I was almost in the mood to play FF14 again

[kayll]

Look at any of the threads about gameplay that actually have Melee posting in them, instead of just ranged DPS pushing for the removal of all positionals and range constraints so that Melee could finally appeal to them (instead of, you know, playing the shit that was intended for those who like neither positionals nor range constraints)?

What? How does that even make sense, ranged players are the cause of positional and uptime management being removed from melee, how do you figure that?
That is like straight up conspiracy talk tbh

Hell, just go to any WAR thread that so much as mentions Overpower, and you'll see SAMs empathizing with the loss of conal AoEs and the movement having both conals and radials used to provide.

Uhhh ,SAM must have it pretty good if one the complaints you are mentioning with is the shape of an AoE attack you don't use in any meaningful content.

Again, not every "QoL buff" is well-received. Many prefer active gameplay over that value being provided for free.

Yet strangely,some how,SAM make more noise than SMN.

[Shurrikhan]

What? How does that even make sense, ranged players are the cause of positional and uptime management being removed from melee, how do you figure that?

I didn't. Those are your words, not mine.

You asked for where you'd see SAMs complaining about other simplifications of their job and/or melee-range play outside of Kaiten threads / threads that mention Kaiten. You can find them almost anywhere other jobs complain about simplifications to their job, especially if those simplifications affected something specific to melee-range play.

Uhhh ,SAM must have it pretty good if one the complaints you are mentioning with is the shape of an AoE attack you don't use in any meaningful content.

You ask for what other complaints they'd have that'd stand apart from removal of Kaiten (which itself bundled complaints surrounding the rationale for its removal or what the "fix" failed to fix -- bundled into it (e.g., that the problem wasn't action bloat, but rather button bloat, which would have made Shoha/Shoha II, Ikishoten/Namikiri, and/or Guren/Senei button-swaps/consolidations a better solution).

Since Kaiten was a keystone component around which quite a few different considerations/gameplay components intersected, that doesn't leave much.

• That the gauge was made basically irrelevant outside of being a number of Shinten charges? Directly, if not solely, caused by the removal of Kaiten.
• Lack of gauge margining? Directly, if not solely, caused by the removal of Kaiten.
• Continued button bloat? Caused by the devs misunderstanding prior complaints of "unnecessary button bloat" as "action bloat" and thereby removing Kaiten instead of allowing skills solely available after using another CD to take the button-position of that CD, etc.

Yet strangely,some how,SAM make more noise than SMN.

Probably because the one at least offered something in place of what it removed. The other just left that void.

[kayll]

I didn't. Those are your words, not mine.

Never once did I mention ranged players at all, are you trying to extrapolate something that isn't there? You may need to reread my message.
My issue is the extremely selective complaints and hyper focus of complaints of Kaiten when there is more wrong with the melee role in general, Its been over a year, its stale and its played out.
There are no recent threads about these issues because these issues are mostly beneficial to the class, Yet every other day there is a NEW Kaiten thread, repeating the exact same things, you all may as well make a leaflet.
And before you retort with "adding Kaiten back would add complexity and difficulty", is "Press X before Y, every time or you are trolling" really the complexity you absolutely MUST have in the game?
Is the bar that low?
I get losing skills sucks but a borderline redundant "next skill do big more damage" skill?

You ask for what other complaints they'd have that'd stand apart from removal of Kaiten.

Never did that either, I know what the complaints are, I asked where are they, Why are they so few?
Yet there are 5 threads on the first page about Kaiten, and even then, This seems like an extremely minor complaint, Cause again how important are your AoE attacks in meaningful content?

Dunno if you are trying to put words in my mouth or just reading into my previous message way too much but it was pretty cut I like to think.
I didn't give my two cents about Kaiten in general until it just became annoying spam of SAM acting like its the end of the world for a year straight.

[Ggwppino]

Probably because the one at least offered something in place of what it removed. The other just left that void.

I would say absolutely not. The smn just missed badly in depth.
I lost all considerations I had to do and got a bare job. Clearly halfway out. A rather poorly designed work, from the progress to its components, with a carbuncle that no longer does anything on 4 of the 6 old keys and that has nothing to do with the new fantasy, with 2 identical burst phases with spam for 15 seconds of a single button.
Only problem? that new smn has brought too many people into high-level content and if you try to point out how sadly bare the job is, there are all those people who say they enjoy spamming a single button with no cast, especially enjoying the fact that the old smn users lost 21/22 of their fun, because those who like to play a class and therefore hate single button spam are the weird ones.

Having said that, you are right to complain that they are thinning your gameplay more and more. It ends up that all the classes will be identical because of this crusade to empty the classes.


It must also be said that the smn who complained were rather disciplined (?) and did it right in two/three posts of 20 pages or so.

[Shurrikhan]

My issue is the extremely selective complaints and hyper focus of complaints of Kaiten when there is more wrong with the melee role in general, Its been over a year, its stale and its played out.

