Comprehensive Guide to the Kaiten and 6.1 SAM rework

[Valence]

I think edge is just a lot more mindless than DA since you can use them a lot more freely, where DA was literally constrained to immediately come before the skill it needed to enhance most of the time, and on top of it it also enhanced a lot of oGCDs (like Carve and Spit), because it was HW/SB after all, which were oGCD wonderland.

But I don't disagree at all mind you. I don't even disagree with the general mind behind the thread/OP, they just delete things whenever something doesn't prove satisfying (?), but offer nothing in counterpart. It's been the literal litany of the battle system since the start of ShB. They just don't care anymore about RPG mechanics, they want to focus on hectic encounters ala XVI.

[Roxus]

I think that the effect of this is being overexaggerated, as well as the reason to even do it.

I'm assuming you're referring to something like getting an AST card, or burst windows, or openers, where you could push in an extra Shinten or a Seigan if you'd build up enough Kenki before your next Iai (and could guarantee the positional hits to do so).

And sure — but that is, broadly-speaking, fairly niche, and basically irrelevant outside of buff windows (ie, in a hypothetical "cursed comp" with no party support, it would make close-to-zero difference whether you performed Kaiten-budget gymnastics or not).

Meaning that, broadly-speaking, this factor added relatively-little to the Job experience, especially internally; outside burst windows, you would have a small eternity to build back up that pittance of Kenki before your next mandatory Meikyo, especially given the option to slush-up 5-10 Kenki by creeping your combo past a full Sen stack.

I'm sorry but I take issue with the way you are discussing this with other people, because from other threads I've seen you have only been throwing assumptions as fact while trying to downplay points. No, it wasn't exaggerated and there are clear reasons to push yourself below 20 at times. I'd have to think a bit more carefully when I'm not getting ready for bed but off the top of my head you have boss jumps, seigan correction, kb/jump cancels.

Unless I am severely-misremembering something, the difference between hitting every possible Seigan and not failed to gain you much beyond what random variance could.

That a very, very small portion of people could make good(?) use of it to try to bank more Kenki going into buffs, and/or squeeze a little more Kenki into buff windows, and/or gain a chunkier boost through a combination of buffstacking and crit variance, was surely satisfying for them — but in terms of what it broadly-added to the Job's Gauge system, I maintain that it was basically a gimmick, and maximising its usage was usually akin to a self-affixed merit-badge rather than any meaningful benefit.

In fact, the removal of Seigan and the shift to raw Kenki from Third Eye actually made proactive awareness of incoming damage both much more significant, and much more rewarding.

You are misremembering. If you could theoretically hit every Seigan you would gain roughly 16-18% over what Shinten would have gotten you.

You don't need to trivialize who utilized the mechanic to further your point. Seigan was never to save more resources for buffs, it was a reward for using Third Eye correctly throughout the course of the fight.

The Third Eye change is a straight increase comparing it to Seigan, but it essentially amounts to the same thing Kaiten changes did. That and if you weren't very good at using it before, now it is a clear loss.

I'm also going to address one thing I saw in another thread from you. Shinten was never this bad even during Hagakure days, exactly because Seigan existed and Kaiten was still there when you wanted to use Iaijutsu. Let's not forget Guren was 50 back then as well. If you question credibility you can look me up when I was actually playing if it matters. I never tried maintaining my positions but I was one of the first to invent SS tiers and have always tried to optimize for every fight.

[Alex1337]

Good post, took me 90 years to read it but good post.

SAM has felt atrocious to play since 6.1.

The truth about this and, you're right this isnt SAM exclusive; every job in 7.0 will have their big hits be Gcrits. Stardiver (lol), Communio, Hyosho, Phantom Rush, Xenoglossy, Resolution, Ahkn Morn, Tech step, Apex arrow, Afflatus.

