For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[Renathras]

Okay, and then sometime comes along...

Note that's what people want to do with Healers. But yes, I agree. I don't think they'll ever add an actual Support role anyway. Ranged arguably WAS a Support-sub-role in the past, but it's changed away from that. I think that was their original design intent. In ARR, BRD used the Healer LB3, and in the End of an Era ARR cinematic, cast protect on the WAR while the WHM moved up to heal him.

I think the issue largely comes down to...balance. Say DNC has a lot of support options and MCH has none. So how do we balance that? Does MCH need to do all the damage that DNC would contribute to a SAM or BLM if they were in the party (highest) or what it would be if DNC was Dance Partnering the RDM? Does MCH new more utility like Dismantle? If so, is that weighted by players as more or less important than Dance Partner SAM? Maybe it depends on the fight. Maybe it depends if one fight has mechanics at 2 mins that make SAM's burst less but Dismantle worth more, or if the 2 min burst has the boss doing nothing so the SAM can blow it out of the park with Dance Partner and Dismantle is barely useful that fight because boss mechanics happen 100 seconds from each other so that Dismantle isn't ready but for every other major mechanic at 240 sec, losing 2-3 uses over the course of the fight because the mechanics don't line up with it.

As much as people hate the dreaded "b" word, it's the reason there's not a lot of differentiation. Pull up the DPS spreads on specs in WoW sometime and you'll see massive % gaps between the top and bottom spec. But the game's combat system also is a lot less rigid, with talent choices and Jobs having various levels and types of utility and stuff. The cost of difference is people having to take a turn at being blackballed - something the community has not shown it won't do - so the Devs do everything they can to avoid that. Which happens to include beating anything different or interesting out of Jobs... <_<

(...though it is funny to me reading Nizzi's post in the SGE thread where he's pointing out that SCH and SGE and even AST and WHM are distinct from each other...)

But I agree with you the rug shouldn't be pulled out from under people. It's one reason I oppose changing all the Healer designs to be damage rotation focused.

You know, thinking about it more, if you actually want to enhance the experience for players who want to be more support-y, what you need to change isn't the jobs, it's the encounters.

Agreed in part. It's really a whole combat system change. Encounters are too rigid and class design is too rigid. And the community has a bad habit of punishing any Jobs that aren't if they underperform (or overrewarding them if they are different and overperform, such as Ares- er, I mean, WAR-god.)

I do agree that there need to be more avenues for types of support. I think that's why Expedience was such an exciting ability to me, since it's something that's NOT directly damage related (and while it has the mitigation, movement itself can be a different kind of mitigation), yet is very clearly useful and people prize it, showing there are other options for support besides "Raise" and "more damage".

...

So you know, being ratioed and browbeaten and accused of all sorts of things like ulterior motives and such CONSTANTLY doesn't feel better than just having my posts buried. I won't keep arguing the point, but I can post things like I do here and my posts aren't buried. I often will get downvotes and some people disagreeing with me (vehemently), but also some people agreeing or saying "But he's not wrong" or otherwise coming to my defense/agreeing with me, and so on.

That doesn't happen here. I've seen you once recently (thank you again, btw) correcting someone for lying about me...but it took 2-3 pages and literally no one else would do it, with people upvoting the posts instead. I've seen Vetch semi-correct I think twice now (not really support me, but more say to someone else that their attack may not be fair - not actually calling them out or supporting me, but it's something as at least a respectful "point of order"), though again, those posts got upvotes and mine didn't and his corrections didn't. Both of those (semi-positive) examples are incredibly recent and, so far, isolated cases.

Perhaps it's that Reddit is less tolerant of different views than here, but I see posts there with people raging on healers and posts where people praise them, and the comments come from both sides. Here, it's me and...that's it. And the attacks on me here are worse than any I've ever gotten on Reddit. And that's saying a lot, since Reddit isn't the kindest place on the internet.

[Shurrikhan]

Note that [changing one role into an altered and narrow version thereof that only fits a small fraction of the role's jobs] is what people want to do with Healers.

Unless you're referring to the far rarer and extreme positions of those who want to remove all GCD healing instead of at all trying to make them more relevant again...

...It's not the same. It's really not.

Having additional healing-downtime options, reducing the portion of CPM (and possibly portion of GCDs) spent on our filler attack, and better spreading out its CPM... is not alike to, say, changing a MCH into a Support instead of a DPS.

That change in MCH's role necessitates a change in where one's output comes from (shifting it from self to others). Allowing healers more buttons to press in the time they already cannot heal does not do that; the available healing was already capped.

Nor would, say, adding more Card-related GCD options to AST suddenly force WHM, SGE, and SCH, too, to take on GCD buffs by nature of simply being in the same role as AST; even Ty's requested parameters for Healers as a role (no more than 30% of CPM spent on a single action, 10+ actions required to reach 80% of total CPM, and able to meet healing requirements) were as about broad as possible short of "should be labelled Healer" and were utterly uncontroversial to anyone playing XIV with a button count greater than that of an SNES controller.

Perhaps it's that Reddit is less tolerant of different views than here, but I see posts there with people raging on healers and posts where people praise them, and the comments come from both sides. Here, it's me and...that's it.

Been reading through threads searchable from "healer" or "healer gameplay" for the last couple hours (over a dozen threads so far scanned in full, many more skimmed) and gone through the replies therein... all to find the most liked comments (after those with purely direct answers to the OP's questions), sadly, centered on stuff like "What healing lol?" "Thought ends as soon as you've solved the fight, leaving you with only very barebone execution", "Expect to be bored after prog", "Green DPS", "Gutted gameplay", and "Your reward for getting good is to be less of a healer... which you could also do by just switching to WAR in the first place", etc...

I'm not seeing any less a portion of negativity there than here. There's a far larger portion that just forms no appraisal and will solely answer the OP's question, but the moment evaluations comes up... they've actually been even more negative, on average, than these forums.

___________________

I'd say you can get meaningful value out of Magick Barrier in savage.

How often, though, does it actually save long-term resource (rDPS) by avoiding death in a situation where no one else could make that difference or by sparing a healer GCD, though? It feels like it's rarely if ever significant enough to do so.

Tangent: This actually feels like a good reason for AoEs to become weaker smart heals (e.g., a 300p smart-heal instead of a 400p basic heal), such that non-AoE mitigation can actually make a positive difference, and for more mitigation methods to become partially split among nearby allies (raising their maximal individual mitigation without improving their total mitigation, thereby providing more utility and agency).

[Renathras]

WARNING: Long thread because of quotes. See: TL;DR if you want and then can skim back up through the comments to see if you agree or not.

...

Actually made a thread (more general) to see kind of what people on the main sub think of the roles in a general sense: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...which_is_your/

Likes aren't what I'm looking for here, it's comments people actually wrote out. Something you'll find if you read the healer specific ones are...varied.

"I've always loved healing, no matter what game, I always try healer first and generally stick to it. I always hate worrying about if my dps is high enough, or if I'm doing the right rotation."
Perhaps it's my interpretation, but this SOUNDS like a person saying they don't like involved DPS rotations as they worry about not doing them right, but they enjoy healing instead.

"...and I just don't care about big numbers or DPS contests for there to be a draw there"
This was a person saying they like healer and find tank too stressful and aren't drawn to DPS. I don't think it's a bridge too far to assume they like healers not having involved damage rotations.

Next healer didn't really comment on the playstyle, just that they like being able to hard carry teams in DF. Certainly doesn't seem like someone who dislikes current healer design, at least not in the content they run.

"Healing. In high-end pugging it’s about reading the other healer (and everyone else) and figuring out how to order your ogcds correctly to prevent overheating. In normals it gets exciting if people start dying."
This one is the first one I think somewhat matches what you guys are saying...but not QUITE. This person didn't say they dislike healing at present, they say they like it in high end pugging and making an oGCD plan, and they find normal exciting when people are messing up. While they don't say they want more damage abilities or are bored, I think it's reasonable that they get bored in normals if people aren't dying (per their last comment), though that's inference on my part.

"healer for me, it just clicks"
Doesn't really comment either way, but this person doesn't SOUND like they dislike current healing.

"I like healing and hate it all at the same time. Astro is my go to healer it’s busy and I enjoy that as the other healers feel boring to me"
This is the first comment that's more or less in agreement with here unambiguously. Though they don't say they want more damage abilities per se, they also say the other healers are boring except for AST, which they find busy enough to enjoy. Their words "I enjoy that". Not asking for more damage buttons either, but some of you have suggested AST get more buff stuff to juggle instead, and agrees with you guys that the other three are boring. So this is the first comment that unambiguously agrees with this forum here.

The next comment is from a person who identified themselves as a DPSer: "Healing's alright, the fast queues are fantastic but lack of DPS rotation gets boring after awhile. My 2 key is gonna wear out on my MMO mouse at this rate."
This comment SORTA agrees with you guys here, if we ignore the first two words of "Healing's alright". But it agrees with you guys on the lack of DPS rotation getting boring after awhile. But it's also not from a healer main. (Not making any "real healer" comment here, I'm just pointing out it isn't from a person who identifies as a healer but I felt it was worth adding since it DOES unabiguously agree with here as well, so we can keep the tally fair.)

"Magic DPS, followed by Healers
I just wanna be a Wizard :V"
Here for completion, but I don't think we can really glean anything from it other than this person doesn't seem to dislike current healers. But also "I just wanna be a Wizard" isn't really something we can work with. XD

"Healing as Astro is a close second though because I like managing the cards, occasionally saving the day, and their LB3 is fañcy"
Another DPS main, but seems to really like AST. Not seeing anything about it being boring or bland or not having enough damage buttons.

"I main Black Mage, but my favorite role is actually healer. I enjoy playing all the healers. I think it's the most engaging role to play in duty finder. Saving a party from what seemed like a certain wipe feels very good.
What I'd like changed is an increased emphasis on healing. Most of your actions as a healer are not healing, they're your one DPS button."
This is more or less the exact opposite view of this forum and reflects what I've asked for a lot of times - more emphasis on healing, less on damage dealing. This person might even be the kind who would like that "GCD heals nourish the Blood Lily" idea.

