For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[Renathras]

WARNING: Long thread because of quotes. See: TL;DR if you want and then can skim back up through the comments to see if you agree or not.

...

Actually made a thread (more general) to see kind of what people on the main sub think of the roles in a general sense: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...which_is_your/

Likes aren't what I'm looking for here, it's comments people actually wrote out. Something you'll find if you read the healer specific ones are...varied.

"I've always loved healing, no matter what game, I always try healer first and generally stick to it. I always hate worrying about if my dps is high enough, or if I'm doing the right rotation."
Perhaps it's my interpretation, but this SOUNDS like a person saying they don't like involved DPS rotations as they worry about not doing them right, but they enjoy healing instead.

"...and I just don't care about big numbers or DPS contests for there to be a draw there"
This was a person saying they like healer and find tank too stressful and aren't drawn to DPS. I don't think it's a bridge too far to assume they like healers not having involved damage rotations.

Next healer didn't really comment on the playstyle, just that they like being able to hard carry teams in DF. Certainly doesn't seem like someone who dislikes current healer design, at least not in the content they run.

"Healing. In high-end pugging it’s about reading the other healer (and everyone else) and figuring out how to order your ogcds correctly to prevent overheating. In normals it gets exciting if people start dying."
This one is the first one I think somewhat matches what you guys are saying...but not QUITE. This person didn't say they dislike healing at present, they say they like it in high end pugging and making an oGCD plan, and they find normal exciting when people are messing up. While they don't say they want more damage abilities or are bored, I think it's reasonable that they get bored in normals if people aren't dying (per their last comment), though that's inference on my part.

"healer for me, it just clicks"
Doesn't really comment either way, but this person doesn't SOUND like they dislike current healing.

"I like healing and hate it all at the same time. Astro is my go to healer it’s busy and I enjoy that as the other healers feel boring to me"
This is the first comment that's more or less in agreement with here unambiguously. Though they don't say they want more damage abilities per se, they also say the other healers are boring except for AST, which they find busy enough to enjoy. Their words "I enjoy that". Not asking for more damage buttons either, but some of you have suggested AST get more buff stuff to juggle instead, and agrees with you guys that the other three are boring. So this is the first comment that unambiguously agrees with this forum here.

The next comment is from a person who identified themselves as a DPSer: "Healing's alright, the fast queues are fantastic but lack of DPS rotation gets boring after awhile. My 2 key is gonna wear out on my MMO mouse at this rate."
This comment SORTA agrees with you guys here, if we ignore the first two words of "Healing's alright". But it agrees with you guys on the lack of DPS rotation getting boring after awhile. But it's also not from a healer main. (Not making any "real healer" comment here, I'm just pointing out it isn't from a person who identifies as a healer but I felt it was worth adding since it DOES unabiguously agree with here as well, so we can keep the tally fair.)

"Magic DPS, followed by Healers
I just wanna be a Wizard :V"
Here for completion, but I don't think we can really glean anything from it other than this person doesn't seem to dislike current healers. But also "I just wanna be a Wizard" isn't really something we can work with. XD

"Healing as Astro is a close second though because I like managing the cards, occasionally saving the day, and their LB3 is fañcy"
Another DPS main, but seems to really like AST. Not seeing anything about it being boring or bland or not having enough damage buttons.

"I main Black Mage, but my favorite role is actually healer. I enjoy playing all the healers. I think it's the most engaging role to play in duty finder. Saving a party from what seemed like a certain wipe feels very good.
What I'd like changed is an increased emphasis on healing. Most of your actions as a healer are not healing, they're your one DPS button."
This is more or less the exact opposite view of this forum and reflects what I've asked for a lot of times - more emphasis on healing, less on damage dealing. This person might even be the kind who would like that "GCD heals nourish the Blood Lily" idea.

"If I Tank, I get a shitty healer who's spamming LV1 base spells in LV90 Roulette at 90% HP. If Idecide to play Healer, I'm getting a Tank who doesn't know what Migitations are.
Despite all that, I enjoy Tanking/Healing the most, Melee DPS is the worst for me."
Here for completeness, but again doesn't really help us.

"Healers, i love fast paced raiding stuff and a good healer always gives you the comfort to pull or dps mindlessly without worrying about dying."
Not super helpful either...but this person seems not to dislike healers, either.

"Healer. I would say it is the only job that does something beyond either standing still or doing the exactly one good rotation all DPS classes are cursed with… but that is a lie, the dev team had to add boring and predictable fight-starting room-wides to even force out some healing.
Still, it has its moments, usually in alliance raids where tons of players ---- up and you have to salvage the entire situation. Sometimes it happens in 8-player and 4-player content as well.
But, overall, mostly because it is the least tunnel-visioned jobs, more so than tank. It is also the role where people learn to move the party list to a spot they actually see instead of chugging it in the corner somewhere. Suddenly, you have to care about all the faceless bozos running around you."
Person seems not to like DPS rotations, and is complaining about fight design not healer design. This person doesn't seem to dislike current healer design nor to be asking for more DPS buttons.

"I prefer tanking.
Healing causes me severe stress. I've literally found my hands trembling after a difficult encounter. I only heal during really easy encounters as a result."
Again added for completion, but not really something we can work with other than this person dislikes healing hard content. Though they certainly DON'T seem to be saying healing is boring/braindead/easy/needs more to do to keep awake like this forum does.

"It used to be healer but due to shinanigans in my static I volunteered to go DPS this expansion and my stress has gone way down and I'm enjoying raids again.
I think I was burnt out on healing and didn't realize it. I play SMN now and like to use my utility abilities but I can never tell if I'm being helpful which now bothers me lol."
For completeness, but again doesn't really help us other than they found healing stressful (so probably not braindead) and we don't know the nature of the mentioned "shinanigans", so we can't really do anything with this one other than that this person probably doesn't think healers are braindead.

DPS main again "I prefer dps because interesting rotation + not any real responsibility in casual content, but i also love playing healer for fast queues and alliance raids can be a lot of fun when everyone is dead as a healer lol
and white mage is my go-to brain dead glare-bot instant queue job"
...but this one doesn't seem to hate healers, and seems to like WHM specifically when they do casual content. Does think it's brain dead, but seems to see that as a positive.

"Healer. Because everyone's at my mercy."
The post goes on in that vein, so isn't super helpful to us, but again, a person that doesn't seem to hate current healer design.

"healer is by far my favorite. some people think having 3 dps buttons are "boring" but i like not having combos to deal with to do my job correctly. and the constant "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING" to the dps is always a fun time. my least favorite is tank. i don't like any of them because of super strict rotations."
Do I...need to mention that this person agrees with me? This is the kind of person I mean when I say WHM should stay the same for people who like current healer designs and you guys here are like "People? Who? You just mean you, right?" As I always say, "No, it's not just me". Here's an example of a person who isn't me saying the same thing.

"Healer
1. Watching bars fill up is more satisfying to me than watching bars empty.
2. Many-Buttons difficulty is not enjoyable to me, nor is Scheduling-Every-Click-a-year-in-advance
3. I don't have a competitive bone in my body.
4. I enjoy being the guy who has an eye on everything.
What would I like changed? In an ideal world, more healing, less DPSing. But that's not what the game is or ever will be, so I'm good as is."
Do I need to point out this one agrees with me? Even more than that, this person is literally asking for less DPSing, not more. "Many-Buttions difficulty is not enjoyable to me, nor is Scheduling-Every-Click-a-year-in-advance". Does that sound more like you guys and the prevailing opinion on this forum, or more like mine? Pretty sure we can chalk this one up into also being at odds with the forum here.

"Usually healer. I enjoy all three equally, but a bad healer is hard to carry for. If a tank or the dps are bad the game just becomes slower and not impossible (usually). A bad healer is hard to overcome and usually leads to duty failure. If I heal I can at least ensure the healer is good (or in the case of an 8 or 24 man Duty, at least half the healers are good)."
Doesn't really say either way, but here for completeness. Again, doesn't seem to hate current healer implementation.

"I prefer support type classes in all games so I tend to gravitate to healer roles the most. My second would be class cannon mage types.
I enjoy being able to analyze a fight/encounter with a little less stress on my own “rotations”. I personally don’t find myself in a panic when keeping others alive but it’s probably because I tend to heal primarily in every game. This also allows me to make calls during a fight or encounter to pull some stress off other jobs who can focus more attention to their performance. Also as a healer you can carry a less experienced team through trouble FAR more than if you were another role.
Currently in FFXIV I would like healers to actually need to do more healing outside of first time runs/brand new content. Currently most content boils down to 2 DPS buttons and the occasional OGCD press. I wish healing was more about weaving DPS into your healing vs weaving a heal into your DPS button spam.
Edit: I also enjoy situations where you can hardcore pocket heal a player allowing them to really pump those DPS numbers."
Again, this person seems to agree with me. Don't like stressing about their own rotation, enjoys supporting others, even outright claims to enjoy what Semi always calls "being a heal bitch" and that she hates. Also another vote for more healing, and weaving damage into their healing rotation instead of weaving heals between damage. Which means this person sounds like they'd also like the WHM GCD heals generate Misery, as that would be a model that encourages weaving occasional damage (Misery) in between their healing.

