Yoshi P in a nutshell

[Deo14]

Did healers really get told to just play Ultimates? If you've got the source for this handy I'd love to see it, as that isn't just a terrible suggestion, but terrible PR as well.

There was a huge thread about it. Yoshi obviously said it in Japanese, so community paraphrased it in slightly more mean sounding way, but yes, in LL68, he basically said that first EW raid tier is easier than last tier of ShB, so if you want more challenging content as a healer, then you should try ultimate. That post has a timestamp for that, if you want to hear exact (translated) wording.

While I'm familiar with how dull healing is right now, I'm less familiar with the Kaiten stuff. Seems really suck that they'd ask for feedback and then not follow-up. It makes me wonder if perhaps they're mainly taking Japanese feedback or something? I can't say, but I'll read the thread you provided, maybe that information is already in there.

There should be enough info in my thread, it's long reading, but it should hopefully give you a decent picture of the situation.

As for JP feedback, it's pain in the ass to try and get in touch with them. DeepL or other decent translators have no free browser plugin to translate whole page, and then there's the whole 2ch stuff. But there's one part in my thread regarding the volume of JP feedback on the matter:

Back in july 2022 (6 months after rework) I counted pages on JP's SAM megathread (they use chaotic megathreads for some reason). At the time, thread had 325 pages worth of discussion. Meanwhile, from SAM's release in SB (June 2017) to 6.1, there was just 170 pages. That means 170 pages in 4.5 years vs 155 pages in just half a year after 6.1 release. I think it's safe to say that even JP community wasn't excited about rework.

Both of those together suggest to me that even if for whatever reason the devs aren't catering to Kaiten feedback, there's no reason to think they won't cater to any feedback.

You'll have to get a look into the Kaiten situation to decide for yourself whether you think it's okay that such a relatively simple thing to fix, with such a negative impact on players, is justified.

Fact is that SAM is just 1 job out of 19, yet the amount of uproar it caused was, and still is, pretty significant. When it was recent, a lot of people joined the forums for the first time just to share their displeasure with it, and it definitely felt like a community started to have much more negative outlook on potential future reworks.

[OdinelStarrei]

Fact is that SAM is just 1 job out of 19, yet the amount of uproar it caused was, and still is, pretty significant. When it was recent, a lot of people joined the forums for the first time just to share their displeasure with it, and it definitely felt like a community started to have much more negative outlook on potential future reworks.

Going to have to collaborate on this. This is only from my perspective, but job reworking and design in general has caused some kind of global negativity lens to be placed on almost the entire game for me. As a gameplay focused player, I interact with the game through my job, primarily. If my job or role is not in a good or fun/engaging state, I'm not gonna have a good time, honestly. If I cannot express myself through gameplay, I don't have as much fun. Kaiten getting removed is just another domino in the line of job adjustments that were not designed for the original players of that job.

But when we started getting the dumbest of reasons of WHY Kaiten got removed, WHY tanks/healers are the way there are, it started making people really, really angry. Remember when the DRKs and MCHs were losing their minds over Blood Weapon/Hypercharge not being on the stack system for 2 years, even though it was implemented just fine on similar skills? And Yoshi-P said, lmao, we've received no feedback on that issue? Oh man, I remember seeing red.

Stuff like that in isolation really doesn't matter in the grand scope, but it's apocalyptic to a specific type of dedicated player. The kind who would show up in a SAM cosplay with a sign that says Give Back Kaiten, for example.

At some point, it really started to seem like the Job Design team was...almost deliberately screwing over long time mains of some jobs. Was that intended? Probably not. But it's easier to attribute deliberate malice in the name of accessibility than outright incompetence or total ignorance of the discontent.

[CelestiCer]

Going to have to collaborate on this. This is only from my perspective, but job reworking and design in general has caused some kind of global negativity lens to be placed on almost the entire game for me. As a gameplay focused player, I interact with the game through my job, primarily. If my job or role is not in a good or fun/engaging state, I'm not gonna have a good time, honestly. If I cannot express myself through gameplay, I don't have as much fun. Kaiten getting removed is just another domino in the line of job adjustments that were not designed for the original players of that job.