"If I Tank, I get a shitty healer who's spamming LV1 base spells in LV90 Roulette at 90% HP. If Idecide to play Healer, I'm getting a Tank who doesn't know what Migitations are.
Despite all that, I enjoy Tanking/Healing the most, Melee DPS is the worst for me."
Here for completeness, but again doesn't really help us.

"Healers, i love fast paced raiding stuff and a good healer always gives you the comfort to pull or dps mindlessly without worrying about dying."
Not super helpful either...but this person seems not to dislike healers, either.

"Healer. I would say it is the only job that does something beyond either standing still or doing the exactly one good rotation all DPS classes are cursed with… but that is a lie, the dev team had to add boring and predictable fight-starting room-wides to even force out some healing.
Still, it has its moments, usually in alliance raids where tons of players ---- up and you have to salvage the entire situation. Sometimes it happens in 8-player and 4-player content as well.
But, overall, mostly because it is the least tunnel-visioned jobs, more so than tank. It is also the role where people learn to move the party list to a spot they actually see instead of chugging it in the corner somewhere. Suddenly, you have to care about all the faceless bozos running around you."
Person seems not to like DPS rotations, and is complaining about fight design not healer design. This person doesn't seem to dislike current healer design nor to be asking for more DPS buttons.

"I prefer tanking.
Healing causes me severe stress. I've literally found my hands trembling after a difficult encounter. I only heal during really easy encounters as a result."
Again added for completion, but not really something we can work with other than this person dislikes healing hard content. Though they certainly DON'T seem to be saying healing is boring/braindead/easy/needs more to do to keep awake like this forum does.

"It used to be healer but due to shinanigans in my static I volunteered to go DPS this expansion and my stress has gone way down and I'm enjoying raids again.
I think I was burnt out on healing and didn't realize it. I play SMN now and like to use my utility abilities but I can never tell if I'm being helpful which now bothers me lol."
For completeness, but again doesn't really help us other than they found healing stressful (so probably not braindead) and we don't know the nature of the mentioned "shinanigans", so we can't really do anything with this one other than that this person probably doesn't think healers are braindead.

DPS main again "I prefer dps because interesting rotation + not any real responsibility in casual content, but i also love playing healer for fast queues and alliance raids can be a lot of fun when everyone is dead as a healer lol
and white mage is my go-to brain dead glare-bot instant queue job"
...but this one doesn't seem to hate healers, and seems to like WHM specifically when they do casual content. Does think it's brain dead, but seems to see that as a positive.

"Healer. Because everyone's at my mercy."
The post goes on in that vein, so isn't super helpful to us, but again, a person that doesn't seem to hate current healer design.

"healer is by far my favorite. some people think having 3 dps buttons are "boring" but i like not having combos to deal with to do my job correctly. and the constant "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING" to the dps is always a fun time. my least favorite is tank. i don't like any of them because of super strict rotations."
Do I...need to mention that this person agrees with me? This is the kind of person I mean when I say WHM should stay the same for people who like current healer designs and you guys here are like "People? Who? You just mean you, right?" As I always say, "No, it's not just me". Here's an example of a person who isn't me saying the same thing.

"Healer
1. Watching bars fill up is more satisfying to me than watching bars empty.
2. Many-Buttons difficulty is not enjoyable to me, nor is Scheduling-Every-Click-a-year-in-advance
3. I don't have a competitive bone in my body.
4. I enjoy being the guy who has an eye on everything.
What would I like changed? In an ideal world, more healing, less DPSing. But that's not what the game is or ever will be, so I'm good as is."
Do I need to point out this one agrees with me? Even more than that, this person is literally asking for less DPSing, not more. "Many-Buttions difficulty is not enjoyable to me, nor is Scheduling-Every-Click-a-year-in-advance". Does that sound more like you guys and the prevailing opinion on this forum, or more like mine? Pretty sure we can chalk this one up into also being at odds with the forum here.

"Usually healer. I enjoy all three equally, but a bad healer is hard to carry for. If a tank or the dps are bad the game just becomes slower and not impossible (usually). A bad healer is hard to overcome and usually leads to duty failure. If I heal I can at least ensure the healer is good (or in the case of an 8 or 24 man Duty, at least half the healers are good)."
Doesn't really say either way, but here for completeness. Again, doesn't seem to hate current healer implementation.

"I prefer support type classes in all games so I tend to gravitate to healer roles the most. My second would be class cannon mage types.
I enjoy being able to analyze a fight/encounter with a little less stress on my own “rotations”. I personally don’t find myself in a panic when keeping others alive but it’s probably because I tend to heal primarily in every game. This also allows me to make calls during a fight or encounter to pull some stress off other jobs who can focus more attention to their performance. Also as a healer you can carry a less experienced team through trouble FAR more than if you were another role.
Currently in FFXIV I would like healers to actually need to do more healing outside of first time runs/brand new content. Currently most content boils down to 2 DPS buttons and the occasional OGCD press. I wish healing was more about weaving DPS into your healing vs weaving a heal into your DPS button spam.
Edit: I also enjoy situations where you can hardcore pocket heal a player allowing them to really pump those DPS numbers."
Again, this person seems to agree with me. Don't like stressing about their own rotation, enjoys supporting others, even outright claims to enjoy what Semi always calls "being a heal bitch" and that she hates. Also another vote for more healing, and weaving damage into their healing rotation instead of weaving heals between damage. Which means this person sounds like they'd also like the WHM GCD heals generate Misery, as that would be a model that encourages weaving occasional damage (Misery) in between their healing.

"Healer.
If you disrespect me, you die. Your life is in my hands. RESPEEKT MY AUTHORITALL"
Yeah...not really useful again.

"Green DPS (ie Healer).
I love being able to keep everybody alive while simultaneously keeping up with the actual DPS."
While saying "Green DPS", sounds like this person actually enjoys it.

"My favourite role is DPS, because it's the only role in this game. In other games I'd play a healer, but that role doesn't exist in this game. We only have DPS, DPS with a bit of healing, and DPS with a 1 button rotation."
Here's a post that agrees unambiguously with this forum! It's...also not being upvoted. So take that for what you will.

"love hate relationship with healer. fun to prog and do whacky pugs on, boring as shit in ordinary reclears"
Second to bottom comment as of right now, last comment on healers (the very last comment below it is about DPS), and...agrees with this forum. Like this is straight up what the majority here believes, that healers can be fun in prog but are boring as <poopie> in reclears.

.

TL;DR:

I'm not posting all these to start a tally/contest of which is more popular. This is WAY too few answers/responses to cite as somehow representative of the whole community of the playerbase or anything like that, and wasn't a poll, just a general question about how people like the roles and which.

But what I would like to draw your attention to is that there are other people there (unlike here) that agree with me, and that the position here that is so prominent is actually the minority position there. It IS just one thread, so I'm not saying that's true of the whole forum, but what I'm specifically trying to draw your attention to is that my view is not unique to me, there are others that hold it. And that unlike here, on Reddit, they're given equal say. Notice none of the posts there have been downvoted to the point of being hidden (one was deleted but I think it was someone accusing someone else of using a DPS meter). They all seem to be voicing their positions and are being tolerated, not briggaded or dogpiled.

But, the position prevalent here is still present there. It's not disallowed, it's not being downvoted, it's not being mocked. That isn't a reverse mirror of this echo chamber that's just swinging too far to the other side. It allows both to coexist, and they both seem to be represented by multiple people on all sides...unlike here.

And look at all those different opinions!

There are people that seem to love current healers, to like them, and to dislike them. There are people that find them boring and people that find them TOO stressful/exciting and those that find them comfy. There are those who like the current Jobs as they are, those that want more damage and find them boring, those that want more healing, those that want less damage, and those that don't like any but AST. Your views and my views, views in between, and views even more on the "healers should heal" than my own are all represented there in JUST that one thread.

Contrast here.

If you can't see the contrast...I'd ask you to try looking again.

[Deo14]

Snip

I'm not really sure what's the point of all this. I think everyone understands that community is made out of millions of individuals with different opinions, and that even most controversial opinions will have thousands of supporters, you pulling anecdotes from casual subreddit which is more skewed towards healer mains doesn't really amount to anything.

You're more inclined to be on the more serious side of community if you visit this forum, and because of that, people here will see behind the shallow role that are healers. You can look at the comments in your mainsub's thread and most of them are "I like healers because they're shiny" or "because I can save my party in normal content". But other people have better insight, and don't judge surface level only, just like here.

So obviously, healers are split into casuals which mostly reside in mainsub, and more hardcore people who reside in here or places like r/ffxivdiscussion. Both views are valid, however, we have 4 healers, and all 4 of them are made to suit the casuals. Why can't we have current WHM and current SGE, and then more interesting AST and SCH?

[ForsakenRoe]

And in another thread of 'what do you want to see your main get in 7.0', I can sift through and see healer related things like:

SCH more uses for Fairy Gauge
WHM Seraph Strike from PVP
SCH 'energy drain more visual flair/stronger'
AOE version of ED for AOE pulls
Ruin 2 upgrading to something unique when reaching Broil levels
Meltdown for SCH
OGCD to replace Undraw that throws card at enemy for scratch damage (to show they'd rather just do token damage than buff an ally, apparently, i don't get it either)
Different functioning gapclosers on healers (WHM Seraph, SCH has Expedience, AST getting Urianger's Bridge-Skip tech)
Return Bane on SCH
More Kardia-interplay for SGE, such as AOE, boosting shields for Kardia target etc
AOE rescue???
ST Addersting dump skill
SGE 'another attack would not go amiss'
AST 'i want the rework to go all the way to it's core', sounds like they want old cards and Royal Road back
'Healers to have combo actions' (quote: 'Frankly being a glare bot is… exhausting. Holy spam in dungeons is also exhausting. It’s exhausting in the sense that it’s so damn boring.')