"Healer.
If you disrespect me, you die. Your life is in my hands. RESPEEKT MY AUTHORITALL"
Yeah...not really useful again.

"Green DPS (ie Healer).
I love being able to keep everybody alive while simultaneously keeping up with the actual DPS."
While saying "Green DPS", sounds like this person actually enjoys it.

"My favourite role is DPS, because it's the only role in this game. In other games I'd play a healer, but that role doesn't exist in this game. We only have DPS, DPS with a bit of healing, and DPS with a 1 button rotation."
Here's a post that agrees unambiguously with this forum! It's...also not being upvoted. So take that for what you will.

"love hate relationship with healer. fun to prog and do whacky pugs on, boring as shit in ordinary reclears"
Second to bottom comment as of right now, last comment on healers (the very last comment below it is about DPS), and...agrees with this forum. Like this is straight up what the majority here believes, that healers can be fun in prog but are boring as <poopie> in reclears.

.

TL;DR:

I'm not posting all these to start a tally/contest of which is more popular. This is WAY too few answers/responses to cite as somehow representative of the whole community of the playerbase or anything like that, and wasn't a poll, just a general question about how people like the roles and which.

But what I would like to draw your attention to is that there are other people there (unlike here) that agree with me, and that the position here that is so prominent is actually the minority position there. It IS just one thread, so I'm not saying that's true of the whole forum, but what I'm specifically trying to draw your attention to is that my view is not unique to me, there are others that hold it. And that unlike here, on Reddit, they're given equal say. Notice none of the posts there have been downvoted to the point of being hidden (one was deleted but I think it was someone accusing someone else of using a DPS meter). They all seem to be voicing their positions and are being tolerated, not briggaded or dogpiled.

But, the position prevalent here is still present there. It's not disallowed, it's not being downvoted, it's not being mocked. That isn't a reverse mirror of this echo chamber that's just swinging too far to the other side. It allows both to coexist, and they both seem to be represented by multiple people on all sides...unlike here.

And look at all those different opinions!

There are people that seem to love current healers, to like them, and to dislike them. There are people that find them boring and people that find them TOO stressful/exciting and those that find them comfy. There are those who like the current Jobs as they are, those that want more damage and find them boring, those that want more healing, those that want less damage, and those that don't like any but AST. Your views and my views, views in between, and views even more on the "healers should heal" than my own are all represented there in JUST that one thread.

Contrast here.

If you can't see the contrast...I'd ask you to try looking again.

[Deo14]

Snip

I'm not really sure what's the point of all this. I think everyone understands that community is made out of millions of individuals with different opinions, and that even most controversial opinions will have thousands of supporters, you pulling anecdotes from casual subreddit which is more skewed towards healer mains doesn't really amount to anything.

You're more inclined to be on the more serious side of community if you visit this forum, and because of that, people here will see behind the shallow role that are healers. You can look at the comments in your mainsub's thread and most of them are "I like healers because they're shiny" or "because I can save my party in normal content". But other people have better insight, and don't judge surface level only, just like here.

So obviously, healers are split into casuals which mostly reside in mainsub, and more hardcore people who reside in here or places like r/ffxivdiscussion. Both views are valid, however, we have 4 healers, and all 4 of them are made to suit the casuals. Why can't we have current WHM and current SGE, and then more interesting AST and SCH?

[ForsakenRoe]

And in another thread of 'what do you want to see your main get in 7.0', I can sift through and see healer related things like:

SCH more uses for Fairy Gauge
WHM Seraph Strike from PVP
SCH 'energy drain more visual flair/stronger'
AOE version of ED for AOE pulls
Ruin 2 upgrading to something unique when reaching Broil levels
Meltdown for SCH
OGCD to replace Undraw that throws card at enemy for scratch damage (to show they'd rather just do token damage than buff an ally, apparently, i don't get it either)
Different functioning gapclosers on healers (WHM Seraph, SCH has Expedience, AST getting Urianger's Bridge-Skip tech)
Return Bane on SCH
More Kardia-interplay for SGE, such as AOE, boosting shields for Kardia target etc
AOE rescue???
ST Addersting dump skill
SGE 'another attack would not go amiss'
AST 'i want the rework to go all the way to it's core', sounds like they want old cards and Royal Road back
'Healers to have combo actions' (quote: 'Frankly being a glare bot is… exhausting. Holy spam in dungeons is also exhausting. It’s exhausting in the sense that it’s so damn boring.')

Someone says 'I miss when scholar had 2 dots and an aoe spread so much.', a familiar looking name then responds with 'I miss when SCH had 6 DOTS and cleric stance' (yeh me too)

'I think their healing kits are in a good place right now so it'd be more fun (personally) to see them get new skills that focus on damage.'
'Give me Seraph Strike from Bozja.'
'A teleport for Astro. Like a blink'
'For Scholar...I'm honestly content with Scholar's kit rn, no clue what they could add' (yeh neither do the devs, which is why I think it's at the point where it needs to be DRG'd)
'I'd like it if SCH got an improved version of energy drain.' (paraphrasing the context, they don't want it to do more damage, but to have additional effects like more HP restore, AOE damage, increase Bio duration, etc)
'Give me Sleeve Draw back on AST. But in all seriousness I would like a teleport ability called Astroglide where the AST slides along a trail of stars to a designated location.' (the name is sus but the concept is ok)
'GIMME MY OLD SELENE SKILLS BACK!'
'WHM: more oGCDs', and to follow on, 'I just want Regen to be oGCD' (Regen OGCD would need to be nerfed in potency or have at least a 90s CD but it could be interesting)
'AST: Two charges for Astrodyne and Exaltation' (not sure how 2 Astrodynes would work when you need seals to use em, but sure)

A comment chain between A and B:
A:
Healers: A 1-2-3 attack combo, a gauge build attack spell, and an oGCD attack.
Make healer more interesting to play for crying out loud. When people have a vague idea of what's happening in a fight, I barely need to heal anybody already. I actually enjoy it when shit hits the fan, cause at least the fight becomes a bit more interesting.

Immediately after, B:
SCH main here. No. I specifically play healer because I don't want to dedicate any mental real estate to pressing buttons.
If you want a real rotation go play a DPS.

A:
I don't want "a real rotation", I just want more than two buttons to press during a 10 minute fight.

B:
Play SMN then. It's almost as braindead as healer DPS.

(i think B missed the point of what A was asking for)

Someone else responded to A with 'I'd say removal of all DPS skills and make healing actually necessary.', said response is at -10 and therefore I had to click the + to show hidden comment
Multiple people respond to 'C' with some variation of 'that sounds boring as hell', C responds with 'it'd be boring if healing stays as it is now, make healing required more randomized and reactive' or some variation thereof
'Worst idea in the thread so far. How are you gonna do solo content, heal stuff to death?' (lol)

'Scholar: a change to emergency tactics and a new ogcd shield heal' (they don't like how SCH is 'barrier healer' but can only apply OGCD barrier with one skill (Consolation)(same))

'Please take half my skills and combine them or get rid of them, thanks. - Tank mains', with someone responding 'same, as a WHM'

'Healers: Something to break up how boring it is to heal now.'

A WHM says (paraphrased), 'stop floating for every spell cast it looks silly, also bring back elemental themes, also I don't really need new abilities, just trait upgrade current ones'
A SGE asking for the pseudo-Rescue and square shield that are in the role quests
Because arenas are big, 'I’d love to see WHM or all healers get like a remote heal like Lily Bell where you can place an epicenter for heals to help heal everyone in range without a majorly long cooldown.'

