For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[ty_taurus]

You aren't interested in compromise. You just want me to stop representing a separate position and shut up. Inflexibility, thy name is Ty.

You can keep calling me inflexible if you wish, but the record shows otherwise.

You can keep being wrong about what "inflexible" means if you wish, but the records actually show that you are wrong.

I was fully on board with your suggestion to have White Mage's gameplay be inspired by Paladin--something that offers more like what I and others have asked for while still being straightforward and enjoyable for you. I don't know why you abandoned that train of thought. I think that's a perfectly valid compromise. It should be different than Paladin, but can feel inspiration from it and try to attain the same general level of offensive complexity or even a little less.

No. It would not be "far more easily" because, again, they'd have to rework all Classes to be viable OR have a wonky system of only one Class being viable in a system that otherwise has only Jobs and where Classes, for all practical applications, do not exist.

Listen to someone who actually works in the field. It is considerably less work and less time required to simplify and adjust 9 classes than it is to create an entire new job concept from scratch along with all the animations, weapons, visual effects, sound effects, story quests, etc. And you don't even need all 9 all at once. You could have one per role as "beginner" classes that are viable for savage even if not meta that way anyone who's trying to learn the game has something very easy to start with. And if you like the training wheels, you can keep them on if you so choose.

Remember? Where we had that big fallout because you were insisting it needed to be a Class and didn't read my posts? And you eventually admitted you didn't read my posts, but used the excuse of me insulting you as a reason for you not to apologize?

Is that like the other day when you asked if I'd play an official support role, and I kept giving you more and more detailed answers because you refused to read each answer over and over until I literally made you a flowchart, then you got pissy and told me you weren't speaking to me anymore because I wasn't answering you, even though you just were ignoring my answers time and time again. Like that?

[Renathras]

You can keep being wrong about what "inflexible" means if you wish, but the records actually show that you are wrong.

How?

As I've shown above, I've bent SEVEN TIMES from my initial position, each time giving ground. And the last bend was even giving up my "no change" position entirely.

How could I be more flexible than that?

Meanwhile, your position has consistently been change must occur. Never once have you wavered from that position, other than what I think was a sarcastic "White Mage Classic", and two times where you've said it's okay for CONJURUER, but only as a Class, not as a Job, to be a simple healer. That's like saying "How about we make Conjurer the complex healer and have the rest all be simple?", you just don't want to see it.

How is it flexible to go from "Jobs must be more complex and they must all change" to "Jobs must be more complex and they must all change"?

Your willingness to be interested - though I don't recall you fully supporting it - making WHM more complex (on the order of PLD, but that's still more complex) and changing it as opposed to leaving it alone is flexibility?

And what part of me changing my position seven (eight? I'd forgotten about the WHM proposal) times me being inflexible?

Especially when you say you supported one of the changes?

You need to stop with these petty insults. Especially when they're lies and you're describing what you do as an insult against me. I've shown far more change and flexibility on this issue than you have. I don't know how going from "change none of the healers" to "change all of the healers just leave one SOMEWHAT alone" is inflexible on my part.

Listen to someone who actually works in the field.

Appeal to authority fallacy? I also did ask you once before what game(s) you work on. You didn't answer, so I have no actual evidence you do work in the field, btw.

It is considerably less work and less time required to simplify and adjust 9 classes than it is to create an entire new job concept from scratch along with all the animations, weapons, visual effects, sound effects, story quests, etc.

Okay...first, disagree. You'd have to to make 9 sets of ability adjustments and tuning, as well as balance them going forward against all the Jobs in the game. We'd go from 19 Jobs to 29 Jobs overnight. They'd also need new animations, since they'd progress together up to a point and then diverge. For example, when WHM goes from Stone IV to Glare to Glare 2, CNJ would go from Stone IV to Stone V to Stone VI. Those are still new animations. You may or may not need new weapons, but you would need new visual effects and sound effects. The only thing you wouldn't need is a new story quest, but the new story quests (did SGE and did GNB back in ShB) weren't exactly a ton of work. A few dozen dialogue boxes, a couple of NPCs, a couple of "purple circle spawns 3 enemies", and a pair of instanced solo encounters that entirely use existing assets, like the RPR entry one that uses one room of Cutter's Cry and existing enemy assets there are probably less work than not only adjusting abilities for 9 Classes but then trying to balance 29 Class/Jobs from now on.