But when we started getting the dumbest of reasons of WHY Kaiten got removed, WHY tanks/healers are the way there are, it started making people really, really angry. Remember when the DRKs and MCHs were losing their minds over Blood Weapon/Hypercharge not being on the stack system for 2 years, even though it was implemented just fine on similar skills? And Yoshi-P said, lmao, we've received no feedback on that issue? Oh man, I remember seeing red.

Stuff like that in isolation really doesn't matter in the grand scope, but it's apocalyptic to a specific type of dedicated player. The kind who would show up in a SAM cosplay with a sign that says Give Back Kaiten, for example.

At some point, it really started to seem like the Job Design team was...almost deliberately screwing over long time mains of some jobs. Was that intended? Probably not. But it's easier to attribute deliberate malice in the name of accessibility than outright incompetence or total ignorance of the discontent.

While I keep it to mostly only Samurai changes, this worded better then I ever could have phrasedit. Kaiten indeed was just another Domino piece. I was not a fan of many other changes that hit Samurai to simplify and stream line its gameplay. And many a times I do share the idea that... Interesting Content to hardcore players mostly is in High End raiding which only makes up a small percentage of the available PvE combat content available. Trying to make that as engaging as possible? isn't wrong... but at the cost of Jobs is utterly destructive with the added bonus that all other PvE combat content 95% of it becomes such a cakewalk that it is beyond boring to hold our attentions.

Instead? Keep my Job engaging/nuanced/complex and fun... not to increase the skill floor? but the available skill-ceiling to allow us to express our Jobs. Because while I might not like every piece of PvE combat content in XIV? I will have to do each PvE combat content? with a Job. Thus once they make my job uninteresting? bit by bit, piece by piece? the gameplay feels shallow... Which comes back to Yoshi P's statement a long time ago of -> Just go Play Ultimate <- which till this day I disagree with...

[LilimoLimomo]

Yoshi obviously said it in Japanese, so community paraphrased it in slightly more mean sounding way, but yes, in LL68, he basically said that first EW raid tier is easier than last tier of ShB, so if you want more challenging content as a healer, then you should try ultimate. That post has a timestamp for that, if you want to hear exact (translated) wording..

After watching the clip, I would categorize the entire exchange as an understandable miscommunication. Yoshi-P explains his perspective and the way they treat difficulty in X.0 patches because he genuinely thinks that's what the player isn't seeing. But as a player who feels the same about healing, I can tell that the short blurb he was provided about healing (which was then translated into another language) simply wasn't enough to adequately communicate the nuance of the issue to Yoshi-P. This is a very common kind of miscommunication, one that is generally alleviated by iterative, back-and-forth conversations. In this case, were that possible, I imagine that Yoshi-P would eventually have a better understanding of the issue this player was feeling and would be able to provide a more appropriate answer.

As for the "suggestion" of playing Ultimate, he laughed when he said that, which makes me interpret it as a tongue-in-cheek joke and not a genuine solution to the player's problem. Though it makes sense that players who were unsatisfied with his actual answer would be more likely to interpret that as being dismissive, rather than an attempt to add levity to the situation.

There should be enough info in my thread, it's long reading, but it should hopefully give you a decent picture of the situation.

From looking over Yoshi-P's response to the situation, it reads as pretty reasonable to me. It seems like his priorities are for jobs to be more accessible, and that this is at odds with what some high-end players want. It makes sense that there'd be tension and conflict there; what's positive for some players is negative for others. I can see in his response that he's torn about it, presumably because he knows he can't make everyone happy and yet has to make a decision one way or the other.