'AST: Gravity applies Heavy.' (I'd rather it applied Slow, so it affects attackspeed not movespeed, and cos SCH's Miasma had Heavy (which ideally comes back) but sure)
'WHM needs a second charge of Assize two expansions ago.' (true and real)
'I just want the ability to shield back on AST :’c (to which they were told 'neutral sect is right there', rather dismissive of the point they were trying to make but reddit sure loves to 'well ackshually' every tiny detail they can)
'WHM: Seraph Strike'
'Bring back the 4.0 AST cards.'
'Sects and Royal road for AST'
'AST's only mobility tool (Lightspeed) is currently dedicated to burst windows/card shuffling and I'd like that changed in some way that doesn't involve SMN level simplification of the job'
'Aoe Dia'
'I would love to have some sort of debuff for Astro!' (no mention of what kind of debuff)
'Would really like another AOE ability that follows up with Holy. I know Holy is very powerful, but just spamming a single button for an mob pull, with an occasional Assize, is a tad boring.' (haters will say 'you have Misery' and miss the point)
'For SCH I’d like them to replace ruin 2 with a better spell or just upgrade its animation, maybe make it like a fairy blast or just a low tier broil' (Meltdown?)
'I was literally just thinking how much I’d like a gap closer on WHM like Seraph Strike'
'I want AST to have a cooldown damage spell to give some sort of rotation, and either it's a black hole, or something suitably flashy and spacey.'
'I saw the headline and came here to immediately say gap closer for WHM. Saw what OP wrote and just nodded.' (OP asked for a gap closer for WHM, 'similar to Icarus')

'SGE Main - I think we're in a pretty good spot. But some niceties might include:

A good "Oh Sh!t" single target heal. Not as good as Bene, obviously, but something similar to an auto-crit Excog.
Temporary full party Kardia.
Ticks from E. Dosis trigger Kardia heals. Lower potency than direct damage triggers, of course.'

'All Healers: Another DPS button. Maybe some kind attack that procs off of your nuke or dot? Anything that would make the "rotation" more interesting.'
'Would it really be so terribly OP if SCH and SGE could auto-crit with their GCD heals outside of combat?' (QOL for prepull Adlo-spread, I assume)
'as a whm, yeah, id love a gap closer'
'As a WHM, I'd prefer sage's gap closer gets shoved into a role action instead of being specifically being added to us and not also scholar / astro.'
'I want them to do a review of SCH. I think the theme and fantasy of the job is good. I like fae stuff and I like the battle tactician aspect. It just feels a bit disjointed in application.' (and then a few examples like 'make gauge have more than one use')

'SGE: This is a hard one... SGE's kit is already pretty perfectly balanced around what we have... but, I wouldn't say no to more Addersting spenders or more uses for Eukrasia.'
'Not sure. Currently SCH already feels quite busy and clicky as it is and flows well. Plus, my hotbar is already really full. I think I'd rather see upgrades to existing skills over more buttons.'
'Sch, as specifically an upgrade to dissipation, the fairy jumps on your shoulder (or head if lala) and doubles up on any aetherflow action including energy drain for a short period of time' (reminds me of that 'Assimilation' idea)
'More single-target damage options for SGE. Like single-target versions of toxicon and phlegma. Also more eukrasia combos.'
Familiar name says: 'DoT’s return on scholar. Sage to have more damage buttons. Aero 3 and seraph strike on WHM. Stormblood style cards back on AST.'
'SGE (most healers tbh) could use like.. minimum of 3 more damage abilities, 1 or more movement abilities, and about.. 3 of their healing skills consolidated.'
'I want them to give Scholar haste that is single target so I can give someone mad dps power for pushes'
'As a SCH I feel like my job is pretty complete right now. I would be OK with getting anything. If I had to choose, I guess I would want more fairy abilities that are on the oGCD.'
'WHM: Uber blood Lily? I don’t know, I just want the bloody lily to feed a damage gain.' (not sure I agree on that one chief)
'SCH: Summon Seraph gets upgraded to Titania, for we are her lovely branch.' (ok this one's based, but they are the branch and we are the sapling)
'Fix SCH'

'I'd like useless 1-2-3 with no skill attached to pressing them to become a single button like PVP
It'd be cool for example, give a button that instead of upgrade Glare3 to "Glare IV" for WHM, actually do a combo like Stone > Gust > Glare (all elements whm used/use, which doesn't break combo if you stop to cast any heal), and let's say, completing 3rd would give you a buff that next heal is boosted by 5% or some really neat things. At least glaremage would still be glaremage, but see 3 different cool casts.'

paraphrased, someone asks for 'can we have instant 3 lilies on WHM like SGE gets, so we can actually use heals in the first minute of the fight' (probably would just lead to instant Misery but oh well let em)

'WHM: Litterally just give PVP Seraph Strike. Thats all I want. Its a gap closer, it does damage, and for the memes we can give it freecure as well. It isn’t like Freecure is a useful proc after level 50 anyway.'
'I want SCH to have more healing over time. I don’t want to even LOOK at my main healing options if I’m in a normal dungeon, just leg me do more damage'
'Maybe a mini-kardia on a second target'
'As Sage player: a reason to ever press toxicon. Its a dps down in both single target and AoE situations. a second addersting spender, maybe Lype as AoE dot.'
'Current SCH main. I'm happy with the place it's in. Maybe a charge counter for recitation.'
'They need to take a que from card games and turn AST cards into a deck.' (and then an explanation of what they mean by that, basically 'new cards bad rework pls')
'Besides, WHM has a gap closer. It's Rescue. When the entire party is doing their job, but one jackarse is out there doing their own thing, that DPS can adjust and get yoinked to the party.' (based)
'The ability for more damage to trigger kardia, like dots, just with a weaker potency.'
'One more button of DPS for WHM pls'

'All healers need dashes! I want an ultra sparkly one for AST. Also I'd like something like phlegma, AST damage is a bit.. lackluster. Even if you consider the damage you give to others through cards.
This or give me back sect swapping'

'I agree with you (not sure who) on WHM. Please just buff WHM in general'
'As a SGE main, more Icarus.' (ok one of your 92-100 traits is now burned on 'Icarus now has 3 charges', monkey's paw curls)

'More lasers on Sage. Actually give me a lightsabre for a melee attack. Please. Please give me a lightsabre SE. I dont want much, just a lightsabre. In all seriousness, maybe a crit guarantee like SCH but a little weaker, actually change Zoe to buff it to be like Reci, it'll be weaker because we dont have DT, but it'll still be pretty strong.' (idk about that Zoe change, but lightsaber melee attack sounds like something I read suggested before)

'For WHM I would like OCD Alliance wide AoE rezz with 100% heal on top of it. Miracle would be a fitting name.' (pov: you got Puppet's Bunker and people decided to play PVP)
'I don't main WHM, but I still feel like I'd like to trade Glare and Dia for Quake and Tornado.' (medium based)
'Auto-Life for Healers (basically let’s whoever is under this survive one mortal blow.)' (hilariously broken potential)
another 'more glam options for fairy as SCH, including favorite lovely branch' suggestion
'As AST I want to see LESS abilities, please take away that horrible haste buff that forces our lightspeed into 2m'
'Not my main but i rlly want faerie butterfly wings for sch or just something faerie related tbh'
'SGE: 2 minute buffed Eurkrasia that you can use on Pneuma or Phlegma. Eukrasian Pneuma could be erect a larger shield (like spreadlo) and Eukrasian Phlegma could be a melee combo like Ifrit on SMN'
'Extra Icarus dash/more safe mobility in general would be awesome but probably super overpowered'
'Animation updates for cure 1, diagnosis, physick etc. No actual buff, just make them look awesome.' (lol)
'yes give WHM a gap closer'
'Bring back Aero III and Disable ������������������'
'I stay awake every night praying for a WAR button that removes healers from the game entirely and gives us another dozen or so fell cleave casts' (lol, the way we're going this one will happen with 9.0)
'Sage-more reliable way to generate the dmg charges, allow me to break self shields or dismiss dot to generate a charge'
'AST - more charges on everything, plus a second charge on Earthly Star'
'Astro gap closer and bring back sleeve draw'
'A direct heal 'Oh Shit' button for Sage... Barriers are nice, but they are no benediction. Even something that just gives pure massive shield to a single target would be nice.'
'I think all healer jobs deserve gap closers personally.'
'Not my main but more dots for SCH'
'As a SCH player, really just an instant shield (a la Divine Benison) and an actual point to the Fairie Gauge'
'Bring back Shadowflare or riot'
'RERAISE! RERAISE! RERAISE!'
'Ast: Perhaps a tool that lets you instacast spells, so you actually have some mobility again. (*weeps in Lightspeed being hard required for 2 min windows*)'
'Honestly, I feel a gap-closer should be standard, if not for every class, at least for healers'
'100%, as a sage main I want to see all the other healers get a gap closer so I can actually go back to playing other healers again for the first time in two years'

As a healer and crafting main I want three things: 1.) A proper damage rotation because healing is so little of what I am actually pressing that I go numb when I heal a semi-competent party. 2.) Old Astro back. I want individual card effects and Royal Road back. I would happily go back to maining Astro over Sage if they gave me this. I will give anything for this. 3.) Crafting to actually be more difficult again. (triple-based)

'Make Scholars energy drain the equivalent to Phlegma'
'Egi glamour moonstone carbuncle/Egi glamour obsidian carbuncle'
'Sch: the ability to swap spots with eos.'
'I want Sage to get an even bigger laser. I don't care what the skill does, I just want a big f*** off laser even bigger than Pneuma. Preferably multiple lasers.'

