I was almost in the mood to play FF14 again

[Spigg]

...unlike SAM, I do play NIN some. It's the only Melee that I really ALMOST like (I'm much more of a Caster or Ranged type person when I play damage dealer, but I actually really loved NIN before SB and especially ShB, still play it, still practice openers, and on rare occasion when my friends need a Melee, it's my go-to), and I wish they'd really play more into the fast/agile attacker and Ninjutsu system, personally. Give each Ninjutsu an interaction ability (not the best example, but something like how SMN has Astral Flow or GNB's Continuation [GNB did it first...] where each Ninjutsu has something different, like Raiton having Raiju) so that it really plays into that mechanic and is like the NIN using their magic more.

Ninki just ain't it. What even IS it? It's not Ninjutsu, it doesn't use hand signs, but it's also not their standard martial combat skills. You can just poop out a frog to spit a fireball.......because reasons? There's a scroll that calls to mind Naruto and Summon pacts, but we don't make one in the lore or Job quests. And then Bhavacackra and Bunshin are just...there? And Phantom? I mean, it's cool going back to Shade Shift to have your Shadow as a semi-combat familiar, but what is the lore behind that? And what is Bhavacackra? Like, in lore...what is it? No handsign, so it's not a magic induced attack so...then what is it? What IS Ninki?

...yeah.

Not to get too off topic...

But I used to main NIN back in ShB (when I started the game), and for most of the beginning of EW. And boy, oh boy, do I agree with getting rid of Ninki and specing more into ninjutsu and adding more interaction with it. Give us a fiery raiju after using Katon! Maybe allow mixes of different Ninjutsu! NIN really has so much cool potential, and I hope the devs can really just run wild with it. I've always had the fantasy of a rework to Hyoton (The base of hyosho ranryu that is probably the least used ability in the entirety of the game) that would act as a general damage buff(like drg's power surge), and unlock an ice variant of the melee combo. I've always loved attack enhancements that you have to think about and press a button for. I think thats why I liked kaiten so much.

[Arohk]

Genuine question, from someone who decided to level SAM just recently in a post-Kaiten world, why exactly people miss it so much? I ask that because right now, the job's rotation feels really good and engaging. Idk, I'd probably join the chorus if I tried it before.

You can ignore these crybabies, they are high on Copium. Kaiten was useless button bloat for the sake of resource management. i was very happy when i saw it gone in endwalker.

[ZiraZ]

You can ignore these crybabies, they are high on Copium. Kaiten was useless button bloat for the sake of resource management. i was very happy when i saw it gone in endwalker.

Do you even play SAM, or is this another of those "Many such cases" of not even understanding what button bloat is?

[Shurrikhan]

And what is Bhavacackra? Like, in lore...what is it? No handsign, so it's not a magic induced attack so...then what is it? What IS Ninki?

Most of the iconology/archetypes FF's Ninja job draws from comes from the Shinobi/Ninja around the Warring States period. During that time, most ninja were Buddhist monks or otherwise affiliated with the similarly Buddhist peasant collectives formed in the 一向一揆 uprising (historical exonym: the Jōdo Shinshū Buddhist Uprising -- no the metaphorical allusions to turning / the wheel in that name are not unintentional) against feudal rule. Ninjutsu, meanwhile, refers to itself as much a mental as physical art.

That the Bhavacakra ("wheel of life" or literally "being/birth/origin" and "wheel", but amounting to "rotation/circle/wheel", "rite/inner circle (of people/fellowship)", or even "the intersection of nerves / meridians"), a chief Buddhist symbol of death and rebirth is found on Ninja... shouldn't surprise anyone. It's still ninjutsu; it's still a magic-induced attack. Jobs are allowed to draw from their history and historical implications beyond a single one-note mechanic.

I'll readily agree that the implementation of the skill should have been more interesting, but I have no issue with its thematic territory being included in some way. Nor do I particularly mind the comedic Naruto reference of Hellfrog Medium any more than I'd find Ninja's run animation unacceptable just because it doesn't involve handsigns.

