeons, but its not guaranteed while you get 3 each DR clear, so its clear which one is the more efficient activity)The fact that you have to do that for every weapon basically amounting to do 6 or so DR runs is so agonizing awful that its just destroyed any fun that raid had. At least they didnt do that with a previous memory step where you could run CLL for them but you get 5 for every clear alongside any CE that has a chance for giving you 1, and those dont take as long.

And lets not forget the most awful grind design I've ever seen and its just as bad as the dreaded ARR book phase where you had to collect 180 items via Zadnor Fates and Shb raids. Thank god its only a one time grind but that was just so insulting and obviously padded out to heck because Shadowbringers was desperate in keeping retention.

Its just amazing how much easily acceptable these grinds are just because some folk want I quote "long-term progressions grind. Sometimes, you just want to turn off your brain and mindlessly grind".




turn off your brain and mindlessly grind? Thats the saddest thing I ever heard from somebody trying to validate their own enjoyment in a video game. Thats not better than the afk'ers or people who just hang out in Limsa not doing anything and just chatting it up. Its like the other side of the extreme, where there's people who dont want to do anything in the game vs the people who dont to be engaged with the game. Why cant long progression be a fun and an enjoyable journey like in say classic WoW where while the exp gain was slow you had multiple methods of going through it. Why do most steps have to be "just run this particular activity numerous times"? Its embarrassing how say the earlier steps of the ARR relic grind where you had to go find your weapon each at a varied location, get a specific weapon/meld specific materia, go fell these specific monsters, participate in a trial, and go on a treasure hunt had more thought put into it than the obvious lazily designed tasks presented here. Oh and dont you think Im well good with EW's relic steps, the whole tomestone thing is just incredibly dull and lazy.

We have to stop accepting this mediocrity in MMO games. We should want more fun engagement in progression, whether it be mandatory or optional. Just because its "optional" doesnt excuse it for being bad.

[AwesomeJr44]

whatever the post above me is

This is the equivalent of playing an FPS shooter and then asking for the shooting to be removed.

[Atelier-Bagur]

This is the equivalent of playing an FPS shooter and then asking for the shooting to be removed.

I mean you can go ahead and keep making these poor excuses. You preach of wanting quality in many of your posts but when actually challenged, you dont properly respond nor give reasonable answers to counter arguments presented; mostly resorting to petty insults on the poster.

[Jojoya]

Exploratory content is meant to be a grind, if you don’t want a grind then don’t play an MMO

are we still having this conversation in 2023


And as I have said EW replaced it with nothing at all, that was certainly a good trade off wasn’t it

There's a difference between MMORPGs being about grinds and MMORPGs having grinds.

They haven't been about grinds since WoW came out. WoW was a literal game changer for the genre.

But they can still have grinds. This game is filled with grinds already for those interested. Just about every content type has some sort of grind spelled out in the Achievements list.

As someone who is demanding grinds, have you completed every single one of those? Or are you picking and choosing what grinds you'll do?

If you're not doing them all, then maybe you shouldn't be playing a MMORPG.

I don't agree with Atelier. Enough players enjoy the exploration zones that it would be good to see another one added for those players.

I also don't agree with you. Someone shouldn't have to enjoy grinds to play a MMORPG. WoW proved that almost 2 decades ago.

If you genuinely want a game that only has that old school MMORPG grind then OSRS is calling you. https://oldschool.runescape.com/

Why would anyone in their right mind expose their main to the forum? That's just courting disaster.

I've never had problems posting from this character, which is my main. I've occasionally had others remark about my posts but no one has gone off the wall crazy on me.

Some of you live life a little too paranoid about what might happen. That's not good for you, it causes stress. Deal with trouble when it happens. Chances are it's not going to happen unless you've gone out of your way to piss other players off.

Overwatch 2 is truly one of the MMORPGs of all time.

Try going to Blizzard's website for OW2. They don't call it a MMORPG. They call it a hero-based action shooter.

Something that's usually considered needed for a game to be a MMORPG is a persistent open world zone where players can come and go as they want. Does OW2 have that or does it just have a lobby where players sit waiting to get matched?

14 forces you play “all” content if you want any content to play because it releases so little content

Still doesn’t excuse wanting all side content tailored to you because you can’t help but do all content but there is an argument to be said that 14 needs to actually damn well release enough content there is actually choice

Which isn't true at all. I don't enjoy PvP so it's highly unlikely I'll ever be doing some PvP unless my friends stop letting me con them into getting me housing furniture sold at the Wolfmark vendor.

I'll never do Ultimate or Criterion Savage. It's been a decade since I've been able to play at that skill level, health problems have added up over the years.

I tend to ignore leves other than using my allowances to try to spawn Lamp or Wulgaru.

I've barely touched guildhests though one day it might be fun to get a group of friends together to knock them all just to see what they're like past the first 4 that I have done.

It's a bad habit to confuse "content I enjoy" with "all content". I'm sure there are plenty of things in the game you could be doing but are choosing to ignore.

That's not SE's fault. They're trying to make a variety of content to appeal to a variety of different players with different interests. They're still going to miss the mark completely with some players.

If you're part of the latter, that's the point you need to become a smart consumer and play the game(s) that do offer what you're interested in. So should everyone else in the same boat. If enough players stop subscribing due to a lack of certain types of content previously in the game, SE may decide to bring some of that content back, like they are talking about possible doing for Dawntrail with exploratory zones.

Or you can sit here being miserable in an ocean of players who are enjoying the game for what it does have.

Plus she has to do it on her 4 MSQ alts too lmao

I've done it far more than that. I've played through the MSQ (at least to what was max level at the time I deleted the character) at least a dozen times.

I enjoy the story. I like starting with a total nobody of a character that knows very little and develops into a powerful protagonist.

Maybe this might put a better perspective on the conversation:

MMORPGs aren't about grinds. They're about repetition. There's only so much content a development team can make and release at a time. To give at part of that content some longevity to keep players engaged, they make the content repeatable.

The player has the option to repeat content or not. They can choose to repeat it so many times that it turns into a grind if they want. There's nothing to stop the playing from doing that if they find it fun. Games have taken that habit that some players have and created achievements to recognize some of the grinds.

If you don't find the content fun enough to repeat, then don't. Do something else with your time that you consider fun.

There's a problem if you're relying on a single game for all your entertainment needs but you are not having fun playing it but that problem starts and ends with you. It's on you to make the change, not on others to change things to your liking.