Someone says 'I miss when scholar had 2 dots and an aoe spread so much.', a familiar looking name then responds with 'I miss when SCH had 6 DOTS and cleric stance' (yeh me too)

'I think their healing kits are in a good place right now so it'd be more fun (personally) to see them get new skills that focus on damage.'
'Give me Seraph Strike from Bozja.'
'A teleport for Astro. Like a blink'
'For Scholar...I'm honestly content with Scholar's kit rn, no clue what they could add' (yeh neither do the devs, which is why I think it's at the point where it needs to be DRG'd)
'I'd like it if SCH got an improved version of energy drain.' (paraphrasing the context, they don't want it to do more damage, but to have additional effects like more HP restore, AOE damage, increase Bio duration, etc)
'Give me Sleeve Draw back on AST. But in all seriousness I would like a teleport ability called Astroglide where the AST slides along a trail of stars to a designated location.' (the name is sus but the concept is ok)
'GIMME MY OLD SELENE SKILLS BACK!'
'WHM: more oGCDs', and to follow on, 'I just want Regen to be oGCD' (Regen OGCD would need to be nerfed in potency or have at least a 90s CD but it could be interesting)
'AST: Two charges for Astrodyne and Exaltation' (not sure how 2 Astrodynes would work when you need seals to use em, but sure)

A comment chain between A and B:
A:
Healers: A 1-2-3 attack combo, a gauge build attack spell, and an oGCD attack.
Make healer more interesting to play for crying out loud. When people have a vague idea of what's happening in a fight, I barely need to heal anybody already. I actually enjoy it when shit hits the fan, cause at least the fight becomes a bit more interesting.

Immediately after, B:
SCH main here. No. I specifically play healer because I don't want to dedicate any mental real estate to pressing buttons.
If you want a real rotation go play a DPS.

A:
I don't want "a real rotation", I just want more than two buttons to press during a 10 minute fight.

B:
Play SMN then. It's almost as braindead as healer DPS.

(i think B missed the point of what A was asking for)

Someone else responded to A with 'I'd say removal of all DPS skills and make healing actually necessary.', said response is at -10 and therefore I had to click the + to show hidden comment
Multiple people respond to 'C' with some variation of 'that sounds boring as hell', C responds with 'it'd be boring if healing stays as it is now, make healing required more randomized and reactive' or some variation thereof
'Worst idea in the thread so far. How are you gonna do solo content, heal stuff to death?' (lol)

'Scholar: a change to emergency tactics and a new ogcd shield heal' (they don't like how SCH is 'barrier healer' but can only apply OGCD barrier with one skill (Consolation)(same))

'Please take half my skills and combine them or get rid of them, thanks. - Tank mains', with someone responding 'same, as a WHM'

'Healers: Something to break up how boring it is to heal now.'

A WHM says (paraphrased), 'stop floating for every spell cast it looks silly, also bring back elemental themes, also I don't really need new abilities, just trait upgrade current ones'
A SGE asking for the pseudo-Rescue and square shield that are in the role quests
Because arenas are big, 'I’d love to see WHM or all healers get like a remote heal like Lily Bell where you can place an epicenter for heals to help heal everyone in range without a majorly long cooldown.'

'AST: Gravity applies Heavy.' (I'd rather it applied Slow, so it affects attackspeed not movespeed, and cos SCH's Miasma had Heavy (which ideally comes back) but sure)
'WHM needs a second charge of Assize two expansions ago.' (true and real)
'I just want the ability to shield back on AST :’c (to which they were told 'neutral sect is right there', rather dismissive of the point they were trying to make but reddit sure loves to 'well ackshually' every tiny detail they can)
'WHM: Seraph Strike'
'Bring back the 4.0 AST cards.'
'Sects and Royal road for AST'
'AST's only mobility tool (Lightspeed) is currently dedicated to burst windows/card shuffling and I'd like that changed in some way that doesn't involve SMN level simplification of the job'
'Aoe Dia'
'I would love to have some sort of debuff for Astro!' (no mention of what kind of debuff)
'Would really like another AOE ability that follows up with Holy. I know Holy is very powerful, but just spamming a single button for an mob pull, with an occasional Assize, is a tad boring.' (haters will say 'you have Misery' and miss the point)
'For SCH I’d like them to replace ruin 2 with a better spell or just upgrade its animation, maybe make it like a fairy blast or just a low tier broil' (Meltdown?)
'I was literally just thinking how much I’d like a gap closer on WHM like Seraph Strike'
'I want AST to have a cooldown damage spell to give some sort of rotation, and either it's a black hole, or something suitably flashy and spacey.'
'I saw the headline and came here to immediately say gap closer for WHM. Saw what OP wrote and just nodded.' (OP asked for a gap closer for WHM, 'similar to Icarus')

'SGE Main - I think we're in a pretty good spot. But some niceties might include:

A good "Oh Sh!t" single target heal. Not as good as Bene, obviously, but something similar to an auto-crit Excog.
Temporary full party Kardia.
Ticks from E. Dosis trigger Kardia heals. Lower potency than direct damage triggers, of course.'

'All Healers: Another DPS button. Maybe some kind attack that procs off of your nuke or dot? Anything that would make the "rotation" more interesting.'
'Would it really be so terribly OP if SCH and SGE could auto-crit with their GCD heals outside of combat?' (QOL for prepull Adlo-spread, I assume)
'as a whm, yeah, id love a gap closer'
'As a WHM, I'd prefer sage's gap closer gets shoved into a role action instead of being specifically being added to us and not also scholar / astro.'
'I want them to do a review of SCH. I think the theme and fantasy of the job is good. I like fae stuff and I like the battle tactician aspect. It just feels a bit disjointed in application.' (and then a few examples like 'make gauge have more than one use')

'SGE: This is a hard one... SGE's kit is already pretty perfectly balanced around what we have... but, I wouldn't say no to more Addersting spenders or more uses for Eukrasia.'
'Not sure. Currently SCH already feels quite busy and clicky as it is and flows well. Plus, my hotbar is already really full. I think I'd rather see upgrades to existing skills over more buttons.'
'Sch, as specifically an upgrade to dissipation, the fairy jumps on your shoulder (or head if lala) and doubles up on any aetherflow action including energy drain for a short period of time' (reminds me of that 'Assimilation' idea)
'More single-target damage options for SGE. Like single-target versions of toxicon and phlegma. Also more eukrasia combos.'
Familiar name says: 'DoT’s return on scholar. Sage to have more damage buttons. Aero 3 and seraph strike on WHM. Stormblood style cards back on AST.'
'SGE (most healers tbh) could use like.. minimum of 3 more damage abilities, 1 or more movement abilities, and about.. 3 of their healing skills consolidated.'
'I want them to give Scholar haste that is single target so I can give someone mad dps power for pushes'
'As a SCH I feel like my job is pretty complete right now. I would be OK with getting anything. If I had to choose, I guess I would want more fairy abilities that are on the oGCD.'
'WHM: Uber blood Lily? I don’t know, I just want the bloody lily to feed a damage gain.' (not sure I agree on that one chief)
'SCH: Summon Seraph gets upgraded to Titania, for we are her lovely branch.' (ok this one's based, but they are the branch and we are the sapling)
'Fix SCH'

'I'd like useless 1-2-3 with no skill attached to pressing them to become a single button like PVP
It'd be cool for example, give a button that instead of upgrade Glare3 to "Glare IV" for WHM, actually do a combo like Stone > Gust > Glare (all elements whm used/use, which doesn't break combo if you stop to cast any heal), and let's say, completing 3rd would give you a buff that next heal is boosted by 5% or some really neat things. At least glaremage would still be glaremage, but see 3 different cool casts.'

paraphrased, someone asks for 'can we have instant 3 lilies on WHM like SGE gets, so we can actually use heals in the first minute of the fight' (probably would just lead to instant Misery but oh well let em)

'WHM: Litterally just give PVP Seraph Strike. Thats all I want. Its a gap closer, it does damage, and for the memes we can give it freecure as well. It isn’t like Freecure is a useful proc after level 50 anyway.'
'I want SCH to have more healing over time. I don’t want to even LOOK at my main healing options if I’m in a normal dungeon, just leg me do more damage'
'Maybe a mini-kardia on a second target'
'As Sage player: a reason to ever press toxicon. Its a dps down in both single target and AoE situations. a second addersting spender, maybe Lype as AoE dot.'
'Current SCH main. I'm happy with the place it's in. Maybe a charge counter for recitation.'
'They need to take a que from card games and turn AST cards into a deck.' (and then an explanation of what they mean by that, basically 'new cards bad rework pls')
'Besides, WHM has a gap closer. It's Rescue. When the entire party is doing their job, but one jackarse is out there doing their own thing, that DPS can adjust and get yoinked to the party.' (based)
'The ability for more damage to trigger kardia, like dots, just with a weaker potency.'
'One more button of DPS for WHM pls'

'All healers need dashes! I want an ultra sparkly one for AST. Also I'd like something like phlegma, AST damage is a bit.. lackluster. Even if you consider the damage you give to others through cards.
This or give me back sect swapping'

'I agree with you (not sure who) on WHM. Please just buff WHM in general'
'As a SGE main, more Icarus.' (ok one of your 92-100 traits is now burned on 'Icarus now has 3 charges', monkey's paw curls)

'More lasers on Sage. Actually give me a lightsabre for a melee attack. Please. Please give me a lightsabre SE. I dont want much, just a lightsabre. In all seriousness, maybe a crit guarantee like SCH but a little weaker, actually change Zoe to buff it to be like Reci, it'll be weaker because we dont have DT, but it'll still be pretty strong.' (idk about that Zoe change, but lightsaber melee attack sounds like something I read suggested before)