'In general I'd like healers to have a somewhat more involved DPS kit that connects to their healing as well.
Like for Scholar, give us the second DoT back. Give us a new job gauge doohickey that's accumulated by DPSing. On every Broil cast, some amount of gauge is generated, the amount it generates scaling based on if you have 0/1/2 of your DoTs active on the target. At some amount of gauge buildup, you can spend it to do an oGCD Succor-equivalent. Despite being a shield healer, its only oGCD shielding is from Seraph. I don't think it needs a bunch of more oGCD shields, that can be Sage's thing, but I think just one more would be a welcome addition. Also an ability to swap position with your fairy would be neat.'

'pot of greed'

my WHM suggestion (yes I posted too)

'A water spell for white mage/conjurer. Either a shield/counter or an aoe dot preferable but I'd take anything really. Why is water the only element we can't use as a white mage (which has lore and quests revolving around the element)?'
'Sage wise having a cd that gives back more then 1 gall.'
'GNB/SCH/SMN: I literally don't want anything. SCH might be leaning on too bloated as it is. I want them to leave all three as close as they can to what they are now.'
'Im honestly very satisfied with sages kit. I just hope they dont take things away lol.'

'AST: I want the card system changed. I like the idea of the AST buffing party members with the cards, but the system doesn't feel rewarding when done right, but punishing when done wrong. It should feel like the opposite.
SCH: I want a big heal cd. Like our big heal cd is pooling our instant aoe heals and spamming them then. But I want a big healing button'

'hear me out, right... glare 4.' (whoa he's cookin')
'Ability to stay the same for two exansions in a row... I'm an Astrologian...'

'AST: Draw and Play are now GCDs but both do same damage as Malefic so that it is dps neutral.
Draw while out of combat is only 15 CD instead of usual 30 so AST teams don't have to count down to 30 second. T_T
Maybe an extra ogcd heal for lvl 100 skill'

'Sage: Kardia for party, party gets the benefit of Kardia for a set time.'
'Shaking OP's hand, Whm gap closer pls'
'I'd like all healers to have gap closers, and Summoners should get more egis.'
'Idea for AST: a trait that allows Celestial Opposition to trigger Horoscope Helios.'
'AST - make dealing with cards more meaningful or interesting, not just % damage increase.'
'Offensive uses for the Scholar Fairy Gauge.'

'I’d really like a WHM rework. I’m not sure what the goal of the class is right now. It feels like it’s just “healer with less mechanics” which isn’t a job identity it’s just a half empty kit. Maybe give WHM some GCD abilities with cool-downs? It doesn’t need to be a busy job, BLM has the lowest APM of any job in the game but has a distinct, unique play style.' (based and afflatus-pilled)

'As an ASTRO, I would love to finally utilize my cards in a more complex way!!Different effects for each card please!!'

'I want more multi target damage skills for my WHM. I want my damn aero III back or something like it. That and/or something like a long cooldown short window self raise where it will auto raise me on death as another mistake coverage option.'

'WHM: Afflatus Ubiquity. Gap closer/teleport but very elegant not a long slip. The character flashes in a few petals of yellow light and a soft fast serpentine follows the direction they went.
Quickly teleport to the target or selected area. Additional effect: Nourish the Blood Lily. Healing gauge cost: 1 Lily. Unable to cast if bound.' (a lily spender mobility tool, not seen that one before. I like the word Ubiquity though)

'As a healer. One of two things: Either reduce the self healing on tanks so we have a reason to be actively healing, or commit to the "everyone is a dps" and give a few more damage abilities.
Just anything. Even more buffs. Something like ast cards but more active. Every fight is just standing there casting the same single target spell over and over. I actually prefer dungeons with inexperienced tanks at this point because it makes me feel like a actual healer rather then the most boring dps who hits a aoe heal when the boss says to.' (i know the feeling)

'Every Job should get an" ultimate" skill that fits the class fantasy. Cause we reaching lvl 100. Also Healer got enough Healing. Give them fun Utility spells or even better more dps options'
'I really want more tools for play for more jobs. Something similar to the performance feature from Bard. Like some kind of card game from an AST, maybe similar to the shell game?' (tarot reading side-minigame thing ala perform could be cool)
'Sage using their medical knowledge to induce some sort of frailty in their foes sounds like a very cool, very fun thing to add to the job'
'I want WHM to get an upgrade to assize.'

'For WHM I want:
A "Salt and Darkness" like ability for Asylum.' (I'd take a Hollow Nozuchi style one that triggers when we Medica, Cure3 or Rapture)
'An ability to make the next Solace will also apply the Regen spell and/or the next Rapture will apply the Medica II regen
Some sort of mitigation ability now that Collective Unconscious can easily hit everyone' (cough Protect)
'Not a new ability but make Thin Air only work on the next healing or Raise so it can be used like Zoe' (I guess they're annoyed when they accidentally spend their TA on a Glare)

'All heals: replace [Heal] I with [Heal] II
White Mage: Second Blood Lily, Banish III on 60 second cooldown with large mana cost so we have something to actually use Thin Air on, second charge of Assize
Scholar: Give me my DoTs and Bane back, Dissipation eating Fairy gauge instead
Astrologian: please return SHB/STB astro
Sage: rework to focus on Kardia and DPS more, remove basic versions of heals, make Eukrasia change DPS spells to heals, followup attack to Phlegma'

'Give WHM cleric mode back.'
'Also a WHM main here, I would love a movement tech (even one that only goes to party members like Aetherial Manipulation), and also a second charge of Tetragrammaton. I know better than to hope for something like an AoE DoT.' (that's kinda sad)
'Hmm, Kardion on the while party for a while would be cool.'

and a special shoutout for some non-healer related ones,
MANY Kaiten requests, like at least 25-30
MANY Lionheart requests for GNB, like at least 15-20

'add kaiten to summoner'

'BLU be able to queue and play with others, balancing them out to be tank/dps/support depending on a spell SET placed.'
'BLU to not longer be limited'

'Dark Knight should get coin gauge.' (TRUE we've been waiting for this for so long come on SE)

Compared to how many people directly say 'more damage options', a lot less directly say 'NO more damage options'. Which tells me that a fairly large section would be of the opinion of 'ok whatever' if they got more damage options, and same if they did not. SO the solution would be, I would think, to try and find a way to have a small amount of new damage buttons, but have their impact on the rotation be fairly large comparatively, while also keeping the punishment for mis-executing low via potency balancing.

Both views are valid, however, we have 4 healers, and all 4 of them are made to suit the casuals. Why can't we have current WHM and current SGE, and then more interesting AST and SCH?

No no, we're meant to be an echo chamber, remember, suggesting that one of the healers remains as is would be running counter to the groupthink we have going on here /s

[Renathras]

I'm not really sure what's the point of all this. I think everyone understands that community is made out of millions of individuals with different opinions,

You would think that.

What I'm pointing out is that it's true, despite people here constantly telling me I'm alone in my opinions. In another thread, a poster was asking me what "people" were in agreement with me. Many times it's been brought up my posts here get ratioed/no likes, and that everyone here disagrees with me as proof that the view here is more or less universal and has no strong disagreement among the playerbase.

So you would think that, but clearly, people here DON'T seem to get that. If they did, they wouldn't say things like:

Been reading through threads searchable from "healer" or "healer gameplay" for the last couple hours (over a dozen threads so far scanned in full, many more skimmed) and gone through the replies therein... all to find the most liked comments (after those with purely direct answers to the OP's questions), sadly, centered on stuff like "What healing lol?" "Thought ends as soon as you've solved the fight, leaving you with only very barebone execution", "Expect to be bored after prog", "Green DPS", "Gutted gameplay", and "Your reward for getting good is to be less of a healer... which you could also do by just switching to WAR in the first place", etc...

I'm not seeing any less a portion of negativity there than here.

It does seem like it needs to be pointed out that this place does NOT represent as wide a swath of views as the people here who all seem to agree with one another (hence echo chamber) suggest it does.

I also disagree with the notion that "You're more inclined to be on the more serious side of community if you visit this forum"; a lot of people believe this official forum (as a whole and the role sections) are toxic. The serious discussions/posters are on r/ffxivdiscussion, and they routinely mock this place. So I don't think your argument holds at all.

I quoted all the posts related to healers. Note that only two were "I like healers because they're shiny" (one being liking magic DPS as well because they like wizards). The rest were talking about how they enjoy or dislike healing as a role in a more general sense, with several even suggesting less damage focus in favor of more healing. They might have better insight than you give them credit for.