People can make, do make, and have made complaints about the larger state of gameplay and the simplifications of the melee role in general atop complaints about Kaiten. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Why do you see fewer complaints about those things now?

• Because the response to complaints about conal AoEs being turned into circles (starting as far back as Fuga becoming Fuko) was "Here's another conal AoE turned into a radial AoE," followed by "Here, we made the circle bigger."
• Because the response to Senei and Guren costing only as much as Shinten, making our Kenki expenditure feel stale and largely like just spamming Shinten, was to literally make all non-situational Kenki expenditure equal to Shinten.
• Because the response to "True Strike is barely worth having on our hotbars now because it contributes such little damage over Twin Snakes and is a net loss if the latter falls off for even a single GCD" was to buff Blitz.
• Etc., etc.

People get tired of bringing up the same complaints to a wall, especially if those complaints take effort to contextualize. That's why discourse dies out with silent treatment or being repeatedly intentionally misconstrued... while memes alone survive like cockroaches.

Why did "Bring back Kaiten" survive when most other discourse increasingly ebbed per patch cycle? It's short, simple, and synecdochal.

And before you retort with "adding Kaiten back would add complexity and difficulty", is "Press X before Y, every time or you are trolling" really the complexity you absolutely MUST have in the game?

I don't have much have much horse in the race either way. I thought Kaiten should be redesigned from the start, as it was arguably more interesting pre-Kenki Mastery. I simply happened to think your earlier claim that wanting Kaiten back is somehow born of 'Meleewalker entitlement' is absurd.

Potency is not gameplay, and its the melee-range jobs (SAM, WAR, PLD, and [the gameplay consequent to TA on] NIN especially) that have been most hit with the simplification bat. Though individually small, it's literally a complicator. People don't ask for complicators as a buff.

And even that is ignoring, rather foolishly, that complaints about Kaiten's removal aren't just about what Kaiten individually added in that single game-state; it's about removal and having critiques purposely misconstrued.

I get losing skills sucks but a borderline redundant "next skill do big more damage" skill?

Kaiten itself added gauge margining -- which itself includes threat of over-expenditure, especially prior to periods which would also make use of Gyoten and/or wanting to fully spend Kenki under raid-buffs. It wasn't much, but it was something. A something that wasn't replaced. Again, being annoyed by Kaiten's removal does not necessitate that one particularly liked Kaiten, only that they preferred having it to having nothing in its place.

Imo, the Senei/Guren cost reduction and moving their CDs to equal that of their generator (Ikishoten) had a larger impact per potential conflict and, I feel, caused slightly more simplification overall, but Kaiten's was definitely the more frequent.. and there's no prize for being the worse loss.

EDIT: Naturally, Trick Attack's raid buff being moved to Mug also played into this somewhat, especially under higher SkS, since you'd otherwise have a greater portion of unbuffed damage. Note also that the no-Kaiten changes included arbitrary reshuffling our damage away from our core skills and even removed edge case uses like Tenka dealing half as much damage as Midare in just 5-8s the GCDs of prep; it now requires 4 targets to break even, up from formerly being a bonus at 2. Again, Kaiten's loss bundled many a trickle-down effect.

[Deo14]

If you people would stop using hyperbole like "unanimous" to bolster your argument, no one would need to point out it's not, in fact, unanimous. You can't use something as an argument in support of your position then get upset when someone shows that argument is faulty.

I feel like you're the kind of guy who sees "100% orange juice" and start yelling at the store manager, saying that they're lying, because there is not such a thing as 100% in real world. Yes, words like unanimous, perfect and similar are mere concepts, nothing is ever perfect or unanimous, should we stop using them so you're happy? Can you start going after arguments, instead going after technicalities for once? Attack the idea, not technicalities. Especially since this isn't some br*tish or USA forums, english is second language for many, don't expect that everyone knows exact definition of every common word.

Will you finally link those "well thought out counters to it having been removed", I'm still waiting for them.

[CelestiCer]

Good, I'm happy kaiten is gone. Stop crying about your crit button girls don't think it's cool lol

A housing enthusiasts coming to the DPS subsection to ...mock a feature of something he doesn't even play? First, you dont' know what girls like otherwise you would know that I love my Kaiten. Secondly? your 2 houses isn't impressing my 4 with 20 rooms. Go back to your... housing posts for peasants or something, mhm

[CelestiCer]

Celest, you around?? Still got the list of the dozen or so threads requesting reverts to 6.0 or late-Shadowbringers gameplay (w/ small additions/adjustments)?


Riiigght... because signatures are the place to put in-depth, highly-contextualized feedback, rather than typically being best used synecdochally through some salient example?


Look at any of the threads about gameplay that actually have Melee posting in them, instead of just ranged DPS pushing for the removal of all positionals and range constraints so that Melee could finally appeal to them (instead of, you know, playing the shit that was intended for those who like neither positionals nor range constraints)?