Implementation could be better, of course, but what they're drawing from isn't an issue.

"SAM meanwhile: Kaiten was bad and should stay gone. Let the animation come back for next expansion, but the skill needs a different effect or be better tied to how the Job's played."

It took literally 1 sentence more to make clear that its implications were not as you made them out to be. It notes that the effect should have been replaced, not that the job is better off for lacking anything in its place. That's not advocacy for its removal, nor for a lack of replacement.

[kayll]

I simply happened to think your earlier claim that wanting Kaiten back is somehow born of 'Meleewalker entitlement' is absurd.

I don't even know what to say tbh, this is the third post in a row where you claim I say something that isn't actually there, no point in continuing conversing with you.

cause Samurai's are loud because we care about what happens to our Job vs theirs being neglected? Heck I even vouched for QOL changes to RDM, I am not crapping on any other Job unless its BLM cause we all do it, it's Yoshi P's love child.

Just when I thought I was unhinged... someone 1-ups me... crazy, mhm.

"Loud" is an understatement.
Imagine kicking and screaming for an entire year over such a miniscule change in a video game and then calling other people unhinged.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't even know what to say tbh, this is the third post in a row where you claim I say something that isn't actually there, no point in continuing conversing with you.

EW spoiled the melee players, If you don't roll out the red carpet for them they'll make a lot of noise.
I suggest you make a new Kaiten thread to make amends and they may just deign to forgive you for your sleight against them.

There's effectively one instance of Melee getting gameplay improvements over this expansion: two oversights being corrected from NIN, effectively just fixing what they broke on release.

Again, potency is not gameplay, and there were no melee threads "kicking and screaming" about hitboxes covering less than half the pathable floor (despite, strangely enough, there being many complaints about said hitboxes feeling like obese, air-punched messes that make meleeing less engaging), nor threads by actual Samurai players asking to have Samurai simplified (despite many asking for those simplifications to be reverted), only to have some of its wholly unnecessary button-bloat pruned with very explicit mention not to prune actions.

So, where is this "red carpet" that Melee gameplay has seen, as it would apply to actual melee players (and not just those who would like to be able to hit the boss from nearly the back of the room, regardless of their job)?

Imagine kicking and screaming for an entire year over such a miniscule change

Alright, picture this:

The forums and Twitter post to the Live Letter Q&A Thread a question about whether Red Mage will ever be able to deal competitive damage, and whether raids will ever slightly rein back the amount of movement required. In the LL thereafter, Yoshida says that Red Mage will see compensation for its low rDPS relative to its advantages (especially, opposite Summoner) and that those mobility requirements are being considered.

In the next patch, then, Red Mage loses its cast time on Jolt, Verfire, Verstone, Verthunder II, and Veraero II, but Acceleration is removed now that it would be largely redundant 'bloat'. (At this same time, Bard, Machinist, and Dancer see rDPS increases, bringing them in line with Summoner; rDPS sees only these removals of cast times as its boost to competitiveness.)

Keep in mind, per your comments, you should in no way feel miffed that the 'solution' to your critiques was so twisted, and under no circumstance should you ask for Acceleration back as shorthand for reversions to all that was affected by that change.

[Deo14]

"Loud" is an understatement.
Imagine kicking and screaming for an entire year over such a miniscule change in a video game and then calling other people unhinged.

[kayll]

...

Dang, that looks like more changes than some others have received in the entirety of Endwalker, SAM truly is a blessed class.
You got me, a list of potency increases and quality of life across the board for SAM is a sure sign the class is dead.

[Shurrikhan]

Dang, that looks like more changes than some others have received in the entirety of Endwalker, SAM truly is a blessed class.

If only they weren't all negatives.

And no, reducing a skill's range by 38% just so that people don't have to bother targeting an appropriate enemy with it... is not a QoL buff except a very narrow group (those sufficiently incapable of basic gameplay mechanics).

[CelestiCer]

You can ignore these crybabies, they are high on Copium. Kaiten was useless button bloat for the sake of resource management. i was very happy when i saw it gone in endwalker.

Coming from a GNB main =u=;