This crusade to get the 2 min meta under control by trying to actively control RANDOM number generation is ludicrous. RNG is a part of MMOs, its something most people know they are signing up for when they play this genre of game. And the statement of "we wont make everything 2 min because that would be boring", please. It feels like they just arbitrarily made certain CDs NOT 2 min just because of that statement and in doing so have actually made jobs which have 40/45/90/110 cds just annoying because of the 2 min meta, who the hell feels good about popping riddle of wind 30 seconds before any buffs? Or using a lifesurge outside lance charge?

I'm under no illusion though, despite the tone deaf changes to SAM in 6.1 it performs relatively well and is still the best job to sink buffs into, but, irrespective of this perceived performance it is nowhere near as fun to play as it was before that time and, the MOST heartbreaking thing about the removal of Kaiten is that such a graceful animation was replaced, in effect, by Shinten which has a dreadful one. I actually unironically feel bad for the animator that made the Kaiten animation and its just... gone now. Like imagine they remove Midare and wer'e left with Hakaze.

It boils down to this and, looking at it purely from a cosmetic standpoint pressing Shinten DOES NOT FEEL GOOD, pressing Kaiten did.

[vetch]

This crusade to get the 2 min meta under control by trying to actively control RANDOM number generation is ludicrous. RNG is a part of MMOs, its something most people know they are signing up for when they play this genre of game.

Bodes really well for BRD too.

[ForsakenRoe]

and in doing so have actually made jobs which have 40/45/90/110 cds just annoying because of the 2 min meta, who the hell feels good about popping riddle of wind 30 seconds before any buffs? Or using a lifesurge outside lance charge?

The best part is, the reason for those 'weird timers' is BECAUSE of the 2min meta. If you had jank spellspeed/skillspeed, you'd get to your 'burst moment' slightly too soon or too late, being misaligned from 2min because of your gear (which, when you're in full crafted for prog, is not exactly fixable). For example, your Drill would come up slightly before Reassemble when it was 60s CD, and it felt jank to have to hold onto it for a GCD, to get it Reassembled. So they made Reassemble a weird number (55s) so that regardless of your speed, you'd always get a charge in time to use on the 3rd Drill every time

Just hilarious that they tried to fix a 'problem', and in doing so, have to fix the problems that arose from that fix being implemented. Next up is, as you say, the problem that 'oh damage variance in that tiny burst window is massive because of crits, so we need to make the hard hits all be guaranteed crits'. All of this, so that less skilled players can keep their buffs aligned easier. And despite the changes, said skill level of players not only can't keep buffs aligned, some of them forget to use the buffs at all. We're getting all these bad changes, for the sake of players who, in some cases, quite literally cannot perceive the benefits

Last thing in the rant, yes. Shinten is competing for 'absolute most dogwater animation in the game', on any job in the game right now. And I'm including how goofy Flying Sardine is. 'Onehanded lunging stab with katana' is rivalled only by 'slashing motion with a rapier made for thrusting motions' Zwerchau, and that one's double-goofy because it's named after a longsword technique. If you wanna keep the Shinten spam, at least let us change the animation (with a first-party system, none of that TOS breaking crap) to Seigan

[Shurrikhan]

who the hell feels good about popping riddle of wind 30 seconds before any buffs? Or using a lifesurge outside lance charge?

...If Lifesurge, for instance, was only ever meant to be popped inside of Lance Charge or Riddle of Wind inside of Riddle of Fire... they'd have that much less reason to be separate buttons.

I'm not exactly going to feel pained that every other hit of Riddle of Wind won't be affected by Riddle of Fire; we're balanced accordingly, after all.

No, I take that back -- it not only doesn't pain me that they're not the same CD; I prefer that they're not each just yet another 60s|120s CD.

I like that Life Surge is a 40s CD, so at least I see one use that's independent of Lance Charge. I prefer that I have something more to be hitting as a rhythmic mile-marker (Riddle of Wind) between Riddles of Fire.

[Post]

This is what I was trying to get at. I liked SB DRK, once they did some much needed changes to it in 4.3, even if the majority of players thought 'its trash no damage' (they were incorrect). Why were people mad about DA spam, but are seemingly fine with Edge spam?...