Hell, just go to any WAR thread that so much as mentions Overpower, and you'll see SAMs empathizing with the loss of conal AoEs and the movement having both conals and radials used to provide.

Again, not every "QoL buff" is well-received. Many prefer active gameplay over that value being provided for free.

Shurrikhan, this RDM? thinks we all want Melee to have it easier... in a Kaiten thread which ironically is against the brainless spamming of Shinten. I mean... serious question... do we think they are being Stupid unknowingly? or willingly being Stupid? or RP-ing being Stupid... and did it stem from being jealous? cause Samurai's are loud because we care about what happens to our Job vs theirs being neglected? Heck I even vouched for QOL changes to RDM, I am not crapping on any other Job unless its BLM cause we all do it, it's Yoshi P's love child.

Just when I thought I was unhinged... someone 1-ups me... crazy, mhm.

[Renathras]

I would say absolutely not. The smn just missed badly in depth.

SMN is fine as a Job, and the most I've enjoyed SMN since 2.5. Each expansion after made the Job worse and worse, and now it's back to being coherent again. I do think it should have been a separate Job and the mess that was old SMN retained in some way for people that liked it, but in vacuum, if it had just been added as a new Job so the jaded old SMN players who loved that Frankenstein's monster held together by duct tape and wishes weren't up in arms about losing the thing they loved, it'd be far less hated than it is now since it would be looked at largely as RDM/DNC 2.0. RDM was also called easy and barebones, but people liked it, and its original forms did NOT have much more depth (or any more depth) than current SMN.

I feel like you're the kind of guy who sees "100% orange juice" and start yelling at the store manager,

No, I'm not.

When you're engaged in a discussion, and you're employing RAMPANT hyperbole to support a position, it's fair for someone to point out you shouldn't be doing that and you're wrong. When you're using it as one of the KEY ARGUMENTS in favor of your position, it's MORE than fair for people to point out it's wrong. And when you accuse them of moving goalposts and other ad hominems, trying to bring up completely unrelated discussions and so on to discredit them instead of just admitting "Yes, we're lying to get what we want", then there's reason for them to not give you the time of day AFTER pointing it out.

Unanimous isn't a "mere concept". Rare it is, but there are some things that everyone agrees on. There are times that Parliament/Congress holds a vote and there are no dissenting voices. There are times that groups of people have complete agreement on specific points of things. Some things are, in fact, sometimes unanimous. Meaning when you say unanimous, that actually means something. It means no one disagrees and there is no dissent, PERIOD.

And yes, you shouldn't use such a thing when it's not true.

That's when you use terms like majority or plurality, though for that, you need some kind of official source or tally, not a non-scientific poll equivalent of counting Likes in a medium that has no controls for people voting more than once, brigading votes to overinflate a position, or so on, which we do not in fact have.

And it's LAUGHABLE you're one to ask me to go after arguments instead of technicalities "for once" when I actually presented arguments and your "rebuttals" to me here have all been on technicalities! "Attack the idea, not technicalities" would carry far more weight if not coming from a person who accused me of moving a goal post when I addressed directly someone ELSE'S argument, who then attacked me for not having a max leveled SAM for a topic (seeing if people disagree in forums or not) that doesn't require having a Job leveled to see.

You aren't arguing in good faith and anything I present to you you're going to ignore or also attack, same as you ignored me giving you the player numbers (you didn't even bother to attack the sources, you just ignored I gave it to you so you could lie about it later bringing it up into different discussions).

I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge that so I'm not wasting my time. Because I'm pretty sure if I give you ANY source you're going to attack it/ignore it anyway. "Well, this one only mentioned Kaiten in passing", "Was this person a SAM main? CLEARLY their opinion doesn't count!", etc etc. Heck, in that thread in General are people saying Kaiten being removed was good and saying why they thought so, and you ignored them. If you're just going to ignore such statements, what's the point in showing them to you?

.

And the messed up thing is: I personally don't care either way and would be fine with them returning Kaiten.

I literally have no figurative horse in this race, but you're attacking me for merely pointing out that some of the complaints against Kaiten removal aren't well founded and that there are people that agreed with its removal.

.

EDIT: My position, as posted there:

This is my position as well.

It IS an obsession, people that want it back ARE irrational in how they will lash out at anyone they perceive as preventing that (even if said person has actual arguments or is offering fair rebuttal to them), but I personally don't care. If it made people happy, give it back to them? As long as it isn't making a bunch of other people upset, what's the harm? No one hurt, lots more happy, win-win/net positive.

[Deo14]

I actually presented arguments

You didn't, you merely corrected my use of hyperbole and wrote like 4 essays so far about it. Just send the links for the "well thought out counters to it having been removed" you talked about so the discussion can actually start. So far we've been just throwing technicalities around without anything meaningful.