'For WHM I would like OCD Alliance wide AoE rezz with 100% heal on top of it. Miracle would be a fitting name.' (pov: you got Puppet's Bunker and people decided to play PVP)
'I don't main WHM, but I still feel like I'd like to trade Glare and Dia for Quake and Tornado.' (medium based)
'Auto-Life for Healers (basically let’s whoever is under this survive one mortal blow.)' (hilariously broken potential)
another 'more glam options for fairy as SCH, including favorite lovely branch' suggestion
'As AST I want to see LESS abilities, please take away that horrible haste buff that forces our lightspeed into 2m'
'Not my main but i rlly want faerie butterfly wings for sch or just something faerie related tbh'
'SGE: 2 minute buffed Eurkrasia that you can use on Pneuma or Phlegma. Eukrasian Pneuma could be erect a larger shield (like spreadlo) and Eukrasian Phlegma could be a melee combo like Ifrit on SMN'
'Extra Icarus dash/more safe mobility in general would be awesome but probably super overpowered'
'Animation updates for cure 1, diagnosis, physick etc. No actual buff, just make them look awesome.' (lol)
'yes give WHM a gap closer'
'Bring back Aero III and Disable ������������������'
'I stay awake every night praying for a WAR button that removes healers from the game entirely and gives us another dozen or so fell cleave casts' (lol, the way we're going this one will happen with 9.0)
'Sage-more reliable way to generate the dmg charges, allow me to break self shields or dismiss dot to generate a charge'
'AST - more charges on everything, plus a second charge on Earthly Star'
'Astro gap closer and bring back sleeve draw'
'A direct heal 'Oh Shit' button for Sage... Barriers are nice, but they are no benediction. Even something that just gives pure massive shield to a single target would be nice.'
'I think all healer jobs deserve gap closers personally.'
'Not my main but more dots for SCH'
'As a SCH player, really just an instant shield (a la Divine Benison) and an actual point to the Fairie Gauge'
'Bring back Shadowflare or riot'
'RERAISE! RERAISE! RERAISE!'
'Ast: Perhaps a tool that lets you instacast spells, so you actually have some mobility again. (*weeps in Lightspeed being hard required for 2 min windows*)'
'Honestly, I feel a gap-closer should be standard, if not for every class, at least for healers'
'100%, as a sage main I want to see all the other healers get a gap closer so I can actually go back to playing other healers again for the first time in two years'

As a healer and crafting main I want three things: 1.) A proper damage rotation because healing is so little of what I am actually pressing that I go numb when I heal a semi-competent party. 2.) Old Astro back. I want individual card effects and Royal Road back. I would happily go back to maining Astro over Sage if they gave me this. I will give anything for this. 3.) Crafting to actually be more difficult again. (triple-based)

'Make Scholars energy drain the equivalent to Phlegma'
'Egi glamour moonstone carbuncle/Egi glamour obsidian carbuncle'
'Sch: the ability to swap spots with eos.'
'I want Sage to get an even bigger laser. I don't care what the skill does, I just want a big f*** off laser even bigger than Pneuma. Preferably multiple lasers.'

'In general I'd like healers to have a somewhat more involved DPS kit that connects to their healing as well.
Like for Scholar, give us the second DoT back. Give us a new job gauge doohickey that's accumulated by DPSing. On every Broil cast, some amount of gauge is generated, the amount it generates scaling based on if you have 0/1/2 of your DoTs active on the target. At some amount of gauge buildup, you can spend it to do an oGCD Succor-equivalent. Despite being a shield healer, its only oGCD shielding is from Seraph. I don't think it needs a bunch of more oGCD shields, that can be Sage's thing, but I think just one more would be a welcome addition. Also an ability to swap position with your fairy would be neat.'

'pot of greed'

my WHM suggestion (yes I posted too)

'A water spell for white mage/conjurer. Either a shield/counter or an aoe dot preferable but I'd take anything really. Why is water the only element we can't use as a white mage (which has lore and quests revolving around the element)?'
'Sage wise having a cd that gives back more then 1 gall.'
'GNB/SCH/SMN: I literally don't want anything. SCH might be leaning on too bloated as it is. I want them to leave all three as close as they can to what they are now.'
'Im honestly very satisfied with sages kit. I just hope they dont take things away lol.'

'AST: I want the card system changed. I like the idea of the AST buffing party members with the cards, but the system doesn't feel rewarding when done right, but punishing when done wrong. It should feel like the opposite.
SCH: I want a big heal cd. Like our big heal cd is pooling our instant aoe heals and spamming them then. But I want a big healing button'

'hear me out, right... glare 4.' (whoa he's cookin')
'Ability to stay the same for two exansions in a row... I'm an Astrologian...'

'AST: Draw and Play are now GCDs but both do same damage as Malefic so that it is dps neutral.
Draw while out of combat is only 15 CD instead of usual 30 so AST teams don't have to count down to 30 second. T_T
Maybe an extra ogcd heal for lvl 100 skill'

'Sage: Kardia for party, party gets the benefit of Kardia for a set time.'
'Shaking OP's hand, Whm gap closer pls'
'I'd like all healers to have gap closers, and Summoners should get more egis.'
'Idea for AST: a trait that allows Celestial Opposition to trigger Horoscope Helios.'
'AST - make dealing with cards more meaningful or interesting, not just % damage increase.'
'Offensive uses for the Scholar Fairy Gauge.'

'I’d really like a WHM rework. I’m not sure what the goal of the class is right now. It feels like it’s just “healer with less mechanics” which isn’t a job identity it’s just a half empty kit. Maybe give WHM some GCD abilities with cool-downs? It doesn’t need to be a busy job, BLM has the lowest APM of any job in the game but has a distinct, unique play style.' (based and afflatus-pilled)

'As an ASTRO, I would love to finally utilize my cards in a more complex way!!Different effects for each card please!!'

'I want more multi target damage skills for my WHM. I want my damn aero III back or something like it. That and/or something like a long cooldown short window self raise where it will auto raise me on death as another mistake coverage option.'

'WHM: Afflatus Ubiquity. Gap closer/teleport but very elegant not a long slip. The character flashes in a few petals of yellow light and a soft fast serpentine follows the direction they went.
Quickly teleport to the target or selected area. Additional effect: Nourish the Blood Lily. Healing gauge cost: 1 Lily. Unable to cast if bound.' (a lily spender mobility tool, not seen that one before. I like the word Ubiquity though)

'As a healer. One of two things: Either reduce the self healing on tanks so we have a reason to be actively healing, or commit to the "everyone is a dps" and give a few more damage abilities.
Just anything. Even more buffs. Something like ast cards but more active. Every fight is just standing there casting the same single target spell over and over. I actually prefer dungeons with inexperienced tanks at this point because it makes me feel like a actual healer rather then the most boring dps who hits a aoe heal when the boss says to.' (i know the feeling)

'Every Job should get an" ultimate" skill that fits the class fantasy. Cause we reaching lvl 100. Also Healer got enough Healing. Give them fun Utility spells or even better more dps options'
'I really want more tools for play for more jobs. Something similar to the performance feature from Bard. Like some kind of card game from an AST, maybe similar to the shell game?' (tarot reading side-minigame thing ala perform could be cool)
'Sage using their medical knowledge to induce some sort of frailty in their foes sounds like a very cool, very fun thing to add to the job'
'I want WHM to get an upgrade to assize.'

'For WHM I want:
A "Salt and Darkness" like ability for Asylum.' (I'd take a Hollow Nozuchi style one that triggers when we Medica, Cure3 or Rapture)
'An ability to make the next Solace will also apply the Regen spell and/or the next Rapture will apply the Medica II regen
Some sort of mitigation ability now that Collective Unconscious can easily hit everyone' (cough Protect)
'Not a new ability but make Thin Air only work on the next healing or Raise so it can be used like Zoe' (I guess they're annoyed when they accidentally spend their TA on a Glare)

'All heals: replace [Heal] I with [Heal] II
White Mage: Second Blood Lily, Banish III on 60 second cooldown with large mana cost so we have something to actually use Thin Air on, second charge of Assize
Scholar: Give me my DoTs and Bane back, Dissipation eating Fairy gauge instead
Astrologian: please return SHB/STB astro
Sage: rework to focus on Kardia and DPS more, remove basic versions of heals, make Eukrasia change DPS spells to heals, followup attack to Phlegma'

'Give WHM cleric mode back.'
'Also a WHM main here, I would love a movement tech (even one that only goes to party members like Aetherial Manipulation), and also a second charge of Tetragrammaton. I know better than to hope for something like an AoE DoT.' (that's kinda sad)
'Hmm, Kardion on the while party for a while would be cool.'

and a special shoutout for some non-healer related ones,
MANY Kaiten requests, like at least 25-30
MANY Lionheart requests for GNB, like at least 15-20

'add kaiten to summoner'

'BLU be able to queue and play with others, balancing them out to be tank/dps/support depending on a spell SET placed.'
'BLU to not longer be limited'

'Dark Knight should get coin gauge.' (TRUE we've been waiting for this for so long come on SE)

Compared to how many people directly say 'more damage options', a lot less directly say 'NO more damage options'. Which tells me that a fairly large section would be of the opinion of 'ok whatever' if they got more damage options, and same if they did not. SO the solution would be, I would think, to try and find a way to have a small amount of new damage buttons, but have their impact on the rotation be fairly large comparatively, while also keeping the punishment for mis-executing low via potency balancing.

Both views are valid, however, we have 4 healers, and all 4 of them are made to suit the casuals. Why can't we have current WHM and current SGE, and then more interesting AST and SCH?

No no, we're meant to be an echo chamber, remember, suggesting that one of the healers remains as is would be running counter to the groupthink we have going on here /s

[Renathras]

I'm not really sure what's the point of all this. I think everyone understands that community is made out of millions of individuals with different opinions,

You would think that.

What I'm pointing out is that it's true, despite people here constantly telling me I'm alone in my opinions. In another thread, a poster was asking me what "people" were in agreement with me. Many times it's been brought up my posts here get ratioed/no likes, and that everyone here disagrees with me as proof that the view here is more or less universal and has no strong disagreement among the playerbase.

So you would think that, but clearly, people here DON'T seem to get that. If they did, they wouldn't say things like:

Been reading through threads searchable from "healer" or "healer gameplay" for the last couple hours (over a dozen threads so far scanned in full, many more skimmed) and gone through the replies therein... all to find the most liked comments (after those with purely direct answers to the OP's questions), sadly, centered on stuff like "What healing lol?" "Thought ends as soon as you've solved the fight, leaving you with only very barebone execution", "Expect to be bored after prog", "Green DPS", "Gutted gameplay", and "Your reward for getting good is to be less of a healer... which you could also do by just switching to WAR in the first place", etc...

I'm not seeing any less a portion of negativity there than here.

It does seem like it needs to be pointed out that this place does NOT represent as wide a swath of views as the people here who all seem to agree with one another (hence echo chamber) suggest it does.

I also disagree with the notion that "You're more inclined to be on the more serious side of community if you visit this forum"; a lot of people believe this official forum (as a whole and the role sections) are toxic. The serious discussions/posters are on r/ffxivdiscussion, and they routinely mock this place. So I don't think your argument holds at all.

