[6.0 - 6.4 Spoilers] An interesting video detailing Venat's polarizing reception

[Absimiliard]

People being mean to you isn't really an argument against their positions.

Nor did I remotely imply it was. Not really the point I was making at all. The rightness or wrongness of the positions being espoused really isn't important for our context here, at least for the time being.

Besides, most of what gets discussed about Endwalker is subjective anyway. For example, let's say I take a look at Zenos and go, "he was a really messed up dude." That would be an opinion I've formed based on information provided to me by the story, yes? If that opinion is not rooted in facts provided by the story, sure, it could be wrong in the sense that it was spawned by a lack of understanding. But what if it isn't? What if that opinion is rooted firmly in the information provided by the game and other canon sources? Suddenly it's a lot harder to say it's objectively wrong. Someone could disagree with it, but that wouldn't make it objectively wrong. The difference between not agreeing with something and it being objectively wrong is rather significant.

[Cilia]

Stalking, harassment, death threats, doxxing, and/or worse are inexcusable on any front - any front. That said escalation is a two-way front - if someone reacts negatively to criticism (fair or otherwise), the best response is not to antagonize them. Animosity doesn't reach this level overnight, and you cannot control the reactions of others. Acknowledge their viewpoint as valid, state your disagreement, and move on - don't tell them they're wrong, "blindly conforming to a biased narrative," "not thinking critically," etc. It's possible for people to go in with the same information and reach different conclusions, and that's not indicative of intelligence or wisdom on anybody's part.

Private discussion venues are a very double-edged sword. Only one viewpoint tends to be promoted over all others, with those others being excluded (naturally or by moderation), turning it into an echo chamber. Echo chambers are very dangerous because without dissenting opinions the one being echoed tends to be radicalized, which can cause severe backlash when it gets out because it's so radical. People with these radical opinions then take the backlash as validation their opinions are correct, creating a feedback loop... and commiserating with others along with videos that exist pretty much just to validate their opinions don't help.

I can't speak to other discussion venues, because I completely avoid them out of awareness of just how toxic they are or can become. Even here I admit I've not been a "perfect angel who can do no wrong," have no interest in further opening old wounds, and am sorry for anything I've said that hurt anyone.

... but to pretend one side of the fence is wholly to blame for the toxicity is absolutely disingenuous. Absolutely.

[thegreatonemal]

So it's probably best that the side that keeps dragging this years discussion up to do this same merry go round should stop right? Since they can't seem to take critiques of their points and there is no swaying them and it just descends into to this circle jerk.
The only thing I'd disagree on with Cilia is that yes, people can be wrong and it's okay to say that regardless of weather or not they want to change their stance. Given the matter at hand it's perfectly fine to not like Venat or not think the reasons given in the story are good enough. All well in good. You can't just dismiss that though. To do so is to be incorrect.

[Iscah]

Venat gets not one but two songs dedicated to her. "with hearts alligned" is from the player's pespective and is basically a gratitude bomb for helping us get this far.

Is that the "Wings of Hope" song? I honestly never connected that to Hydaelyn. It only ever comes up in that final fight against the Endsinger and so seems connected to Meteion for me – a somewhat abstract, more hopeful vision of what she could be instead of this.

[Magikazam]

So it's probably best that the side that keeps dragging this years discussion up to do this same merry go round should stop right? Since they can't seem to take critiques of their points and there is no swaying them and it just descends into to this circle jerk.
The only thing I'd disagree on with Cilia is that yes, people can be wrong and it's okay to say that regardless of weather or not they want to change their stance. Given the matter at hand it's perfectly fine to not like Venat or not think the reasons given in the story are good enough. All well in good. You can't just dismiss that though. To do so is to be incorrect.

I mean, the forum is a public open space to talk about lore. I don't see why people should stop talking about lore topics. Even if the topic is old. It just seems to me that FF14 player base love to dismiss any critics of the story, especially on fan-favorite characters.

People complained about Y'shtola, Hien and Lyse a lot back in the day. It doesn't even matter if the critics are legit or not. It just that some people are way to insecure about their opinion on the story and usually make it hard for people that are less...intense to discuss about the topic.

[T-rexpectation]

Is that the "Wings of Hope" song? I honestly never connected that to Hydaelyn. It only ever comes up in that final fight against the Endsinger and so seems connected to Meteion for me – a somewhat abstract, more hopeful vision of what she could be instead of this.

That's a fair interpretation. I used to think the same, but i think it sort of covers WoL, post-fight Meteion and Hydaelyn all at once. My point is really that songs like Flow would essentially be intentionally torturous if the devs thought hating Venat was a serious position a significant proportion of the fanbase would take. They work for me because the greyness of the story isn't supposed to be a hard-utilitarian one, but a kinda emotional one, since a lot of players end up interpersonally liking Emet and Venat.

[KizuyaKatogami]

So it's probably best that the side that keeps dragging this years discussion up to do this same merry go round should stop right? Since they can't seem to take critiques of their points and there is no swaying them and it just descends into to this circle jerk.
The only thing I'd disagree on with Cilia is that yes, people can be wrong and it's okay to say that regardless of weather or not they want to change their stance. Given the matter at hand it's perfectly fine to not like Venat or not think the reasons given in the story are good enough. All well in good. You can't just dismiss that though. To do so is to be incorrect.