It also makes sense that the overwhelming majority of feedback on the forum would be negative, and I assume his analytics team is taking that into account; happy players are much less likely to take the time to post on forums. For a change to be rolled back, I imagine he would want to see a certain percentage of players — not a percentage of daily forum posters — posting in opposition. If that threshold isn't reached — because not enough players were so bothered by the change that it seemed worth spending 10 minutes to post about it — then as a producer it makes sense not to roll things back.

While I feel like Yoshi-P is being reasonable, I do hope that in future updates they can find a way to better serve both casual and high-end players.

[Maltothoris]

After watching the clip, I would categorize the entire exchange as an understandable miscommunication. Yoshi-P explains his perspective and the way they treat difficulty in X.0 patches because he genuinely thinks that's what the player isn't seeing. But as a player who feels the same about healing, I can tell that the short blurb he was provided about healing (which was then translated into another language) simply wasn't enough to adequately communicate the nuance of the issue to Yoshi-P. This is a very common kind of miscommunication, one that is generally alleviated by iterative, back-and-forth conversations. In this case, were that possible, I imagine that Yoshi-P would eventually have a better understanding of the issue this player was feeling and would be able to provide a more appropriate answer.

As for the "suggestion" of playing Ultimate, he laughed when he said that, which makes me interpret it as a tongue-in-cheek joke and not a genuine solution to the player's problem. Though it makes sense that players who were unsatisfied with his actual answer would be more likely to interpret that as being dismissive, rather than an attempt to add levity to the situation.

Maybe but then there's the english digest that was also released where they edited it make it more pr friendly.

A: We hold back on the difficulty of the initial Savage raids of each expansion to allow more people to clear, which goes for Asphodelos as well.

I imagine a lot of comparisons are being drawn between the current encounters and the Savage encounters added in Patch 5.4, but the difficulty will be gradually increased as players get more comfortable with their jobs again. But should you yearn for more, please look forward to Dragonsong’s Reprise (Ultimate)!

And then there have been his other attempts at healer discussion as well. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6118192 which was after 6.2 was dropped and there was a Q&A.

I just think that while a great guy, he has really bad takes on healers.

[Deo14]

After watching the clip, I would categorize the entire exchange as an understandable miscommunication. Yoshi-P explains his perspective and the way they treat difficulty in X.0 patches because he genuinely thinks that's what the player isn't seeing. But as a player who feels the same about healing, I can tell that the short blurb he was provided about healing (which was then translated into another language) simply wasn't enough to adequately communicate the nuance of the issue to Yoshi-P. This is a very common kind of miscommunication, one that is generally alleviated by iterative, back-and-forth conversations. In this case, were that possible, I imagine that Yoshi-P would eventually have a better understanding of the issue this player was feeling and would be able to provide a more appropriate answer.

As for the "suggestion" of playing Ultimate, he laughed when he said that, which makes me interpret it as a tongue-in-cheek joke and not a genuine solution to the player's problem. Though it makes sense that players who were unsatisfied with his actual answer would be more likely to interpret that as being dismissive, rather than an attempt to add levity to the situation.

Problem is that healers are incredibly dull since at least start of ShB. This comment was from 6.0 (LL68), now we're in 6.48 (LL78 was recently) and there is still not any indication that they're actually working on solving issues. Some savage fights do hit harder, but that doesn't really solve the 90%+ of CPM dedicated to Broil/Glare/Malefic/Dosis. But you might talk about healers with someone more qualified, even though I like playing healers in games, FFXIV ruined my interest in them.

From looking over Yoshi-P's response to the situation, it reads as pretty reasonable to me. It seems like his priorities are for jobs to be more accessible, and that this is at odds with what some high-end players want. It makes sense that there'd be tension and conflict there; what's positive for some players is negative for others. I can see in his response that he's torn about it, presumably because he knows he can't make everyone happy and yet has to make a decision one way or the other.