.

In any case "what's the point" is to counter the argument that THIS PLACE is a wide open forum of diverse viewpoints and that mine alone is somehow out of the mainstream. If mine seems very much in the mainstream there, and that's a far larger portion of the community (far more posters means probably representing a larger sample size), then that suggests that this place is more what's out of the mainstream, or at least only representing one side of it.

And in another thread of 'what do you want to see your main get in 7.0', I can sift through and see healer related things like:

I'm sure you can. Not to accuse you of duplicity, but unlike me, you didn't provide a link. I have to question if you did and I went through the comments, if I might find a lot there disagreeing with the ones you picked to show. Note I posted ALL of the healer related ones from my thread, which shows both sides are valid.

But please, provide the thread link. I'd love to read through the comments myself.

.

That said:

Both views are valid, however, we have 4 healers, and all 4 of them are made to suit the casuals. Why can't we have current WHM and current SGE, and then more interesting AST and SCH?

This is literally my argument here all the time and I get flayed for it.

That's actually more extreme than mine - mine is for only WHM or SGE to stay as it is, AST to get more buffs/related gameplay, SCH to be returned to its SB version, and either SGE or WHM to have a damage kit (probably SGE due to Kardia, but could instead do it with WHM and leave SGE as it is considering it's always been in this state and never had anything like Cleric stance or Aero 3 for people to miss/want back).

I make this argument here all the time. I even have a name for it "The 4 Healers Model". The idea that we have 4 Healer Jobs, and the issue (among many, but related to Job kits/design/playstyle) is that they all play the same. I don't think going from one same (casual/easy) to another same (all hardcore/complex) is the solution. I think the solution is to split and have some representing each.

That is the argument I make here all the bloody time, and get told I'm the only person who thinks that way, that I want "ez mode", "braindead", etc etc.

Amusingly, you get 3 (as of right now) Likes for proposing an even more to the casual side than my own version of this idea. Kinda proves my point all it takes to get likes in this subforum is to be attacking/seen as attacking Ren. Thank you for helping prove that point, too.

No no, we're meant to be an echo chamber, remember, suggesting that one of the healers remains as is would be running counter to the groupthink we have going on here /s

Deo isn't a routine poster here, and is the first - and to date only - poster, in one single post, I've seen endorse my idea. And was doing it as an opposition (I guess Deo thought opposition...) to me, that is, that Deo seems to have thought it was an argument against me, not realizing it was literally my older position before I compromised and gave up either WHM or SGE as well, in a post that was opposing my prior one.

And got 3 Likes for the effort, proving what I always say; bashing Ren is how people here give out/get likes, not good or bad posts. The fact Deo got likes for saying what I say all the time that I get told is a terrible idea and browbeaten over kind of proves that.

[Shurrikhan]

It does seem like it needs to be pointed out that this place does NOT represent as wide a swath of views as the people here who all seem to agree with one another (hence echo chamber) suggest it does.

I also disagree with the notion that "You're more inclined to be on the more serious side of community if you visit this forum"; a lot of people believe this official forum (as a whole and the role sections) are toxic. The serious discussions/posters are on r/ffxivdiscussion, and they routinely mock this place. So I don't think your argument holds at all.

There's a difference between representing a wide swath of interests and a wide swath of ideas.

Put 10,000 people chosen randomly from throughout the world and put them on the same project or in the same kind of activity for 5+ years.

They will at first have a wide swath of interests and a wide swath of ideas.

Thereafter, for a time, the numbers of ideas on the project or activity at hand will grow.

After that, though, the number of ideas will shrink, because the worse ones will have already been parsed out.

What you continually assume to be differences in interest by which to dismiss the ideas developed on the OF (unless, of course, they're yours or in agreement with yours) may very well simply be a result of the participants being in closer, more consistent, multiple-thread-spanning contact with one another, which allows for far more detailed parsing of ideas.

There's a reason you see productive discourse on rDPS, aDPS, "taxation" and the like here, while such discourse is often stymied on r/xivdiscussion and often isn't even worth referring to on r/ffxiv. There's a reason why most concrete suggestions on that main or subreddit are usually copy-pasted from here, from a longform suggestion video by an abnormally involved gameplay-/theory-crafter, or are a cobble of OF ideas. There's simply more prolonged exposure and discussion here. People get to know each other, and threads see far more cross-over.

That deeper discussion pares away less functional ideas does not make its participants all suddenly skewed in their interests.

So obviously, healers are split into casuals which mostly reside in mainsub, and more hardcore people who reside in here or places like r/ffxivdiscussion. Both views are valid, however, we have 4 healers, and all 4 of them are made to suit the casuals. Why can't we have current WHM and current SGE, and then more interesting AST and SCH?

Honestly? Because why sacrifice any of them?

No, seriously. Unless we can actually find some significant group of people who actually like spending 80+% of their GCDs on a single button, that's not an aspect worth maintaining -- on any healer. And that can be changed with very, very little overflow (affecting other aspects of that job's gameplay, capacities, and, say, their skill / effort-to-output curve*).

* This refers to the % of maximal performance possible under a particular product of forms of [variably weighted] optimization and execution of each. Generally, you want that to output to feel fairly logarithmic compared to effort, increasingly but smoothly decreasing in its returns, such that, say, perfecting Transpose lines is never going to overtake the significance of more core optimizations like maximizing relative uptime, good AF/UI cycling, etc.

That doesn't mean they should suddenly get complex rotations or, gods forbid, cumulatively punishing actions (like combos, where each GCD spent towards them increases the punishment of fat-fingering / not completing said combo), nor does it mean damage should be so overwhelming that GCD heals suddenly outnumber the GCDs of an otherwise unchanged filler-attack-spam. Both could carry excessive overall change that could then have a net negative impact, and should therefore be treated with caution and would lack the warrant for that extent of change.

But it does mean that there are one or more aspects whose changes would improve the job overall for nearly all players. And no job should be disallowed from seeing those fine, unobtrusive improvements by being left precisely as is.

And got 3 Likes for the effort, proving what I always say; bashing Ren is how people here give out/get likes, not good or bad posts. The fact Deo got likes for saying what I say all the time that I get told is a terrible idea and browbeaten over kind of proves that.

The inclusion of the <sacrifice any chance of even minutely improving 1-2 jobs to appease whatever tiny portion of people prefer the current state of Broil-spam, little to no GCD healing, lack of meaningful support, etc.> idea is the only reason I can't like that post, despite it making a ton of sense up until that point. Perhaps most looked at the remaining 90% of the post and liked it accordingly?

I doesn't matter who speaks it. I didn't care for it any more when Misshapen Chair first brought it up, before you co-opted it. I'm not going to care any more for telling 1-2 jobs to f off and be the sacrificial lamb now.

[ForsakenRoe]

I'm sure you can. Not to accuse you of duplicity, but unlike me, you didn't provide a link. I have to question if you did and I went through the comments, if I might find a lot there disagreeing with the ones you picked to show. Note I posted ALL of the healer related ones from my thread, which shows both sides are valid.

https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._see_added_to/

Knock yourself out. I tried to catch every healer related one but a couple might have slipped through the net

I doesn't matter who speaks it. I didn't care for it any more when Misshapen Chair first brought it up, before you co-opted it. I'm not going to care any more for telling 1-2 jobs to f off and be the sacrificial lamb now.

I was actually curious about it, so I went back and rewatched the video in question (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbWubxOTUWU) and... yeh, there's a lot of sarcasm and cynical tone. A lot of the things we have discussed over and over here, he also mentions in the video. Things like 'fight design hasn't changed all that much re: how much healing we have to do', 'we've always had to contribute to DPS checks', stuff like that. So I find it weird that all of that seems to have been cast to the wayside with the '4 healers model' being bandied around, like only the final minute of the video was to be considered, especially when he mentions the age old point of 'raising healing required screws over previous content and requires fight designers to completely rethink how they create raids' vs 'you have a slightly more intricate filler rotation'

[Renathras]

...

Whether intended or not, the first part of your post sounds very...aristocratic? Technocratic? "It doesn't matter if this affects other people and they don't like it, they're ignorant children who just don't know any better."

But be that as it may, my point in presenting the quotes was to show that this forum - for whatever reason you want to try to justify it as - is/has been an echo chamber on these issues, and has not been more accommodating to different ideas, which was Sebezy's argument.

Something that I need to state here: When someone presents an argument, and someone counters THAT argument, bringing up a different argument and presenting it as not countered/debunked isn't really fair. I didn't present those quotes to debunk the argument that people of certain calibers, experience, or whatever else think a certain way. That wasn't the discussion. The discussion was whether this place seemed to have a narrow set of represented/accepted views and whether Reddit was more or less accepting of diverse views.