I quoted all the posts related to healers. Note that only two were "I like healers because they're shiny" (one being liking magic DPS as well because they like wizards). The rest were talking about how they enjoy or dislike healing as a role in a more general sense, with several even suggesting less damage focus in favor of more healing. They might have better insight than you give them credit for.

.

In any case "what's the point" is to counter the argument that THIS PLACE is a wide open forum of diverse viewpoints and that mine alone is somehow out of the mainstream. If mine seems very much in the mainstream there, and that's a far larger portion of the community (far more posters means probably representing a larger sample size), then that suggests that this place is more what's out of the mainstream, or at least only representing one side of it.

And in another thread of 'what do you want to see your main get in 7.0', I can sift through and see healer related things like:

I'm sure you can. Not to accuse you of duplicity, but unlike me, you didn't provide a link. I have to question if you did and I went through the comments, if I might find a lot there disagreeing with the ones you picked to show. Note I posted ALL of the healer related ones from my thread, which shows both sides are valid.

But please, provide the thread link. I'd love to read through the comments myself.

.

That said:

Both views are valid, however, we have 4 healers, and all 4 of them are made to suit the casuals. Why can't we have current WHM and current SGE, and then more interesting AST and SCH?

This is literally my argument here all the time and I get flayed for it.

That's actually more extreme than mine - mine is for only WHM or SGE to stay as it is, AST to get more buffs/related gameplay, SCH to be returned to its SB version, and either SGE or WHM to have a damage kit (probably SGE due to Kardia, but could instead do it with WHM and leave SGE as it is considering it's always been in this state and never had anything like Cleric stance or Aero 3 for people to miss/want back).

I make this argument here all the time. I even have a name for it "The 4 Healers Model". The idea that we have 4 Healer Jobs, and the issue (among many, but related to Job kits/design/playstyle) is that they all play the same. I don't think going from one same (casual/easy) to another same (all hardcore/complex) is the solution. I think the solution is to split and have some representing each.

That is the argument I make here all the bloody time, and get told I'm the only person who thinks that way, that I want "ez mode", "braindead", etc etc.

Amusingly, you get 3 (as of right now) Likes for proposing an even more to the casual side than my own version of this idea. Kinda proves my point all it takes to get likes in this subforum is to be attacking/seen as attacking Ren. Thank you for helping prove that point, too.

No no, we're meant to be an echo chamber, remember, suggesting that one of the healers remains as is would be running counter to the groupthink we have going on here /s

Deo isn't a routine poster here, and is the first - and to date only - poster, in one single post, I've seen endorse my idea. And was doing it as an opposition (I guess Deo thought opposition...) to me, that is, that Deo seems to have thought it was an argument against me, not realizing it was literally my older position before I compromised and gave up either WHM or SGE as well, in a post that was opposing my prior one.

And got 3 Likes for the effort, proving what I always say; bashing Ren is how people here give out/get likes, not good or bad posts. The fact Deo got likes for saying what I say all the time that I get told is a terrible idea and browbeaten over kind of proves that.

[Shurrikhan]

It does seem like it needs to be pointed out that this place does NOT represent as wide a swath of views as the people here who all seem to agree with one another (hence echo chamber) suggest it does.

I also disagree with the notion that "You're more inclined to be on the more serious side of community if you visit this forum"; a lot of people believe this official forum (as a whole and the role sections) are toxic. The serious discussions/posters are on r/ffxivdiscussion, and they routinely mock this place. So I don't think your argument holds at all.

There's a difference between representing a wide swath of interests and a wide swath of ideas.

Put 10,000 people chosen randomly from throughout the world and put them on the same project or in the same kind of activity for 5+ years.

They will at first have a wide swath of interests and a wide swath of ideas.

Thereafter, for a time, the numbers of ideas on the project or activity at hand will grow.

After that, though, the number of ideas will shrink, because the worse ones will have already been parsed out.

What you continually assume to be differences in interest by which to dismiss the ideas developed on the OF (unless, of course, they're yours or in agreement with yours) may very well simply be a result of the participants being in closer, more consistent, multiple-thread-spanning contact with one another, which allows for far more detailed parsing of ideas.

There's a reason you see productive discourse on rDPS, aDPS, "taxation" and the like here, while such discourse is often stymied on r/xivdiscussion and often isn't even worth referring to on r/ffxiv. There's a reason why most concrete suggestions on that main or subreddit are usually copy-pasted from here, from a longform suggestion video by an abnormally involved gameplay-/theory-crafter, or are a cobble of OF ideas. There's simply more prolonged exposure and discussion here. People get to know each other, and threads see far more cross-over.

That deeper discussion pares away less functional ideas does not make its participants all suddenly skewed in their interests.

So obviously, healers are split into casuals which mostly reside in mainsub, and more hardcore people who reside in here or places like r/ffxivdiscussion. Both views are valid, however, we have 4 healers, and all 4 of them are made to suit the casuals. Why can't we have current WHM and current SGE, and then more interesting AST and SCH?

Honestly? Because why sacrifice any of them?

No, seriously. Unless we can actually find some significant group of people who actually like spending 80+% of their GCDs on a single button, that's not an aspect worth maintaining -- on any healer. And that can be changed with very, very little overflow (affecting other aspects of that job's gameplay, capacities, and, say, their skill / effort-to-output curve*).

* This refers to the % of maximal performance possible under a particular product of forms of [variably weighted] optimization and execution of each. Generally, you want that to output to feel fairly logarithmic compared to effort, increasingly but smoothly decreasing in its returns, such that, say, perfecting Transpose lines is never going to overtake the significance of more core optimizations like maximizing relative uptime, good AF/UI cycling, etc.

That doesn't mean they should suddenly get complex rotations or, gods forbid, cumulatively punishing actions (like combos, where each GCD spent towards them increases the punishment of fat-fingering / not completing said combo), nor does it mean damage should be so overwhelming that GCD heals suddenly outnumber the GCDs of an otherwise unchanged filler-attack-spam. Both could carry excessive overall change that could then have a net negative impact, and should therefore be treated with caution and would lack the warrant for that extent of change.

But it does mean that there are one or more aspects whose changes would improve the job overall for nearly all players. And no job should be disallowed from seeing those fine, unobtrusive improvements by being left precisely as is.

And got 3 Likes for the effort, proving what I always say; bashing Ren is how people here give out/get likes, not good or bad posts. The fact Deo got likes for saying what I say all the time that I get told is a terrible idea and browbeaten over kind of proves that.

The inclusion of the <sacrifice any chance of even minutely improving 1-2 jobs to appease whatever tiny portion of people prefer the current state of Broil-spam, little to no GCD healing, lack of meaningful support, etc.> idea is the only reason I can't like that post, despite it making a ton of sense up until that point. Perhaps most looked at the remaining 90% of the post and liked it accordingly?

I doesn't matter who speaks it. I didn't care for it any more when Misshapen Chair first brought it up, before you co-opted it. I'm not going to care any more for telling 1-2 jobs to f off and be the sacrificial lamb now.

[ForsakenRoe]

I'm sure you can. Not to accuse you of duplicity, but unlike me, you didn't provide a link. I have to question if you did and I went through the comments, if I might find a lot there disagreeing with the ones you picked to show. Note I posted ALL of the healer related ones from my thread, which shows both sides are valid.

https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._see_added_to/

Knock yourself out. I tried to catch every healer related one but a couple might have slipped through the net

I doesn't matter who speaks it. I didn't care for it any more when Misshapen Chair first brought it up, before you co-opted it. I'm not going to care any more for telling 1-2 jobs to f off and be the sacrificial lamb now.

I was actually curious about it, so I went back and rewatched the video in question (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbWubxOTUWU) and... yeh, there's a lot of sarcasm and cynical tone. A lot of the things we have discussed over and over here, he also mentions in the video. Things like 'fight design hasn't changed all that much re: how much healing we have to do', 'we've always had to contribute to DPS checks', stuff like that. So I find it weird that all of that seems to have been cast to the wayside with the '4 healers model' being bandied around, like only the final minute of the video was to be considered, especially when he mentions the age old point of 'raising healing required screws over previous content and requires fight designers to completely rethink how they create raids' vs 'you have a slightly more intricate filler rotation'

[Renathras]

...

Whether intended or not, the first part of your post sounds very...aristocratic? Technocratic? "It doesn't matter if this affects other people and they don't like it, they're ignorant children who just don't know any better."

But be that as it may, my point in presenting the quotes was to show that this forum - for whatever reason you want to try to justify it as - is/has been an echo chamber on these issues, and has not been more accommodating to different ideas, which was Sebezy's argument.

Something that I need to state here: When someone presents an argument, and someone counters THAT argument, bringing up a different argument and presenting it as not countered/debunked isn't really fair. I didn't present those quotes to debunk the argument that people of certain calibers, experience, or whatever else think a certain way. That wasn't the discussion. The discussion was whether this place seemed to have a narrow set of represented/accepted views and whether Reddit was more or less accepting of diverse views.

I think I made the case pretty clearly that this place DOES have a narrow set of represented/accepted views, and that the mainsub in Reddit is more accepting of diverse views, which was debunking that argument.

If you want to engage in arguments as to WHY that might be, we can, but that's a different argument. And as I say, sounds rather aristocratic/technocratic, which I don't tend to find a good thing, personally.

.

As to the likes in the above post:

As I said, people here dislike me since I'm dogged about representing a different viewpoint, and so "Attack Ren" is what gets likes. People have argued for months that isn't true (and there have been other cases I've pointed to that suggest it is), but that's the most stark example yet. So next time someone talks about which posts have likes and which don't, as if that's relevant to good or bad ideas, I will point again to this as the reason likes are a meaningless metric, as people are willing to like a post that presents the same idea I have as long as the poster attacked me before saying it.

I thought that idea to keep WHM same and make others interesting is somewhat popular, but that might be general consensus from somewhere else.

I think that's the general consensus most everywhere else that isn't here. Or, at least, that people are accepting of it.