I think can answer that one. I didn't like StB DA spam compared to edge spam because of the doubled (relative) consumption of DA in StB when compared with its consumption in HW. Edge doesn't compete for any of the rest of DRK'S toolkit other than TBN, and it's much easier to hang onto 3kmp for that than working with DA was on the whole in StB.

Often in StB DRK you could get locked out of applying DA to an oGCD because they not only reworked the only GCD combo finisher that did not consume DA (Delirium), but applied the same flat DA bonus to a second hit in the combo (Syphon Strike), which you also HAD to press to generate MP given the constant drain from Darkside if you were between Blood Prices and Weapons.

Because of this, it actually exacerbated the floor of using MP for mitigation when they threw in TBN and more double weaving required so you didn't eat your DA on a flat 140 potency buff to your next GCD if it wasn't Hard Slash. Not to mention, TBN, DA and Dark Passenger all costed the same, so that was like 60% of your MP bar if you used two in conjunction, and saving that amount meant overcapping was not so hard to do when you were in Blood Price/Weapon.

DA went from "enhances your strong actions" to "applies 140 potency to probably your next action" and became more like a chore at best or a hindrance to using my enhanced dark mind or passenger at worst. It had the same treatment as AST cards got going into ShB, and the fewer amount of free time to use it (no scourge, no pre-syphon strike oGCD, more time spent in blood weapon with new Delirium) and less MP to work with (no Blood Price out of Grit, higher cost on all spells and TBN competing for MP now) just made it feel more like filler than a feature.

Not to say I don't miss DA. I just think it worked a lot better in HW when its cost was lower and it wasn't consumed by 2/3 of your basic GCDs. Maybe if they untethered DA consumption from one of the only actions always available to build MP, and used, I dunno, THE MP BAR for DRK's gauge in StB instead of Blood it woulda been received better. That's basically how it works today, except it has WAR fell cleaves slapped on there cuz everyone loves Fell Cleave. Bloodspiller could just have been a high MP cost big attack, maybe costing "up to" like Flare, or like Eventide does in PvP.

[Shurrikhan]

I think can answer that one. I didn't like StB DA spam compared to edge spam because of the doubled (relative) consumption of DA in StB when compared with its consumption in HW. Edge doesn't compete for any of the rest of DRK'S toolkit other than TBN, and it's much easier to hang onto 3kmp for that than working with DA was on the whole in StB.

Interesting. I preferred that filler-DA did compete with more non-filler MP expenditures than just TBN. I didn't particularly like that we had to double-weave in order to avoid spending DA on our next GCD, but I liked having the option of at-offensive-cost sustain via DA-AD (as it didn't add potency, only its capacity to heal) and having rotational milestones like CnS or potential DM/DD to retain MP margin for.

Granted, we could as easily support that even now by just... say... adjusting CnS slightly --splitting it truly into a three-hit attack, so that for each 1000 MP you have above 3k, it consumes 1k MP to augment one of its "threefold strikes" to deal (a third of an Edge's) additional damage-- and perhaps turning AD into a no-CD, pitiful-damage lowish-duration debuff that causes the DRK's strikes against its victims to heal that DRK for ~25% of damage dealt. Not that we particularly need to do so; just food for thought.

DA went from "enhances your strong actions" to "applies 140 potency to probably your next action"

Agreed. Losing the ability to avoid spending it made it feel far, far clunkier.

Granted, I'd prefer to have avoided the issue the altogether by making it a follow-up skill, almost as if every weaponskill had a shared one-step Continuation button that they could spend MP on. Each would have their own Dark Arts: [Conditional Name] action, complete with their own effect and animation (though quick, somewhat self-similar, and not overly flashy). Abilities, on the other hand, would simply turn into their second steps, again at optional MP cost.

Souleater: Does Souleater. Hit Dark Arts after: Appears to yoink the enemy's soul out, dealing an additional (60% of Edge's) potency of damage and healing for 100% of damage dealt. Damage and healing both increased by 1% per the lower of your or your target's %HP missing.

