[6.0 - 6.4 Spoilers] An interesting video detailing Venat's polarizing reception

[T-rexpectation]

Mass reporting and threats, my dude. Some people take this game a little too seriously. Some vocal detractors of Endwalker and its characters, but in particular Venat, have met with types of backlash that come with actual consequences. Words on a screen screen can really only rustle somebody's jimmies if they allow it, but getting your accounts mass reported into oblivion because you had an opinion is something I think any reasonable person would agree is a problem, yeah? I'm not going to claim to know who was doing what when or whatever, but I can tell you from first hand experience some people were willing to get downright nasty over it

That kind of behaviour is obviously inexcusable, and I'm sorry you expierienced such a thing because of a videogame opinion. I think what induces this amount of vitriol on the forums specifically, is that one, you're associated with your ingame avatar here to an extent that doesn't happen on other sites and two, the writers played fast and loose with the lore of the world that avatar lives in to complete their emotional storytelling. It seems to me that endwalker was written partly backwards like a Nier game with the player's emotions in mind. When it's like that, analysing sets of dialogue is just an exercise in frustration, because framing and music and other aesthetic elements aren't just important, but might have more weight than what characters say and do. Ultima Thule is this writing style made manifest, and it worked for most people I interact with online, (mostly reddit and youtube comment sections).

Venat gets not one but two songs dedicated to her. "with hearts alligned" is from the player's pespective and is basically a gratitude bomb for helping us get this far. The other is "flow" which paints Venat as a gentle observer watching the souls of mortal cycling through the Eitherial sea for the sake of a "tomorrow", which I intrepret to be the day we finally meet Meteion. All this including Yoshi-p crying again and again when watching the Hydaelyn confrontation seems to suggest to me that the game uses all of the tools at it's disposal to make liking and accepting Venat and her actions, "right", from an emotional and thematic standpoint. I understand how that might not work for poster on a lore forum, but I think the emotiononal "go with the flow" angle is the only real way to "get" endwalker the way millions of others have, but that's not everyone's cup of tea.

[Fenral]

That kind of behaviour is obviously inexcusable, and I'm sorry you expierienced such a thing because of a videogame opinion.

While I can't condone in-game harassment, I do suggest reading over this thread before you fully buy into the crocodile tears. (You won't be able to read any of the removed posts, but rest assured they were bad.) The mods here are silent entities who don't really act unless people cross very obvious harassment lines, but also won't act unless people report posts, and even then still may not. They won't simply ban people for unpopular opinions, and this can be observed: many accounts known for being very vocal with those opinions dropped back in to Lore simply to post in this thread.

[T-rexpectation]

While I can't condone in-game harassment, I do suggest reading over this thread before you fully buy into the crocodile tears. (You won't be able to read any of the removed posts, but rest assured they were bad.) The mods here are silent entities who don't really act unless people cross very obvious harassment lines, but also won't act unless people report posts, and even then still may not. They won't simply ban people for unpopular opinions, and this can be observed: many accounts known for being very vocal with those opinions dropped back in to Lore simply to post in this thread.

Yeah, I think it's interesting how some of them absolutely despise being called the minority opinion, when some posters here have admitted to things like echoes of etheiris's channel being a "safe space" for people critical of Venat. Feeling like you need a safe space while claiming to hold the opinions of a silent majority is very sussy behaviour. This is why I'm genuinly concerned, because it seems these people's reaction to endwalker and it's discourse has twisted their psychology to a point which i don't just concider unhealthy, but socially ruinous. I first researched this because someone argued with me on a youtube comment like their lives depended on it. I'm not afraid to admit I'm a pretty sensitive person, so I was actually kinda shaken by the response. Like, it's fine to have an unpopular opinion, but that's an inherently painful thing to some extent, as endwalker sort of points out. I don't believe in retributitive justice, and there are pretty much no interpersonal safe spaces for that position that doesn't collapse when someone has a bad day. I accept that and move on. I don't try to convince myself I have an army of allies in the shadows. If being critical of Venat gets you ostracised from social media, then you have to admit it's a minority opinion.

[Absimiliard]

If being critical of Venat gets you ostracised from social media, then you have to admit it's a minority opinion.

I don't think most people espousing negative views of Endwalker do think they're in the majority, at least none of the ones I've had any association with did. They were largely under the impression their opinions would be perceived as hot takes, and so they quietly walked away from the game. A few of them did try to voice their opinions on social media prior to leaving, but uh... let's just say it didn't go well. Now, when I say "voice their opinions," I mean in the form of respectful, insightful critique of the content as presented, utilizing facts and not solely their feelings on the matter. Mind you, I'm not talking just Venat here. Some of them had gameplay critiques, some had issues with the story not related to Venat, and some multiple grievances. I'm sure you get the point.