On the other hand, say we added Druid. It has all the same weapons as WHM. It uses the same gear as WHM/SCH/AST/SGE. You're adding one new artifact armor and Relic weapon per expansion, and you were going to do this anyway (suppose Druid was one of the two new Jobs in DT, for example). Come to it, you were going to add that new Job (Corsair and ?Green Mage?) to the game, so you allocated the assets to new story. In fact, adding Druid as a split from CNJ would be LESS work than adding a new Job like SGE, since you don't need as many new animations with it sharing gear with WHM up until level 90 probably (might get different main hands from then on); even if it was an entirely new Job that didn't split from CNJ, it's no more difficult than adding a new Job, so if we get 2 of those per expansion no matter what, making Druid one of those doesn't change anything.

As for assets: They're all in the game. Aero 1/2/3? In the game files. Stone 1/2/3/4? In the game files. Water? Fluid Aura is in the game files and many enemies like Mind Flayers cast the Water spell, meaning it's in the game files. Literally the only new things are things you're adding anyway with the new expansion's allotted 2 Jobs. So say in 8.0 they added Druid as a new healer, this would be literally no additional overhead. Meanwhile, converting all the Classes into full on Jobs, balanced against Jobs, that can participate in all content and must be balanced against Jobs in all content would be far more difficult...

...all to maintain your seeming desire that the "baby" Jobs not be allowed to be called Jobs.

Maybe you work in the field, but that seems nonsensical.

And if you're doing only one per role, that makes EVEN LESS sense - again, it makes the design convoluted to new players. "Why can I do high end content on GLD, CNJ, and ACN but not MRD or LNC or THM?"

There's zero logic to doing this as opposed to just adding a new Job.

Good gosh, SOMEONE else has to see this? For the love of Newton, back me up, totally-not-an-echo-chamber forum. >_<

[ty_taurus]

How?

Because none of your stances are actually compromising the concern in question. They're all about anchoring at least one job to remain unchanged for the rest of eternity, never allowed to change because you like it the way it is. You aren't actually budging on your stance, and you act as though it is by your mercy that we are allowed to want to rework the other jobs as long as we pinky promise we won't want to change White Mage too, or whatever job you're offering as the sacrificial lamb that particular day.

The stance of "This system does not work, and it should change to anything that isn't this" has infinite possibilities that I am 100% open to discuss. That's the opposite of Inflexible. As I said several times now, I liked your suggestion of having White Mage's offensive gameplay inspired by Paladin--a suggestion that you seem to continue to ignore for some reason. Is it because I agree with you about that? "Oh shit, he actually likes that idea. Time to backpedal!" If I didn't agree with you, would you have listed that as another example of your gracious compromises as well? Why are you pretending like that wasn't a conversation? Do you just want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing?

It's like with the support role teeth-pulling session where you shut down and completely ignore anything referencing it because you didn't like the answers I gave you about my opinion over and over, which is even weirder quite frankly. My answer wasn't a "gotcha!" moment for you so you've abandoned ship? I don't understand your modus operandi.

Appeal to authority fallacy?

I'd rather not post my job location on a public forum, so fair enough it's not fair for me to pull that card. I shouldn't do that, but I'm just annoyed because I know what I'm talking about. I've literally done it and I just don't think you understand that there's no functional difference between classes or jobs. And no I really don't care if it's called a class or a job, I'm just saying you can repurpose the asset that's already in the game as a roundabout way of securing the baby's first MMORPG playstyle without condemning any singular job to that playstyle perpetually. I'll also tolerate adding in DPS actions to every healer, and then allowing the player to manually disable them, which inversely increases the potency of your filler spell by a small amount for each one you disable. You could even disable Dia if you wanted. You only require Glare, Holy, and Afflatus Misery. If that's the bargaining chip I need to see each healer fixed and not anchored down to a Little Tike's Tricycle, then I'm all for it. But none of that should be needed.

As has been said probably hundreds of times across multiple people at this point, ensuring each healer doesn't spam any one spell more than 30%-ish of their gameplay does not instantly make them all big brain Ninja rotation high APM expert jobs that shit on any new or casual healer. What has been suggested for White Mage by a number of people is still extremely beginner friendly.

The only thing that's lost and what seems to be the only thing you care about is the ability to parse purple or higher without any effort whatsoever. Apparently we're not allowed to have every healer be rewarding because then even when you clear content, you'll be upset because you because you'd have to work harder to be better than everyone else at that clear.