Carve and Spit: Strike 3 times, generating 600 MP each. Hit that same button again (for its "Dark Arts" effect), and you spend that 1800 MP and up to 3000 more atop it for some pretty massive damage.

Dark Mind: The normal effect. Hit it again to, say, heal for 30% of magical damage nullified over the last 5 seconds.

Not to say I don't miss DA. I just think it worked a lot better in HW when its cost was lower and it wasn't consumed by 2/3 of your basic GCDs.

Its relative cost was still pretty similar even in HW, tbf. It was 25% of maximum MP, as compared to... 30%. And, ofc, its impact on total potency was much lower in HW than it was in Shadowbringers (for EW, I would have to calculate again for Shadowbringer and the additions to Living Shadow). So... /shrug.

Maybe if they untethered DA consumption from one of the only actions always available to build MP, and used, I dunno, THE MP BAR for DRK's gauge in StB instead of Blood it woulda been received better. That's basically how it works today, except it has WAR fell cleaves slapped on there cuz everyone loves Fell Cleave. Bloodspiller could just have been a high MP cost big attack, maybe costing "up to" like Flare, or like Eventide does in PvP.

Sure, I guess. You'd then effectively have two separate abilities for 'DA for sustain' and 'filler DA for mere potency' and removed the latter half, giving that instead to Bloodspiller/Quietus (with an efficiency, and therefore priority, below that of Dark Passenger and Carve and Spit). I don't know whether I'd have preferred that, necessarily --as I kind of liked the fact that jobs would more noticeably ramp up back then-- but it'd be less clunky, yeah.

But then... that's also effectively just GCD-Edge, with the option to bring back a Darkrasia for our oGCD skills (that is, if tanks were ever again allowed to make trades between sustain and offense). /shrug

[Eorzean_username]

Shinten/Seigan digressions

You are misremembering. If you could theoretically hit every Seigan you would gain roughly 16-18% over what Shinten would have gotten you.

Can you translate this into an actual % Total Damage or % Total DPS difference over an X minute encounter, rather than just the difference between Shinten and Seigan in a vacuum?

And then compare "theoretical every Seigan" to "actual average number of Seigans per encounter from a skilled Samurai" ?

Then further break it down by "actual average number of Seigans used by, say, 75% of the entire Samurai player population (rather than just 95+ Savage parses)" ?

...I'm not trying to be a git — I'm trying to clarify why Seigan was seen as expendable from a development perspective.

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You don't need to trivialize who utilized the mechanic to further your point.

You're imagining an agenda that isn't there.

Pointing out that very few people really interacted with a mechanic in a meaningful way does not trivialise their existence — it's just pointing out that the broader relevance of the action was dubious at best.

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Seigan was never to save more resources for buffs, it was a reward for using Third Eye correctly throughout the course of the fight.

Yes, and it was a very underwhelming reward that most players could completely-ignore and never notice any tangible difference.

As well, you absolutely could use Seigan to carry more Kenki into buffs because you only needed to drop 15 instead of the full 25 from Shinten.

Obviously this as niche as any other micro-optimisation like that, but for example, you could hypothetically end up in a situation where spending 25 to avoid overcapping would then have a cascading effect of just-missing having enough gauge for another Shinten under buffs, whereas using Seigan to bleed instead would provide the extra bit you needed to catch the window.

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The Third Eye change is a straight increase comparing it to Seigan, but it essentially amounts to the same thing Kaiten changes did.

Yes, but that's a problem with Shinten and overall design, not the generation of Kenki itself.

ie: The Third Eye change to generate Gauge directly is "neutral", and not directly related in any way to the Gauge itself being poorly-utilised.

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That and if you weren't very good at using it before, now it is a clear loss.

Yes, but that was in fact exactly the point I was making.

Someone said Seigan was "skill expression", but removing Seigan could be argued to have actually increased the gap of "skill expression" by putting much more incentive on snagging (and weaving) as many Third Eye hits as possible.