I think I made the case pretty clearly that this place DOES have a narrow set of represented/accepted views, and that the mainsub in Reddit is more accepting of diverse views, which was debunking that argument.

If you want to engage in arguments as to WHY that might be, we can, but that's a different argument. And as I say, sounds rather aristocratic/technocratic, which I don't tend to find a good thing, personally.

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As to the likes in the above post:

As I said, people here dislike me since I'm dogged about representing a different viewpoint, and so "Attack Ren" is what gets likes. People have argued for months that isn't true (and there have been other cases I've pointed to that suggest it is), but that's the most stark example yet. So next time someone talks about which posts have likes and which don't, as if that's relevant to good or bad ideas, I will point again to this as the reason likes are a meaningless metric, as people are willing to like a post that presents the same idea I have as long as the poster attacked me before saying it.

I thought that idea to keep WHM same and make others interesting is somewhat popular, but that might be general consensus from somewhere else.

I think that's the general consensus most everywhere else that isn't here. Or, at least, that people are accepting of it.

Isn't the issue with SMN/RDM not that SMN is easier so much as that RDM does LESS damage? It's not that SMN does the same damage for less work, it's that SMN is actually an outright DPS gain over RDM. We see a similar situation with the Tanks. While WAR was doing less damage than DRK and GNB, people didn't really care (people grumbled, but it wasn't destroying the meta) and GNB was still the most played with DRK represented pretty well. With the last patch where PLD and WAR got buffed (PLD is still on the weaker end), WAR now not only is easier to play, it also has the superior personal and party mitigation and healing suite (did Shake It Off really need a HoT in addition to its other effects on the Job that already has Nascent/Bloodwhetting?), but it ALSO has on many fights the higher damage. There's literally no reason to take a DRK over a WAR unless you just like it's aesthetics as it's doing less damage, harder to play, and doesn't have a better mitigation or HEALING kit than WAR does, and PLD is likewise weaker. So we've seen WAR's use statistics explode.

So the SMN/RDM issue is less that SMN does the same damage as RDM as it is that SMN does MORE damage than RDM.

.

I do think the difference between "leave WHM the same" and "completely rework SMN" is the latter was pulling the rug out from under people. A lot of people liked old SMN and not only did they lose that with new SMN, not only was the Job they liked changed, there was no alternative. There was no Caster introduced that they could even swap to for that playstyle.

On the other hand, what we're talking about here is far more likely to alienate mains of OTHER Healer Jobs who like their simple kits being robbed of them, but if WHM stays the same, people who like it right now won't be alienated, and it'll be a "port in the storm" for people that like the other Healers' current simple playstyle. They might have to level/swap Jobs, but at least they have that option, which SMN did not.

If anything, the SMN change highlights, imo, the reason we need to leave AT LEAST one Healer alone.

I agree with your assessment there on why it makes sense to leave WHM alone and why SE probably would do so. I think the important thing is that the healers be made distinct. Leaving one alone is fine as long as the other three are distinct from it. As I often say, the problem right now is that they're all the same simple, making them all the same complex wouldn't improve the situation, they'd just be homogenized a different way. Better to make them all different in that respect, so that everyone has at least one they like.

And when people bring up aesthetics, I point out that's always going to be true. Some people love BLM's looks but want a FF single-player game version of it, like Vivi from FF9 who just casts their one most powerful spell (or an elemental weakness to the enemy type) over and over then uses Osmose when they get low on MP. But people who enjoy that playstyle won't get it with BLM here. At the end of the day, you can't have every aesthetic/Job to yourself, no one can, and no one should. We each have to decide which we like better, the aesthetic or the playstyle, and as much as possible, the Devs can try to match aesthetic to playstyle. Like SGE is this big brain hyper-smart Greek doctor mixed with Gundam pilot to control their nouliths, so them being a complex Job speaks to that fantasy, while WAR also really appeals to the people that play it because the people that find "unga bunga" appealing are going to find a Job that plays "unga bunga" appealing as well. The match is strong enough WAR players seem to be very satisfied with it.

...but there will be some people whose preferred aesthetic and playstyle don't match up, but that's unfortunately life. Even if we made all the Jobs identical for that person so they could have their pick of aesthetic, that would upset everyone else who doesn't like that. And this is generally accepted in most games. If you play D&D and want to be a character that wears plate armor, casts powerful offensive magics, has the strongest healing spells in the game, can hide in shadows, and can detect and disarm traps, while also pelting enemies with your powerful composite longbow...well, that option isn't there. You can get something close by mixing multi-classes or getting to stupidly high levels where you can abuse some traits (like Rogue "Use Any Item"), but for the most part, you have to pick the parts that you like best. Maybe you choose to go with plate and healing spells and forego the rest with Priest, maybe you give up on the offensive spells and trap detection and try to keep the rest with Ranger, maybe you decide to dual class Fighter into Cleric or Thief into Mage, or maybe you go with the Fighter/Mage/Thief tripleclas Swiss Army Knife. But no matter what you do, you're still going to have to give some things up and decide which parts of aesthetic and gameplay are most important to you. We all do it, and that's just the way it is with games that don't just have an open ended skill system.

But well, I don't really want to read 10s of pages of posts to find out whether mine and yours idea is popular or not. But I'll stand by it (unless someone gives me some insight why it's bad idea, of course), even though I understand the risk of it being implemented the same way SMN was. My reasoning is that WHM is simply most favorite job for casuals, so I think that if SE actually did some drastic changes to healers, WHM is last job they would drastically change, especially if it meant making it more difficult. I myself would love if all 4 healers were very distinct, had a lot of space for skill expressions, and had better gameplay than 12111111, but I really think that keeping one simple job for casuals is much more realistic scenario that SE might consider and even implement. They do not want to alienate casuals which are playing WHM because of it's simplicity, it's simple as that.

Irrelevant to healers:

You mean the one where Titanmen doctored a quote from me to mislead people, cutting out the part where I said that it was doable on spells but had a very small frame to do it in and people decided to ignore that? Most of the people attacking me for that were attacking me from other threads and just saw that as something they could pounce on, not a legitimate disagreement. That seems to happen a lot around here. As far as neutral tone and escalations, I don't have quotes from other people in my signature to belittle or mock them.

I'm not always right, but I'm also not always wrong when people attack me. I don't remember everything in the post, but there were several posts in there where I WAS saying things correct and people didn't care. Because whether the information was correct or not wasn't relevant to them. Attacking me was what they cared about and wanted to do. It's kind of like the people there who will attack Renault for harassment and bullying but refuse to attack Titanmen for harassment and bullying. What that says to me is opposition to harassment and bullying isn't something they actually care about - if they did, they'd call out both - instead, it's just a thing they can use to attack the one guy they don't like while not attacking the guy they like for the same crime.

And one more thing is that a lot of times, people like reading into my posts things that aren't there. It's happened here before, and it happened in that same thread you mentioned. Someone even later seems to have realized it when I said "Why didn't you ask me to clarify instead of assuming the worst?"

Some people's opposition to me is fair, and I tend to actually respect that. Many are not. It doesn't "seem" like everyone's against you in the cases where everyone is, in fact, against you. /shrug

But this is irrelevant to all this discussion and neither here nor there. I moved on, and if other people can't, then there's nothing I can do to help that along anyway. Like your sig, for example.

I was actually curious about it, so I went back and rewatched the video in question (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbWubxOTUWU) and... yeh, there's a lot of sarcasm and cynical tone.

Thanks for the thread, will look it over.

As to the video: The guy is snarky, as that's his style, but he says twice in it this general suggestion, so it doesn't seem he was being sarcastic in it. He says it in the middle of the video and then again at the end. Around 6:15 ("You know what would be surprising though? I don't even want to remove the one DPS button playstyle. Let one healer have this stupid ass rotation - probably White Mage - that way people don't lose their unga bunga role. Embrace some uniqueness where this game allows you to.") and then at the end. And in both places he says his reason for being frustrated with SGE is how over-safe it played it. "I just don't want every single healer to feel exactly the same at the core", which is my own position as well.

He sounds snarky, but not disingenuous when he says it both times.

And, as we've discussed here before, he's actually wrong on that one thing - that encounter design has always been the way it is now. Boss autos with possible crits, random targeted damage, few oGCD heals, etc.

I would go further & say "If you want beginner/casual friendly healer go play CNJ" lol, because they do have what it takes for those MSQ encounters, dungeons, and trials! (obviously random DF groups wouldn't take that kindly, but you get the idea)

CNJ isn't a full Job. You literally cannot que for some content on it.