Isn't the issue with SMN/RDM not that SMN is easier so much as that RDM does LESS damage? It's not that SMN does the same damage for less work, it's that SMN is actually an outright DPS gain over RDM. We see a similar situation with the Tanks. While WAR was doing less damage than DRK and GNB, people didn't really care (people grumbled, but it wasn't destroying the meta) and GNB was still the most played with DRK represented pretty well. With the last patch where PLD and WAR got buffed (PLD is still on the weaker end), WAR now not only is easier to play, it also has the superior personal and party mitigation and healing suite (did Shake It Off really need a HoT in addition to its other effects on the Job that already has Nascent/Bloodwhetting?), but it ALSO has on many fights the higher damage. There's literally no reason to take a DRK over a WAR unless you just like it's aesthetics as it's doing less damage, harder to play, and doesn't have a better mitigation or HEALING kit than WAR does, and PLD is likewise weaker. So we've seen WAR's use statistics explode.

So the SMN/RDM issue is less that SMN does the same damage as RDM as it is that SMN does MORE damage than RDM.

.

I do think the difference between "leave WHM the same" and "completely rework SMN" is the latter was pulling the rug out from under people. A lot of people liked old SMN and not only did they lose that with new SMN, not only was the Job they liked changed, there was no alternative. There was no Caster introduced that they could even swap to for that playstyle.

On the other hand, what we're talking about here is far more likely to alienate mains of OTHER Healer Jobs who like their simple kits being robbed of them, but if WHM stays the same, people who like it right now won't be alienated, and it'll be a "port in the storm" for people that like the other Healers' current simple playstyle. They might have to level/swap Jobs, but at least they have that option, which SMN did not.

If anything, the SMN change highlights, imo, the reason we need to leave AT LEAST one Healer alone.

I agree with your assessment there on why it makes sense to leave WHM alone and why SE probably would do so. I think the important thing is that the healers be made distinct. Leaving one alone is fine as long as the other three are distinct from it. As I often say, the problem right now is that they're all the same simple, making them all the same complex wouldn't improve the situation, they'd just be homogenized a different way. Better to make them all different in that respect, so that everyone has at least one they like.

And when people bring up aesthetics, I point out that's always going to be true. Some people love BLM's looks but want a FF single-player game version of it, like Vivi from FF9 who just casts their one most powerful spell (or an elemental weakness to the enemy type) over and over then uses Osmose when they get low on MP. But people who enjoy that playstyle won't get it with BLM here. At the end of the day, you can't have every aesthetic/Job to yourself, no one can, and no one should. We each have to decide which we like better, the aesthetic or the playstyle, and as much as possible, the Devs can try to match aesthetic to playstyle. Like SGE is this big brain hyper-smart Greek doctor mixed with Gundam pilot to control their nouliths, so them being a complex Job speaks to that fantasy, while WAR also really appeals to the people that play it because the people that find "unga bunga" appealing are going to find a Job that plays "unga bunga" appealing as well. The match is strong enough WAR players seem to be very satisfied with it.

...but there will be some people whose preferred aesthetic and playstyle don't match up, but that's unfortunately life. Even if we made all the Jobs identical for that person so they could have their pick of aesthetic, that would upset everyone else who doesn't like that. And this is generally accepted in most games. If you play D&D and want to be a character that wears plate armor, casts powerful offensive magics, has the strongest healing spells in the game, can hide in shadows, and can detect and disarm traps, while also pelting enemies with your powerful composite longbow...well, that option isn't there. You can get something close by mixing multi-classes or getting to stupidly high levels where you can abuse some traits (like Rogue "Use Any Item"), but for the most part, you have to pick the parts that you like best. Maybe you choose to go with plate and healing spells and forego the rest with Priest, maybe you give up on the offensive spells and trap detection and try to keep the rest with Ranger, maybe you decide to dual class Fighter into Cleric or Thief into Mage, or maybe you go with the Fighter/Mage/Thief tripleclas Swiss Army Knife. But no matter what you do, you're still going to have to give some things up and decide which parts of aesthetic and gameplay are most important to you. We all do it, and that's just the way it is with games that don't just have an open ended skill system.

But well, I don't really want to read 10s of pages of posts to find out whether mine and yours idea is popular or not. But I'll stand by it (unless someone gives me some insight why it's bad idea, of course), even though I understand the risk of it being implemented the same way SMN was. My reasoning is that WHM is simply most favorite job for casuals, so I think that if SE actually did some drastic changes to healers, WHM is last job they would drastically change, especially if it meant making it more difficult. I myself would love if all 4 healers were very distinct, had a lot of space for skill expressions, and had better gameplay than 12111111, but I really think that keeping one simple job for casuals is much more realistic scenario that SE might consider and even implement. They do not want to alienate casuals which are playing WHM because of it's simplicity, it's simple as that.

Irrelevant to healers:

You mean the one where Titanmen doctored a quote from me to mislead people, cutting out the part where I said that it was doable on spells but had a very small frame to do it in and people decided to ignore that? Most of the people attacking me for that were attacking me from other threads and just saw that as something they could pounce on, not a legitimate disagreement. That seems to happen a lot around here. As far as neutral tone and escalations, I don't have quotes from other people in my signature to belittle or mock them.

I'm not always right, but I'm also not always wrong when people attack me. I don't remember everything in the post, but there were several posts in there where I WAS saying things correct and people didn't care. Because whether the information was correct or not wasn't relevant to them. Attacking me was what they cared about and wanted to do. It's kind of like the people there who will attack Renault for harassment and bullying but refuse to attack Titanmen for harassment and bullying. What that says to me is opposition to harassment and bullying isn't something they actually care about - if they did, they'd call out both - instead, it's just a thing they can use to attack the one guy they don't like while not attacking the guy they like for the same crime.

And one more thing is that a lot of times, people like reading into my posts things that aren't there. It's happened here before, and it happened in that same thread you mentioned. Someone even later seems to have realized it when I said "Why didn't you ask me to clarify instead of assuming the worst?"

Some people's opposition to me is fair, and I tend to actually respect that. Many are not. It doesn't "seem" like everyone's against you in the cases where everyone is, in fact, against you. /shrug

But this is irrelevant to all this discussion and neither here nor there. I moved on, and if other people can't, then there's nothing I can do to help that along anyway. Like your sig, for example.

I was actually curious about it, so I went back and rewatched the video in question (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbWubxOTUWU) and... yeh, there's a lot of sarcasm and cynical tone.

Thanks for the thread, will look it over.

As to the video: The guy is snarky, as that's his style, but he says twice in it this general suggestion, so it doesn't seem he was being sarcastic in it. He says it in the middle of the video and then again at the end. Around 6:15 ("You know what would be surprising though? I don't even want to remove the one DPS button playstyle. Let one healer have this stupid ass rotation - probably White Mage - that way people don't lose their unga bunga role. Embrace some uniqueness where this game allows you to.") and then at the end. And in both places he says his reason for being frustrated with SGE is how over-safe it played it. "I just don't want every single healer to feel exactly the same at the core", which is my own position as well.

He sounds snarky, but not disingenuous when he says it both times.

And, as we've discussed here before, he's actually wrong on that one thing - that encounter design has always been the way it is now. Boss autos with possible crits, random targeted damage, few oGCD heals, etc.

I would go further & say "If you want beginner/casual friendly healer go play CNJ" lol, because they do have what it takes for those MSQ encounters, dungeons, and trials! (obviously random DF groups wouldn't take that kindly, but you get the idea)

CNJ isn't a full Job. You literally cannot que for some content on it.

This is like saying "If you want a complex healer, go play BLU". Sure, that's AN answer, but is it a GOOD answer when you can't do basically any content on it? Would you accept that as the solution for your desired type of healer? For the Devs to tell you you can get that on BLU as it is right now?

Besides, we even had this same discussion once before...

Would that take more work than just giving up on that job preemptively for some sort of misguided political bargaining chip for a nebulously defined group that can't or won't speak for itself?

I mean, they do speak for themselves. I speak for me, others in places like Reddit that I quoted are speaking for themselves as well. You just dismissed their views and statements. You can't call a person a mute when they're speaking a ton and you're just choosing not to listen because you don't think their words deserve being listened to.

Oh, as for the DoTs - I know some of you love the idea of putting more damage into the DoT and less the nuke. Sebezy makes this argument intelligently and cogently. Using math, she's shown that it would be more forgiving to casual players to have more damgae in their DoT......
......
......
......
...if they have decent DoT upkeep. If you have 100% DoT upkeep, then having more damage on your DoT sounds great for casual healers, since it means they can devote more GCDs to healing with less damage loss. Fantastic idea, right?

I did a DF P9N two days ago. The other healer did not use her DoT.

...no no, not "let it drop off". Not "occasionally forgot about it in a heated moment for a minute or something".

No. Didn't use it. At all. As in, the debuff NEVER appeared under the boss health bar.

But she had pretty solid Glare uptime and kept her GCD rolling as far as I could tell between Glare, Medica 2, Cure 2 spot healing, and so on. Kept Lucid rolling pretty well, and used Lilies and Misery.

The only thing she didn't use, like at all, was Dia. Meaning this proposed change that's supposed to help casuals would actually have hurt that casual. Something I don't think skilled players understand is how difficult it is for casuals to upkeep DoTs. I've mentioned it a lot, but for some reason, it's like talking to a brick wall. (I tend to have good, but not perfect, DoT upkeep because I use my 1 min CDs to keep alignment, Lucid on WHM and Aetherflow on SCH [since it's where I often look at my Aetherflow and Chain buttons since they're right next to each other and notice when they're at 30 second increments), but I struggle with that some too when things get hectic or even just not being able to see the debuff fall off the boss (as I've said many times, the native UI which I and other casual players use does not inform you in any noticeable way when your DoT falls off, and there's no way to have the boss healthbar show all buffs so you can see other important stuff on it from party members while having the Focus bar show only your own - at least, not that I've found; not that that would be a perfect solution, but it might help some......though casuals often don't use focus target, either, first time I did was in the Solus fight so I could keep track of his spells, and then I realized how amazingly useful this tool was.)

Anyway, point is, I don't think a lot of skilled players are understanding how casuals play, so they don't understand why their solution/compromise proposals don't appeal to said casuals, and might actually make things worse for them, not better. Until that understanding is reached, it may make compromise difficult, while leaving the people on the skilled side TRYING to compromise very confused as to why their proposals keep being rejected.)