Proving my point here yet again. Correct me if i’m wrong, we’re still in Endwalker? It’s genuinely baffling to me you say something of “stop talking about the expansions story and the characters involved” when we’re literally still in that very expansion and said expansions story was the tie up of a 10 year long story arc. Also again, denouncing this thread as nothing more than a “circlejerk.” You come into this thread about Venat, complain about it being about Venat, question people on why they’re still talking about Venat. You don’t have to click the thread. At this point like i said before it seems like you’re truly addicted to this. Trying to disprove “wrongthink” and silence anyone who speaks out, the very thing i’ve stated is part of the reason the videos were made in the first place. Basically “stop talking about lore in the lore forum.”

As far as escalating others goes, it is not my responsibility to mince words. I assume the people here are adults. I am not going to treat them like children when they should be able to act like adults. It’s odd to me how you all keep saying to “move on” yet who keeps coming into these threads knowing what it’s about and trying to denounce it?

[thegreatonemal]

Proving my point here yet again. Correct me if i’m wrong, we’re still in Endwalker? It’s genuinely baffling to me you say something of “stop talking about the expansions story and the characters involved” when we’re literally still in that very expansion and said expansions story was the tie up of a 10 year long story arc. Also again, denouncing this thread as nothing more than a “circlejerk.” You come into this thread about Venat, complain about it being about Venat, question people on why they’re still talking about Venat. You don’t have to click the thread. At this point like i said before it seems like you’re truly addicted to this. Trying to disprove “wrongthink” and silence anyone who speaks out, the very thing i’ve stated is part of the reason the videos were made in the first place. Basically “stop talking about lore in the lore forum.”

As far as escalating others goes, it is not my responsibility to mince words. I assume the people here are adults. I am not going to treat them like children when they should be able to act like adults. It’s odd to me how you all keep saying to “move on” yet who keeps coming into these threads knowing what it’s about and trying to denounce it?

You don't have a point, that's the general core of all this, well that and not knowing what an opinion is. The topic has remained the same since the release of endwalker and what little additional information has come out continues to disprove the stuff you guys say, when this is brought up in discussions you lot get pretty to people. Not only that you don't tend to keep it to threads about this particular topic. A final point is you're adding nothing new to the talks, at this point you may as well just copy past post from other threads. Calling me addicted is hilarious though, you have been at this for years and this conversation extends back to Shadowbringers.

You don't have to mince words but you also complain that others are mean to you. When you and your are the ones that started that because people disagreed with your assessment of the story we all saw. So you've got a choice, either be more respectful to people or at the very least drop the topic until some information that comes out that supports your view, since you clearly can't handle dissent without crying harassment, like a child. You seem to mistake what is being denounced. The video has the tone of someone who's mad that people don't agree with their view of the story and comes across like that. But I guess since critical analysis is in the title so that must make it legitimate, right?

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Clearly there is a point here, because you and many others haven’t been able to disprove it. When provided evidence that refute *your* claims, you whine that it doesn’t count or you don’t want to watch the videos. And yes, you are addicted. You come into a thread clearly meant for a discussion about Venat just to complain about people talking about her. Also you tried to claim before i’ve been constantly here posting about Venat yet i’ve literally been unsubbed for a year and a half almost 2 years. You’re delusional and it’s genuinely kind of creepy that you seem to see me everywhere, might want to get that looked at.

As for “others being mean to me.” I’m not talking about petty insults or squabbles. I’m talking about obsessive Venat fans going so far out of their way as to threaten sexual harassment, go forward with doxxing peoples personal lives, and much more. Name a time we’ve done anything of the sort i’ll wait. As for your choices, what if i don’t adhere to them? Who decided to make you the lore authoritarian? You literally don’t even know common lore stated in game factually proven.

Lastly about the tone, seeing as you’re the only person to even comment on that i’m going to assume that’s purely bias talking, especially because upon hearing the video, the creator seemed to maintain a neutral vocal stance and merely brought up in game evidence to support their claims. It seems like at this point you’re grasping for straws. I would suggest you quit the flailing, take a break from lore or the forums in general and realize how delusional you sound here. Especially when you try to claim i sound like a child when in reality you and many others dissent comes from “DONT TALK BAD ABOUT MOMMY D:” Get real.

[Cilia]

I mean, the forum is a public open space to talk about lore. I don't see why people should stop talking about lore topics. Even if the topic is old. It just seems to me that FF14 player base love to dismiss any critics of the story, especially on fan-favorite characters.

People complained about Y'shtola, Hien and Lyse a lot back in the day. It doesn't even matter if the critics are legit or not. It just that some people are way to insecure about their opinion on the story and usually make it hard for people that are less...intense to discuss about the topic.

The thing about it is this subject isn't really about discussion or debate; the people who bring this subject up time and again are just looking for validation of their opinions. As a public discussion space people are free to bring up whatever topics they want, but should have the wisdom to recognize when irreconcilable differences of opinion exist and the maturity to not go around kicking hornet's nests.

Some people like and enjoy the game in spite of criticism; that doesn't make them lesser, but said critics often espouse this idea when their criticism is rebuffed or not validated. People are passionate about the game, on both sides of the fence; I don't think that's a bad thing, but there has to be a point where you recognize you aren't convincing anyone of anything (preaching to the choir doesn't count) and discussion is unproductive. 1.5 years in should be well past that point.