This is like saying "If you want a complex healer, go play BLU". Sure, that's AN answer, but is it a GOOD answer when you can't do basically any content on it? Would you accept that as the solution for your desired type of healer? For the Devs to tell you you can get that on BLU as it is right now?

Besides, we even had this same discussion once before...

Would that take more work than just giving up on that job preemptively for some sort of misguided political bargaining chip for a nebulously defined group that can't or won't speak for itself?

I mean, they do speak for themselves. I speak for me, others in places like Reddit that I quoted are speaking for themselves as well. You just dismissed their views and statements. You can't call a person a mute when they're speaking a ton and you're just choosing not to listen because you don't think their words deserve being listened to.

Oh, as for the DoTs - I know some of you love the idea of putting more damage into the DoT and less the nuke. Sebezy makes this argument intelligently and cogently. Using math, she's shown that it would be more forgiving to casual players to have more damgae in their DoT......
......
......
......
...if they have decent DoT upkeep. If you have 100% DoT upkeep, then having more damage on your DoT sounds great for casual healers, since it means they can devote more GCDs to healing with less damage loss. Fantastic idea, right?

I did a DF P9N two days ago. The other healer did not use her DoT.

...no no, not "let it drop off". Not "occasionally forgot about it in a heated moment for a minute or something".

No. Didn't use it. At all. As in, the debuff NEVER appeared under the boss health bar.

But she had pretty solid Glare uptime and kept her GCD rolling as far as I could tell between Glare, Medica 2, Cure 2 spot healing, and so on. Kept Lucid rolling pretty well, and used Lilies and Misery.

The only thing she didn't use, like at all, was Dia. Meaning this proposed change that's supposed to help casuals would actually have hurt that casual. Something I don't think skilled players understand is how difficult it is for casuals to upkeep DoTs. I've mentioned it a lot, but for some reason, it's like talking to a brick wall. (I tend to have good, but not perfect, DoT upkeep because I use my 1 min CDs to keep alignment, Lucid on WHM and Aetherflow on SCH [since it's where I often look at my Aetherflow and Chain buttons since they're right next to each other and notice when they're at 30 second increments), but I struggle with that some too when things get hectic or even just not being able to see the debuff fall off the boss (as I've said many times, the native UI which I and other casual players use does not inform you in any noticeable way when your DoT falls off, and there's no way to have the boss healthbar show all buffs so you can see other important stuff on it from party members while having the Focus bar show only your own - at least, not that I've found; not that that would be a perfect solution, but it might help some......though casuals often don't use focus target, either, first time I did was in the Solus fight so I could keep track of his spells, and then I realized how amazingly useful this tool was.)

Anyway, point is, I don't think a lot of skilled players are understanding how casuals play, so they don't understand why their solution/compromise proposals don't appeal to said casuals, and might actually make things worse for them, not better. Until that understanding is reached, it may make compromise difficult, while leaving the people on the skilled side TRYING to compromise very confused as to why their proposals keep being rejected.)

And as to your "Who benefits?" question:

Casual healers do.

I don't understand how this is hard to understand, but making Jobs more complex is going to hurt the people already not inclined towards complexity. Propsals for making WHM more complex do not make GCD heals less punishing. The only thing that would outright do that would be making the GCD heals contribute to Misery, an idea you oppose (I get why you oppose it, your reasons aren't invalid, I'm just pointing out that you do oppose the one thing that would be most casual friendly to do). On the other hand, giving it a more involved damage rotation is going to hurt casual players since it means breaking out of it to cast GCD heals, the comfy fallback of the casual, is more punishing, not less. That the damage comes from 5-10 buttons instead of 3-5 doesn't make it more friendly unless those buttons do damage even when not pressed or the Job is given mechanics to increase their damage when they engage with their GCD heals.

I'm not sure how this is difficult to understand.

The people helped by the change are the people bored right now, not the people who are not.

[ty_taurus]

NJ isn't a full Job. You literally cannot que for some content on it.

This is like complaining that a room is too dark to be used as a guest room because the lights are off. Have you tried turning them on?

I don't actually think anything useful will ever be done with the classes, nor do I think that's the smartest or best solution. The entire argument originally was to try find some way to compromise with you who is entirely unwilling to compromise an inch for the sake of conversation. But saying that Conjurer or any other class "Cannot" be used is literally stupid. All you do as the dev is assign the rest of White Mage's actions to Conjurer except for any DPS buttons they would otherwise add, swap those actions for traits that substitute those actions with added flat potency on your filler, and flip on the switches that are flipped off. Naturally, I have no experience with FFXIV's engine, so actually making that change myself would require learning that engine, but doing the equivalent in something like Unity or Unreal is something I could probably knock out in an hour mechanically. I'd probably spend more time mathing out how to make Conjurer's damage values viable. But it would take very little time to make it functionally identical to any other job.

If the dev team wanted to do it they can do it far more easily than adding an entire new job. They won't because they feel no need. They aren't in the same position of wanting healers to be healthy, well-designed jobs for their game and aren't trying to bargain with a forum white knight for some peace and quiet. But if they felt the desire to make jobs more interesting, offer more rewarding gameplay, and have a stronger appeal to more skilled players, yet provide easy-access entry points for beginners, reworking the classes to be beginner friendly, viable choices even in Savage (even if not meta choices), it's one of the fastest and most economical ways to do so. The classes were even originally intended to be interchangeable with jobs, not just incomplete stepping stones. Jobs only had a few actions the class didn't have, and classes had access to every cross class option. The problem was there weren't enough actually usable cross class actions for any given class to use that weren't also available to that class' respective job.

[Renathras]

This is like complaining that a room is too dark to be used as a guest room because the lights are off. Have you tried turning them on?

I'm not even sure what you mean by this other than "How about if SE allows Classes to be viable in all content?"; which I'd find interesting, but insanely unlikely considering they haven't added a new one since ROG and they were only debatably useful in specific casts (MRD, mostly) in ARR, and even then were largely relics of 1.0 when there weren't Jobs and they didn't even plan on adding Jobs. Besides, at that point we'd open up the floodgates; "Why isn't GLD a fully capable class like CNJ?", "Why can't I take THM into high end content?", and so on. They COULD do it, but that would be a far bigger rework than just adding a new Job at this point since it would need to be done for every Class or the whole system wouldn't even make sense at that point.

I don't actually think anything useful will ever be done with the classes,

Agreed. And that was my point as well.

The entire argument originally was to try find some way to compromise with you who is entirely unwilling to compromise an inch for the sake of conversation.

Ahem:

My initial position: Don't change any of the healers/don't make them more complex.
My second proposal: How about we change 2 to more complex and keep 2? Works with the Pure/Barrier split.
My third proposal: Okay, how about we just leave 1 the same? WHM makes the most sense.
My fourth proposal: Okay, how about SGE as the 1 we leave the same? There's a decent argument for that.
My fifth proposal: Okay, how about we leave 1 the same, and you can pick it, even the one I like the least, AST?
My sixth proposal: Okay, so I get nothing? You won't leave me even one? Okay, how about we add a new healer to be near one we already have (I suggested Druid vs White Mage with Druid being the complex elementalist dps rotation), where it can be a "complex version" and the 1 can remain unchanged as the simple one and you get all 4 of the rest and IN EFFECT also get a complex version of the one we don't change?
My seventh propsal: Okay, so you want all the existing healers (aesthetics was the argument at the time, somehow not satisfied with Druid, even though that's what people are proposing for their WHM change suggestions... <_<), so how about we give you all 4 we have and make the added/new one the simple one, even though that makes the least logical sense?
My seventh proposal: Okay, so you really want NONE to be where I can enjoy them? Alright...so here's a proposal for SCH, already arguably the most complex, to get a LITTLE more complex but MOSTLY stay the same, and you get all the rest. How's that?

VS:

Your initial position: All the healers must change to be more complex. They need something to do during downtime. They need complex DPS rotations.
Your second (final up until now) position after a lot of debates/discussions: Okay, so some people don't like doing damage. How about all healers must change to be more complex. They need something to do during down time. 3 get complex DPS rotations and 1 gets a complex buffing rotation.

...and that's also been your FINAL position. Until the post above where you suggest "White Mage Classic", your position has been unyielding across, what, a year and a half of us having these back and forths?

...right. So now that we're clear I'm not the one "unwilling to compromise an inch for the sake of conversation". Hell, I DID compromise 3 inches for the very sake of conversation, remember? Here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...e-Proposal-SCH

Did you forget that time I compromised several inches entirely for the sake of conversation? And that I was literally the ONLY one compromising at all?