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I'm also going to address one thing I saw in another thread from you. Shinten was never this bad even during Hagakure days, exactly because Seigan existed and Kaiten was still there when you wanted to use Iaijutsu. Let's not forget Guren was 50 back then as well.

Okay, but at no point have I ever claimed that the current state of Samurai is exactly equivalent to a prior state, and if it seems that way, it's a misinterpretation of my intent.

I've simply said that (in my opinion) Shinten has always been a pox upon the Samurai Job, that Shinten spam has always been a design issue, and that I think Shinten's design is and always has been the real problem / boogeyman afflicting the Kenki gauge.

That the issue has become more exaggerated now is obviously true, but what I was saying is that "it was always an issue, now it's just been magnified even further".

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If you question credibility you can look me up when I was actually playing if it matters. I never tried maintaining my positions but I was one of the first to invent SS tiers and have always tried to optimize for every fight.

I know some posters are obsessed with "street cred", but I don't personally think that you need to flash a license in order to disagree with me or present your opinion on any topic.

I don't personally care if you were World First DSR Samurai or you've only ever used Samurai in Expert Roulette, I'll consider whatever you have to say at face-value because I'm not laboring under the idea that skill at execution automatically translates to good design sense, nor vice-versa.

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No, it wasn't exaggerated and there are clear reasons to push yourself below 20 at times. I'd have to think a bit more carefully when I'm not getting ready for bed but off the top of my head you have boss jumps, seigan correction, kb/jump cancels.

I think you're just not understanding what I actually mean by "exaggerated" in this case.

I'm not saying "Kaiten never did anything productive for anyone, ever", I'm saying that what Kaiten added is being somewhat-overblown in retrospect, especially from a broader design perspective.

Unless a Job feature does literally nothing (which would be strange), there will always be situations in which it can actually be useful — I'm sure that someone, somewhere, somehow, found a productive use for 4.00 Lilies or the current Plunge CD reduction from Unmend.

Likewise, some segment of a Job's players will always find ways to push or squeeze as much as possible out of every option available to them, no matter how small. These players tend to appreciate small details or nuances that the broader playerbase is either oblivious to, or uninterested in.

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So I'm not arguing that Kaiten actually did or provided such refinements or nuances to more detail-oriented Samurai players.

What I'm saying is "exaggerated" is how significant the broader effect of that was on Samurai gameplay, in general, and for very likely "most" players approaching the Job.

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I think there's also some confusion that, just because I'm not on my knees daily, chanting to an idol of the Kaiten icon in my basement, I'm automatically advocating for or supporting the removal of Kaiten.

To clarify, then:

I think that the entire flow of Samurai and Iaijutsu was very clearly designed with the extra "beat" of Kaiten being part of it.

Transitioning from Sen generation straight to Iaijutsu feels "awkward", like when a video buffers wrong and suddenly skips a frame; Iaijutsu somehow feels too "blunt" and "naked" without the "prelude" of Kaiten setting it up.

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Furthermore, whether it was rational or not, spending 20 Kenki to empower Iaijutsu simply "felt good" to me from a play-experience perspective.

But then, I'm someone who also enjoyed HW Dark Arts and, in general, prefers spending Gauge on functional tools rather than direct Potency vomit, so I'm probably coming from a biased perspective here.

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Also, while this is technically completely off-topic, I can't resist mentioning how utterly naff circular Tenka feels, and how godsawful it looks with the Tenka animation glued into a circle.

...Actually, while I'm here, the drop in Iaijutsu potencies to now feel like slapping the target with a pool-noodle also completely-undermined the entire "slow, steady buildup → debilitating strike" that is inherently supposed to characterise the Samurai archetype and which XIV SAM previously captured (sans Shinten spam).

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...So what I'm actually trying to point out is not that I personally think the 6.10 SAM changes were good (because I do not), but that there were actual reasons behind the changes from a development perspective — it wasn't as arbitrary, impulsive, random, or [insult to developers's intelligence] as I keep seeing thrown-around here.

ie: Kaiten was specifically-targeted because, from a broader design evaluation, too many points added up against it, and too few in its favor.