It also makes sense that the overwhelming majority of feedback on the forum would be negative, and I assume his analytics team is taking that into account; happy players are much less likely to take the time to post on forums. For a change to be rolled back, I imagine he would want to see a certain percentage of players — not a percentage of daily forum posters — posting in opposition. If that threshold isn't reached — because not enough players were so bothered by the change that it seemed worth spending 10 minutes to post about it — then as a producer it makes sense not to roll things back.

While I feel like Yoshi-P is being reasonable, I do hope that in future updates they can find a way to better serve both casual and high-end players.

If you mean 6.1 patch notes reading stream then:

... on Kaiten getting removed we did that because we want to do away having to be restricted by that move

What? How does that make sense? Is it hard to account for potential +50% potency for Iaijutsu? In the same patch, all big hits were made guaranteed crit anyways. What are the restrictions?

We really get that but in order for the expansion to continue and for each jobs to continue getting new actions

He even specified expansion, yet it's 6.48, and we still have no replacement. We spend 8+ CPM on Shinten, Kenki gauge was simply made for Kaiten+Shinten. Why was this in the middle of the expansion?

I'll repeat myself that we really did all these adjustments for the sake of player's enjoyment

Is spamming Shinten enjoyment? Is that how low the standards have fallen?

I'm sorry but the majority argument is terrible. People who wanted those changes are usually people who don't even play SAM, or people who parse and suck at it. I'm not sure how can they use metric for this, I hate the changes, yet I still play SAM. How would they know I'm against the changes if I don't voice my concerns? How would they know that people who don't voice their concerns agree with it? That's where feedback comes in. Yoshi said in the past that complaint is worth 2 compliments.

(Here's link to the whole panel's presentation slides)
In reality, it's generally 1:10 for most common businesses, someone few weeks ago even linked some research that it's more like 1:12. What kind of magnitude of feedback are they really expecting? SAMs definitely seem the loudest right now (when speaking about individual job feedback), but if this is not enough, then what? Do we need to manufacture drama, because that's only thing we know works? Don't we deserve at least a response?

[LilimoLimomo]

But you might talk about healers with someone more qualified, even though I like playing healers in games, FFXIV ruined my interest in them.

Yeah I honestly don't think there's anything to talk about regarding the status of healers, I feel like we're on the same page! I used to main WHM and now I don't even want to play it.

Is spamming Shinten enjoyment? Is that how low the standards have fallen?

Haha, I mean I can't answer that question, as I don't really enjoy Samurai myself. But from interacting with all manner of players, I'd be really surprised if some people didn't find that enjoyable. What's fun for one person isn't fun for another. Some people want more complexity for their rotation because they find it rewarding or exciting, some people want less complexity for their rotation because they find it pointless or overwhelming. Neither perspective is more right than the other, it's all just people. I've been on both sides of that at different times. Some people lament the loss of old SMN, and while I am compassionate for their loss, I love new SMN. Meanwhile, I lament the loss of the aerial Hraesvaelgr dungeon fight. You win some, you lose some.

What kind of magnitude of feedback are they really expecting? SAMs definitely seem the loudest right now (when speaking about individual job feedback), but if this is not enough, then what? Do we need to manufacture drama, because that's only thing we know works?

I think we're more on the same page on this than you think: we both agree that there's some magnitude of feedback that should be required for a change to happen. It sounds like you likely disagree with Yoshi-P on what that magnitude is, and that's a fair thing to disagree on; but what you both agree on is that that line is drawn somewhere. And I think that having a difference of opinion regarding where to draw that line is significantly different than not caring. As the saying goes, "never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity".

Out of curiosity, what magnitude are we talking about here? The thread you posted had 20 Likes, but I'm assuming that isn't the primary Kaiten thread. How many Likes did the primary thread have?

Don't we deserve at least a response?

With respect, I would say that none of us are ever owed a response from a game developer. It's nice when we do get one, and good PR for the company, but I don't think it's owed. In addition, it seems like Yoshi-P already did give a response: that they'd look at feedback and consider that going forward. The fact that they haven't rolled it back after so long seems like the period at the end of that sentence.