(Also, this comes across as just another version of "Let's have White Mage Classic" - though if you read the post I just quoted from above, I'm not opposed to that idea entirely. Hell, IT WAS ORIGINALLY MY IDEA lest your forget: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6238083

Remember? Where we had that big fallout because you were insisting it needed to be a Class and didn't read my posts? And you eventually admitted you didn't read my posts, but used the excuse of me insulting you as a reason for you not to apologize?
...I'm not intending to rehash THAT fiasco of a "discussion" other than to point out I literally proposed this before, that we add Druid as a branching Job from WHM just like how SCH/SMN both branch from ACN, and have Druid work as the simple WHM, or alternatively, WHM as the simple one and Druid the more complex nature one. (This also goes back to your unwillingness to allow a Job/aesthetic to be simple UNLESS there's an identical complex one, but you are NOT willing to share that across all the Jobs, as noted in your latest post here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6310132 , which kind of reeks of a "As long as I have mine, I don't care; I'm only willing to share if I still get it AND OTHER THINGS TOO and you get only the breadcrumbs I give you to pacify you", which is...I've before used the word selfish, because that's what it is, but I know that offends you, I just don't know what other word to use, since it's not any positive word I can think of. A compromise that is "I get everything I want and you get only the smallest thing you want while I still get that, too, you just get a lesser copy" is effectively what it is.)

But I'm the "inflexible" one. Right... <_<

As to it being "stupid": Yeah, the Devs can program and flip flags and all that. But if they made one and only one Class viable in all content (CNJ) and no others, that would seem like a really nonsensical system. "Yeah, so classes are baby Jobs that you promote out of. You don't use them in end-game content. Oh, except this one. It's used in end-game content. It's used as a baby there, but it can be used there. But none of the others. Why not? Because we were too lazy to add another Job and we were also too lazy to make all the other Classes viable."

Imagine you're a new player and you're told Classes aren't viable. But then you have this one exception. So this new player hears that Classes (CNJ) are viable. Then goes into an end game raid on GLD and gets destroyed and berated and quits the game in frustration because they don't understand what happened.

It makes way more sense, given what's established and how the game has worked since 3.0 (adding new Jobs and no new Classes) to just make it a full Job. The alternatives of making all Classes viable OR only one (CNJ) just don't make sense, and seem more like you want all players to have some psychological clue that "the baby healer isn't a real Job" or something. There's just no logical reason to do what you propose and it would be more work than just adding a new Job.

If the dev team wanted to do it they can do it far more easily than adding an entire new job.

No. It would not be "far more easily" because, again, they'd have to rework all Classes to be viable OR have a wonky system of only one Class being viable in a system that otherwise has only Jobs and where Classes, for all practical applications, do not exist. There is no world where that's "more easily" than just adding a new Job. Especially when they can simply copy wholesale all the abilities of an existing Job and only need to swap the FVX on a dozen or so abilities, and the VFX they'd be swapping to are already in the game. Hell, making CNJ where it gaimed higher level WHM abilities like Stone IV would be harder than just coping the WHM Job and having one version that stopped at Stone IV instead of upgrading to Glare.

and aren't trying to bargain with a forum white knight for some peace and quiet.

And that, Ty, is you finally getting to the crux of the matter:

You aren't interested in compromise. You just want me to stop representing a separate position and shut up. Inflexibility, thy name is Ty.

You can keep calling me inflexible if you wish, but the record shows otherwise.

[Shurrikhan]

Whether intended or not, the first part of your post sounds very...aristocratic? Technocratic? "It doesn't matter if this affects other people and they don't like it, they're ignorant children who just don't know any better."

Mate, you were acting like any narrowing of ideas could only come from a narrowing of interests, seemingly to then dismiss ideas coming from these forums (unless in agreement with you) as a result of interests too narrow to be worth considering remotely representative.

While the nature of the participants is a possible reason for narrowed ideas, the nature of that participation in the given venue is just as likely a reason for why discourse may vary between two locations.

Which is exactly what one will see, too, in perusing r/ffxiv and r/ffxivdiscussion. Both tend to show the same base opinions as here. It's only the more concrete, constructive theorycrafting of improvements/solutions that ends up developing differently... because r/ffxivdiscussion and especially r/ffxiv hardly has any such theorycrafting period -- again, due to the characteristics of that venue (we very rarely maintain long-form or multi-thread discussion with each other over there).

I did a DF P9N two days ago. The other healer did not use her DoT.

Which mattered oh so much... in P9 Normal? ???

Our DoTs are the value of 2.5 to 2.6 fillers per minute -- less than 11% of our total direct DPS (smaller still for SCH or AST rDPS), or at most ~5.6% of a DPS's throughput given the same ilvl and percentile. A DPS loses as much from minor misalignments.

And you're going to claim, what, that it'd be utterly abhorrent/unfair/devastating if a healer should have to hit more than a single button to get 90% of its damage potential?
???

Propsals for making WHM more complex do not make GCD heals less punishing.

Any new design lever a kit could add to make GCD heals less punishing... would be complexity. Manipulars are complexity. Lilies, themselves, are... complexity. Plenary Indulgence is... complexity.

Your proposed all-GCD-heals-feed-the-Bloodlily solution, too, relies on... complexity.

In your case, by hiding a Glare's value and effectively a 100 MP refund in every GCD heal, shifting their effective MP costs in ways that further penalize higher-MP-costing GCD heals relative to Cure/Regen, turning Glare into a trap to be removed from your hotbar, and making oGCD heals largely redundant from the sheer amount of free healing thereby possible... except when obliged to spend every 4th GCD on Misery. (Each GCD for which you forget to do so will cost you 71% of a Dia's bonus value, a far more severe and frequent rigid timing check than WHM has ever had before.)

P.S. If actually balanced, you aren't ultimately going to give GCD heals a lower relative cost at any particular HPS requirement.

If you increase offensive ppgcd but decrease the expected %offensive uptime, you make GCDs a part of gameplay but slightly increase the relative penalty of each GCD missed, even though the total rDPS dependence on management remains the same. If you make every bit of healing --GCD or otherwise-- "free", then you have to balance the kit around that fact, thus increasing the relative rDPS impact of any mismanaged healing ability while badly reducing your output ceiling in solo or little-healing-required content and far more early capping the sense of progression available to healers as they grow more experienced and/or more geared.

However, you can change how they fit within the rest of the kit to make them far more intuitive and therefore friendly to players, especially those without the experience to have yet made sense of those oddities.

The only thing that would outright do that would be making the GCD heals contribute to Misery, an idea you oppose.

Which was, among other things, because your proposed implementation was bonkers levels of broken, easily giving WHM up to triple the free healing of other healers (while devolving Solace and Rapture into solely a saving of 2s of casting time and 300-900 MP saved).

Yes, you 'reduced complexity' in effectively removing Glare from the kit and making oGCDs a less mana-intensive option in case one needed them, all by removing the core benefit of Lilies to instead add a cleaving Glare's damage value to every single GCD heal, with no complicating limitations beyond "Dump every 4th GCD," but that was largely why your suggestion was so broken. The lack of underlying complexity on your roundabout attempt to reduce GCD-healing penalties left you with no controls by which to stop your runaway train.

...But you've also added further complexity, even in a zero-nuance way, via the braindead but punishing chore of having to hit Misery every GCD it's available as not to waste Blood Lily cultivation, so that the GCDs you just lulled players into using liberally again become traps every 4th GCD (when Misery is made available).

-----

Yet the funniest thing is that the whole attempt ignores the fact that if the devs just hadn't given each job the means to maintain 100% offensive uptime in the first place, they wouldn't then have their attack potencies tuned down to balance them around that fact. You could literally just curtail WHM's oGCD healing (putting them at high MP costs) and buff their GCD actions (both output and cost-efficiency) to the same effect as making every healing action also a cleaving Glare.

If you actually approached the matter interested in efficient design and player-friendliness and wanted to reduce the skill-gap and unintuitiveness caused by the sharp gap between at-cost and "free" heals... the easiest solution is found in rebalancing the kit power itself, as not to leave a third of each healer's kit as a "fallback" to veterans but an actual trap to less experienced players.

The people helped by the change are the people bored right now, not the people who are not.

"I don't hate it" =/= "Any and all possible changes, even in keeping with and no harm to my interests, would disturb me."

And pick a damn camp. Who are you for?

Is it those whose rewards are most pronounced under the existing system? I.e., those who 'solve' the fight, then repeat at nauseum, laughing at any fool who dares use one more GCD of healing than they absolutely had to while you get your Malefic percentage that much closer to 91.7%?

Or is it casual players?

See that balance of healing kit power proposed above, by which we stop leaving healer kits a counterintuitive mess? That would primarily benefit the casual experience in healing, even while also meeting many of the requests of more veteran.

It's also a change.