The most interesting thing I noticed while observing all this take place was how different the reactions people got were. Those offering the most well-thought criticism seemed to receive the most enthusiastic push-back from the community, while those being vitriolic airheads saw little to no engagement. Or, phrased in a more straightforward manner, those with critiques worth reading wound up getting absolutely buried in salt. Notably, it did seem mentioning Venat in particular would invite the largest quantity of salt. There were of course some good faith individuals looking for a proper discussion on the matter, but they were typically drowned out by far less eloquent posters. When you're getting blasted from all sides, it can be kinda hard to find and focus on those individuals who've indicated a willingness to engage with you respectfully.

It's completely fine to disagree with someone. Hell, as weird as it is, some of the most intellectually engaging conversations I've had pertaining to this game came in the form of debating other players on various issues. Somewhere along the way people decided to choose debasing over debating, much to the chagrin of myself and presumably others. It's not just a problem here, though. It's a problem everywhere, and it seems to be getting worse with time. A fair amount of it stems from people's tendency to perceive criticism of something they like as an attack and become defensive, I suppose.

[T-rexpectation]

I don't think most people espousing negative views of Endwalker do think they're in the majority, at least none of the ones I've had any association with did. They were largely under the impression their opinions would be perceived as hot takes, and so they quietly walked away from the game. A few of them did try to voice their opinions on social media prior to leaving, but uh... let's just say it didn't go well. Now, when I say "voice their opinions," I mean in the form of respectful, insightful critique of the content as presented, utilizing facts and not solely their feelings on the matter. Mind you, I'm not talking just Venat here. Some of them had gameplay critiques, some had issues with the story not related to Venat, and some multiple grievances. I'm sure you get the point.

The most interesting thing I noticed while observing all this take place was how different the reactions people got were. Those offering the most well-thought criticism seemed to receive the most enthusiastic push-back from the community, while those being vitriolic airheads saw little to no engagement. Or, phrased in a more straightforward manner, those with critiques worth reading wound up getting absolutely buried in salt. Notably, it did seem mentioning Venat in particular would invite the largest quantity of salt. There were of course some good faith individuals looking for a proper discussion on the matter, but they were typically drowned out by far less eloquent posters. When you're getting blasted from all sides, it can be kinda hard to find and focus on those individuals who've indicated a willingness to engage with you respectfully.

It's completely fine to disagree with someone. Hell, as weird as it is, some of the most intellectually engaging conversations I've had pertaining to this game came in the form of debating other players on various issues. Somewhere along the way people decided to choose debasing over debating, much to the chagrin of myself and presumably others. It's not just a problem here, though. It's a problem everywhere, and it seems to be getting worse with time. A fair amount of it stems from people's tendency to perceive criticism of something they like as an attack and become defensive, I suppose.

People being mean to you isn't really an argument against their positions. You can be right and mean, though it would be nice to have one without the other.

[Absimiliard]

People being mean to you isn't really an argument against their positions.

Nor did I remotely imply it was. Not really the point I was making at all. The rightness or wrongness of the positions being espoused really isn't important for our context here, at least for the time being.

Besides, most of what gets discussed about Endwalker is subjective anyway. For example, let's say I take a look at Zenos and go, "he was a really messed up dude." That would be an opinion I've formed based on information provided to me by the story, yes? If that opinion is not rooted in facts provided by the story, sure, it could be wrong in the sense that it was spawned by a lack of understanding. But what if it isn't? What if that opinion is rooted firmly in the information provided by the game and other canon sources? Suddenly it's a lot harder to say it's objectively wrong. Someone could disagree with it, but that wouldn't make it objectively wrong. The difference between not agreeing with something and it being objectively wrong is rather significant.

[Iscah]

Venat gets not one but two songs dedicated to her. "with hearts alligned" is from the player's pespective and is basically a gratitude bomb for helping us get this far.

Is that the "Wings of Hope" song? I honestly never connected that to Hydaelyn. It only ever comes up in that final fight against the Endsinger and so seems connected to Meteion for me – a somewhat abstract, more hopeful vision of what she could be instead of this.

[T-rexpectation]

Is that the "Wings of Hope" song? I honestly never connected that to Hydaelyn. It only ever comes up in that final fight against the Endsinger and so seems connected to Meteion for me – a somewhat abstract, more hopeful vision of what she could be instead of this.

That's a fair interpretation. I used to think the same, but i think it sort of covers WoL, post-fight Meteion and Hydaelyn all at once. My point is really that songs like Flow would essentially be intentionally torturous if the devs thought hating Venat was a serious position a significant proportion of the fanbase would take. They work for me because the greyness of the story isn't supposed to be a hard-utilitarian one, but a kinda emotional one, since a lot of players end up interpersonally liking Emet and Venat.