And as to your "Who benefits?" question:

Casual healers do.

I don't understand how this is hard to understand, but making Jobs more complex is going to hurt the people already not inclined towards complexity. Propsals for making WHM more complex do not make GCD heals less punishing. The only thing that would outright do that would be making the GCD heals contribute to Misery, an idea you oppose (I get why you oppose it, your reasons aren't invalid, I'm just pointing out that you do oppose the one thing that would be most casual friendly to do). On the other hand, giving it a more involved damage rotation is going to hurt casual players since it means breaking out of it to cast GCD heals, the comfy fallback of the casual, is more punishing, not less. That the damage comes from 5-10 buttons instead of 3-5 doesn't make it more friendly unless those buttons do damage even when not pressed or the Job is given mechanics to increase their damage when they engage with their GCD heals.

I'm not sure how this is difficult to understand.

The people helped by the change are the people bored right now, not the people who are not.

[Renathras]

This part is the part that makes me think it's more a case of 'well if there has to be a pound of flesh offered in sacrifice, let it be this one for X reason',

I mean, it could be, but the rest of his marks don't seem to indicate that. Yeah, he said "stupid ass" rotation, but he also talked about HW SCH "*uckface or die *hit", and kind of mockingly talked about SGE being a convoluted mess to see if the community would embrace it or not - and I don't think he was offering SGE as a "sacrifice" there, that sounded serious as well. If you watch his videos, you'd hear he's pretty much snarky and sarcastic about everything. He was in this video as well, including referring to HW SCH days and to Cleric Stance. His statement about embracing uniqueness (which includes one healer having a simple rotation) seemed genuine.

Also, I don't dislike your Medica 2/Cure 3 idea. 30 sec CD 15 sec duration would put it about on par with Soil and Kerochole (without the mitigation). Not as sure about Regen -> Cure 2, though...I really wish Regen was something we could use more often, and there are times to use it on 2 Tanks. Being able to only use it on one would kind of suck (e.g. double tankbusters that apply bleeds, like P5S). I remember in ARR when Medica 2 had a 30 sec duration (and Regen 18 sec?) that a common thing to do in general casual content was refresh Medica 2 every 30 sec. It wasn't rolling HoTs like I enjoyed so much on WoW Resto Druid, but it was close enough and covered for a lot of minor messups by party members. This would be a little like that.

Knock yourself out. I tried to catch every healer related one but a couple might have slipped through the net

I did finally get around to this. Here are the healer posts I found that were not asking for more damage abilities. While some were kind of just whatever posts, many were of people saying they like healers right now, or asking for - shocker I'm sure - more healing abilities:

“SCH main here. No. I specifically play healer because I don't want to dedicate any mental real estate to pressing buttons.
If you want a real rotation go play a DPS.”

“Play SMN then. It's almost as braindead as healer DPS.”

“Then go play another job if you find it boring.”
(Those three were from the same poster)

“I'd say removal of all DPS skills and make healing actually necessary.”

“People hate the current system too. It's healer, not DPS. If you want to 1-2-3 something, queue as a DPS.
And getting rid of "all" DPS is obviously not the way it'd go, but moving the focus from having to DPS to actually needing skill to heal a party.”

“SGE Main - I think we're in a pretty good spot. But some niceties might include:
• A good "Oh Shit" single target heal. Not as good as Bene, obviously, but something similar to an auto-crit Excog.
• Temporary full party Kardia.
• Ticks from E. Dosis trigger Kardia heals. Lower potency than direct damage triggers, of course.”

“Not sure. Currently SCH already feels quite busy and clicky as it is and flows well. Plus, my hotbar is already really full.
I think I'd rather see upgrades to existing skills over more buttons.”

“Sch, as specifically an upgrade to dissipation, the fairy jumps on your shoulder (or head if lala) and doubles up on any aetherflow action including energy drain for a short period of time”

“toxicon and phlegma are used in single target too, adding more would just be button float.
phlegma especially, I always find sam having a big skill one expansion and a st/aoe version the next expansion stupid as hell.”

“As a SCH I feel like my job is pretty complete right now. I would be OK with getting anything.
If I had to choose, I guess I would want more fairy abilities that are on the oGCD.”

“WHM: Uber blood Lily? I don’t know, I just want the bloody lily to feed a damage gain.
SCH: Summon Seraph gets upgraded to Titania, for we are her lovely branch.”

“Not my main (anymore), but there's a tweak I'd really like to see on WHM. Namely, its resource generation looks (IMO) bizarre next to every other healer. When you zone in somewhere, Sage starts out with all Addersgall charges. AST has all charges of Draw ready to go. SCH can instantly get all charges of Aetherflow as soon as combat starts with the touch of a button.
WHM though? Fuck you, generate each lily from scratch slowly and only in combat.
Downvote me all you want, call me a scrub, whatever, but IMO I think WHM should also begin an instance with all its lilies to bring it more in line with the other healers. That way you can immediately dump them into blood lily on trash, or hold them for heals during the pull.”

“The ability for more damage to trigger kardia, like dots, just with a weaker potency. I know that that is a nightmare to balance, what with more targets = more heals, but warrior already has that and it would make it a lot easier to incentivise me to move it around to other players to quickly top them up if needed if kardia was putting out more healing.”

“As a SGE main, more Icarus.
How am I supposed to outrun the tank in dungeons if they have one more use of their gap closer than I do?”

“Honestly, I think all the jobs feel really complete at this point- so I'm personally only hoping for small QoL stuff, cool animation/potency upgrades for abilities, and maybe some transforming skills for the finale of some burst windows.”

“For WHM I would like OCD Alliance wide AoE rezz with 100% heal on top of it. Miracle would be a fitting name.”

“Auto-Life for Healers (basically let’s whoever is under this survive one mortal blow.)”

“As AST I want to see LESS abilities, please take away that horrible haste buff that forces our lightspeed into 2m
That or give us some MOBILITY, I want something instant I can press to move like lilies or ruin or whatever the sage one is
This is only rly a problem for savage but still... please let me move lol”

“Not my main but i rlly want faerie butterfly wings for sch or just something faerie related tbh”

“Extra Icarus dash/more safe mobility in general would be awesome but probably super overpowered”

“Animation updates for cure 1, diagnosis, physick etc. No actual buff, just make them look awesome.”

“Yes an gap closer to the Tank would be nice ”

“AST - more charges on everything, plus a second charge on Earthly Star”

“A direct heal 'Oh Shit' button for Sage... Barriers are nice, but they are no benediction. Even something that just gives pure massive shield to a single target would be nice.”

“I think all healer jobs deserve gap closers personally.”

“As a SCH player, really just an instant shield (a la Divine Benison) and an actual point to the Fairie Gauge. It feels so vestigial at this point that you could add literally any skill and tie it to the gauge and I'd be happy. Or not even a skill, but a trait or something where your next GCD heal has its potency increased relative to the Faerie Gauge, immediately dropping it back to zero. Not super interesting but it would take zero effort to implement and feel like the gauge had a real purpose, even if it's passive.”

“RERAISE! RERAISE! RERAISE!”

“Ast: Perhaps a tool that lets you instacast spells, so you actually have some mobility again.
(*weeps in Lightspeed being hard required for 2 min windows*)”

“Honestly, I feel a gap-closer should be standard, if not for every class, at least for healers. If boss fights are going to be Bollywood dance numbers, might as well move to the rhythm amirite?”

“Sch: the ability to swap spots with eos.”

“WHM gap closer as well.”

“I've played GNB, SCH, SMN for basically this whole expac, aside from time leveling the others to cap.
I literally don't want anything. SCH might be leaning on too bloated as it is. I want them to leave all three as close as they can to what they are now.”

“Im honestly very satisfied with sages kit. I just hope they dont take things away lol.”

“AST: I want the card system changed. I like the idea of the AST buffing party members with the cards, but the system doesn't feel rewarding when done right, but punishing when done wrong. It should feel like the opposite.
SCH: I want a big heal cd. Like our big heal cd is pooling our instant aoe heals and spamming them then. But I want a big healing button“

“Ability to stay the same for two exansions in a row...
I'm an Astrologian...”

“AST: Draw and Play are now GCDs but both do same damage as Malefic so that it is dps neutral.
Draw while out of combat is only 15 CD instead of usual 30 so AST teams don't have to count down to 30 second. T_T
Maybe an extra ogcd heal for lvl 100 skill”

“Sage: Kardia for party, party gets the benefit of Kardia for a set time.”

“Idea for AST: a trait that allows Celestial Opposition to trigger Horoscope Helios.”

“AST… Screw it. At high level, just “upgrade” some of our existing buttons to something completely different. We’ll still have them when we sync down.”

“AST - make dealing with cards more meaningful or interesting, not just % damage increase.”

“As an ASTRO, I would love to finally utilize my cards in a more complex way!!Different effects for each card please!!”

“Skill bloat on my healers is becoming a major problem tbh - I'd actually love for skills to be consolidated where possible, to make room for new, shiny skills.”

Lots asking for AOE Kardia, too. That seemed to be a pretty common request (something I've said over and over again as well), and lots of people saying their hotbars are full/bloated and they actually want less abilities, not more. This latter camp was mostly asking for ability upgrades, not new abilities or more abilities.

Also, not healers, but a lot of PLDs asking for a Raise spell (like...a LOT), and a lot of RDMs and DNCs asking for more healing aiblities in various ways (mostly RDMs). A lot of WARs were also asking for more healing abilities, but sarcastically, and a lot of DRKs were asking for them to get some, not sarcastically.

.

EDIT:

So, there's an obviously horribly imbalanced suggestion in there in giving every GCD heal a filler attack's worth of damage and 100 MP via Misery's refund (so that Glare is literally pointless, since you can just Cure or Regen for equal damage at lesser cost), but without that you're left with... WHM pretty much exactly as it is now, but with the balance of GCD heals' MP costs relative to each other improved and a GCD defensive buff whose intended tuning (and therefore usage) I'm uncertain of.

Granted, that was a spitball example, and even if it weren't, people can change their mind / improve upon their past ideas.

Somewhat, yes. More I'm trying to find ways of making GCD heals not DPS losses so that we're "allowed" to use them (yes, I know we can hit the buttons, but you know what I mean - that they aren't the "bad" option to be avoided unless you're out of all your non-GCD spell options first).

My thought on the mitigation would be something like this:

Level 20: Protect. 60 sec CD (probably oGCD). Reduces all physical damage taken by party members within 20y by 5% for 10 seconds.

Level 40: Trait upgrade of Protect to Pro-Shell. 60 sec CD (probably oGCD). Reduces all physical and magical/all damage taken by party members within 20y by 5% for 10 seconds.

Level 70: Trait upgrade of Pro-Shell to Plenary Indulgence. 60 sec CD (probably oGCD). Reduces all physical and magical/all damage taken by party members within 20y by 5% for 10 seconds and grants Confession to self and nearby party members. (Basically, current PI but also reduces all damage taken by 5% for the 10 sec duration).

As to why:

At present, WHM has one party mitigation, Temperance, on a 120 sec CD, that reduces all damage taken by party members within 50y by 10% for 20 seconds. We could contrast this with the other Healers, but why? They all clearly destroy WHM in this category. Let's make it a fair fight. Let's compare WHM's party mitigation to the [u]two most selfish and non-buffing Jobs in the entire game[/i], BLM and SAM

BLM has Addle on a 90 sec CD. This is 30 sec shorter than Temperance. It lowers physical damage by 5% and magical by 10%. Raidwides are generally magical, and seldom last longer than 10 sec. Meaning for all intents and purposes, BLMs using Addle provide MORE PARTY MITIGATION than WHM's using Temperance.

SAM has Feint on a 90 sec CD. Same thing, this time physical at 10% and magical at 5%. It's weaker against most (but not all) raidwides, but still available more often, and again is better than Temperance when against physical raidwides.

While Feint and Addle require the boss being targetable, and we can argue about Temperance's magical buffing and longer duration...the fact that we have to talk about those other things to make Temperance sound better than FEINT AND ADDLE shows just how bad WHM's mitigation kit is vs the rest of the Jobs in the game. RDM has Magicked Barrier in addition to Addle, making it already better at party mitigation in most cases than WHM, as it can use Magicked Barrier like Temperance when the boss is untargetable, and can use Addle when the boss is targetable.

But WHM isn't competing with BLM for a raid spot. WHM is competing with AST. AST, which has Collective once per minute (10% damage reduction for 5 sec if flashed, for 18+5 sec if held/channeled for the duration), and Neutral Sect (120 sec CD, increases healing by 20%, and provides Aspected Helios a party-wide shield for 125% of its 250 potency, boosted by 20%). And, obviously, is WOEfully behind SCH and SGE (but at least isn't competing against them for a raid spot).

I'll also note, Semi has agreed with me on this being a good idea.

And Semi pretty much hates my guts, which should tell you it's a good idea.

.

But yes, it is a spitball example. I've also proposed other changes to WHM:

1) Casting 3x Glares grants a stack of Holy Might (or some such), doubling the potency of the next Glare; or alternatively (and I like this one better), IF AND ONLY IF we make Holy ranged cast like Cure 3 where you can use it on a target or use it centered on yourself (this allows casting it on the boss from range), 4x the potency of the next Holy cast (600 potency and a damage gain over Glare); it can make it instant (like PLD does Holy Spirit) not, I'm fine either way. This could give a PLD-lite rotation of Glare, Glare, Glare, Holy, and bring Holy into the single target rotation. If for SOME reason people don't like Holy, then it can turn the Holy button into Banish once proced and Banish will do that damage instead.

Note this is an idea that Ty has said he kind of liked as WHM being a sort of Caster parallel to PLD. Which, I agree, would be thematically cool. And I just like the idea of getting to actually use HOLY, the ultimate White Magic spell, in combat against the mighty dragons and such of the world instead of relegating it to a flashy light show against lesser minions in mindless wall-to-wall pulls. Speaking of that...

2) Casting 3x Holys (must damage at least one target) grants Holy Retribution; the next Misery cast will not consume a Blood Lily. This is to change the AOE rotation from just Holyspam. Holy is a DPS loss on single target, so "farming" Misery this way against a boss would be a damage loss. And the requirement it must damage a target precludes this being used during downtime to prep an extra Misery. Likewise, it doesn't encourage pre-casting a Holy when the boss is about to become targetable again (though this is technically already done by some people because it is an ever so slight DPS gain) since it require 3x Holies for the Holy Retribution proc, not just one (this is not a "nourishes the Blood Lily" effect; this is more like PLD's Holy Might). To give you some loose idea, I'm thinking something like DRK's The Blackest Knight/Dark Arts effect here, though it's triggered like PLD's Holy Might (1-2-3 combo, though in this case, it's 1-1-1). Where it negates the cost of the next Misery as opposed to generating Blood Lily, if that makes sense, like how Dark Arts doesn't generate MP, it negates the MP cost of the next Edge/Flood of Shadow.

3) Make Assize a GCD with a 30 sec CD. Obviously, the potency would need to be a bit higher. Right now it does 400 "free", so maybe something like 600 potency to the first target and 50% less for all remaining targets would be the ticket (400 *30/40 = 300; that is, it normalizes, with its current CD to 100 potency per 10 sec, so adding the GCD from a foregone Glare cast should put that at 300 + 310 = ~600 to the first target worth of potency, and 300 to all others). Reduces the burst a bit, so might make it 625 or 650? If we implement this along with 1, it means you'd have a rotation of Assize, 3Glare, 1Holy, 3G, 1H, 3G, A, H, 3G, H, 3G, H, 2G, A if no damage is being taken by the party. Of course, it wouldn't be exactly this, since you're also using 3 Lilies in there somewhere, and then a Misery after the 1/2/etc min Assizes, especially the even minutes, for buff windows.

4) I've thought about Aero 3 because people like it so much, but honestly, making Assize a 30 sec CD and making 3 Glares proc a Holy (and for AOE, 3 Holies proc a Misery) mixes things up pretty nicely without it. Alternatively, have Assize upgrade to Aero 3 (animation, not DoT), and later to Banish and be that 30 sec CD. I think Assize is better, but I don't mind any of those outcomes since it's the same result.

.

Those aren't exactly "don't change anything" (lest someone wrongly call me "inflexible" as I make the best Gumby impersonation of anyone here...)

You don't even know I want.

You want more damage and/or buff buttons on healer Jobs, more complexity on all of them.

Is this not so? Do you NOT want more damage and/or buff buttons on healer Jobs, more complexity on all of them.?

Sounds like I do know what you want.

The specifics aren't exactly relevant when stating that what you want is, to me, a punishment not a reward. I do not see more damage buttons as a reward, I see it as a punishment. I do not see more complexity as a reward, I see it as a punishment. Do you NOT want more damage buttons and more complexity?

Where did I say "1-2-3 combo"?

I don't even think you know what my stance is other than I want to see all 4 healers changed and be more complexed.

That's literally what I'm calling a punishment, not a reward - all 4 healers changed to be more complex. I mean, it sounds like I understand your position correctly and am responding correctly to that. HOW complex isn't what I see as the punishment. Making them more complex is what I see as the punishment. Therefore, you wanting them to be more complex - which you DO, yes? - I accurately say is what I see as a punishment.

(Also, for the record, I read every post I reply to. All of them. Why do you think my posts are so long?! Because I try to reply to all of it that I think is applicable and needs replied to, which is...pretty much always most of it unless I lose my cool enough to stop mid-reply.)

So why do I say WHM vets are being alienated by "leaving WHM alone"? Because they are.

Who are "they"? I'm a WHM vet, and I'm not being alienated by leaving WHM alone. I'd be alienated by changing WHM, just as SMNs were alienated when SMN was changed out from under them. I thought it was wrong then and I'd think it's wrong if we do it to WHM.

You are unwilling to compromise and give them anything.

Read my above 3/4 points. Not only am I willing to compromise - far more than you are, I'm also willing to completely give up ever again playing and enjoying the other three healer Jobs. It's insane to me you guys think I'm being inflexible and not compromising when I'm literally the only one actually giving ground, and the ground is giving you outright 75% of the healer Jobs and giving you part of the remaining 25% as well. Imagine if one nation declares war on a second, and the second agrees to give them 75% of their land and allow joint governance of a fifth of the remaining 25% they're keeping themselves. Where they are outright giving up 75% of their territory and are sharing 5% so they only have 20% of their original holdings to themselves...and the other nation says "You're being inflexible and not compromising!"

You're literally telling them "your class can't see improvements for your engagement ...

I DO NOT SEE MORE COMPLEXITY AS AN IMPROVEMENT. I'm not sure how this is hard to understand.

I know you see it as one, but if you're going to put words in my mouth ("You're literally telling them"), then they have to be words from my perspective. If I was proposing making their Job more complex, from my perspective, THAT would be telling them "Your class can't be fun to play and you have to be punished with worse engagement and worse gameplay". Get it?

And I'm even compromising ON THAT TOO.

Your stance has pretty much been "leave one healer alone 0 changes" - that healer pretty much being WHM.

Meaning I'm giving up THREE HEALERS TO YOU AND YOUR COMPLEXITY HORRIBAD AND UNFUN GAMEPLAY!

A position I've even become malleable on since I've even proposed making WHM (or SCH if it was the "less changed one") more complicated TOO.

I don't want Aero 3 because IT WAS A GARBAGE ABILITY.

I don't want a dps kit rotation because IT'S A GARBAGE AND UNFUN GAMEPLAY (to me).

As to the third one...what? I've proposed - several times - WHM getting more Lily spenders, either for barriers like Benison or for a HoT like Regen or Medica 2. That one's you just being wrong.

So are you truly about no changes?

Honestly? No. Even my ideal situation would be WHM getting a party mitigation on a 1 min CD (ideally Plenary gaining that effect). So even my most extreme "no change" position actually entails minor changes.

LESS ideally, my Glare->empowered Holy/Holy->Dark Arts Misery/Assize GCD with a 30 sec CD are all me being malleable and offering changes. WHILE, again, giving up completely ALL THREE other healers as blood sacrifice/tribute to your god of complexity.

...which, once again, is me being far more malleable and flexible than literally any of you have been towards my position.