Is designing by detached pro/con lists in an Excel spreadsheet shared with the local office intranet "healthy"?

Maybe not, but you can still see that there was a clear process involved in why Kaiten died and other actions didn't.

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That Kaiten has subsequently remained MIA, with radio-silence regarding it, is probably an indicator that the developers don't see the removal as having had serious repercussions, and may even consider the effect positive, based on their own overall data / evaluation.

This actually shouldn't be too surprising, when you consider that Samurai participation numbers remain quite high — in fact, even the most rabid Kaiten advocate around here continues to play Samurai.

Which is... Let's say that Starbucks removed an ingredient that you liked.

And every day, as you buy your morning coffee, you make sure to strongly-complain to your barista about how much you liked the flavor of that removed ingredient.

Meanwhile, up at Starbucks Galactic Headquarters on the moon, Starbucks Corporate doesn't hear your complaints to the barista — they just see that you keep spending the exact same money that you've always spent, and determine that changing the ingredient had no actual negative effect.

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From the developer perspective, the fact that everyone keeps playing Samurai even while some players complain about Kaiten means that the Kaiten change couldn't have been too bad, since there was no mass exodus from the Job.

In fact, the continued high play rates would probably be seen as reinforcement that they actually made a good choice.

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Is a philosophy of, "Well, it looks like no one quit, so it's probably fine", actually a good way to design?

Maybe not.

But from the designer perspective, who cares?

You're still buying the product, you're still playing the Job, and so are a lot of other people.

Why should they worry about it?

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Don't misinterpret this as me trying to invalidate your personal complaints about how your own gamefeel was genuinely damaged by removing Kaiten.

I don't think that you can possibly be "wrong" for making an honest claim about what you did or didn't like about a Job, and I don't personally think that's irrelevant feedback.

So I'm not trying to antagonise you — I'm trying to be blunt about why things happened, and why they are probably going to continue happening.

I think that refusing to understand why an action like Kaiten is seen as expendable under the current design philosophy is only going to cause you to become increasingly-frustrated over time, and then be blindsided by even more changes in the future.

[Shurrikhan]

I think you're just not understanding what I actually mean by "exaggerated" in this case.

I'm not saying "Kaiten never did anything productive for anyone, ever", I'm saying that what Kaiten added is being somewhat-overblown in retrospect, especially from a broader design perspective.

And I think discourse is getting confused on this particular tack. I'm not seeing many refuting that Kaiten did relatively little, noncontextually, in itself; rather, their interest seems to be on its outsized contribution towards a particular gestalt: Samurai's Kenki gauge and its usage, which was crippled almost irredeemably by losing that keystone component. It was a very simple mechanic that contextually did a lot of good.

(Yes, other losses had already hurt it badly, but losing that base margining, even if less noticeable after Yukikaze's being Slashing debuff being turned into further gauge generation, means there's virtually no baseline to build from anymore to make it anything more than a Shinten or Double-Shinten counter +/- the 10 gauge of a Gyoten or Third Eye.)

Kaiten was specifically-targeted because, from a broader design evaluation, too many points added up against it, and too few in its favor.

Which seems a problematic approach if not assessing what a given mechanic may contribute outside of its own internal nuances, etc., and addressing the shortfall that would be caused by the removal.

I think that refusing to understand why an action like Kaiten is seen as expendable under the current design philosophy is only going to cause you to become increasingly-frustrated over time, and then be blindsided by even more changes in the future.

And I think the devs refusing to understand why it wouldn't be considered nearly so expendable by their playerbase, within the context of their current design philosophy or otherwise, will only cause them to become increasingly frustrated over time, and then be "blindsided" by similar criticisms to further such changes in the future.

That the issue has become more exaggerated now is obviously true, but what I was saying is that "it was always an issue, now it's just been magnified even further".

Agreed. But, then, I think the typical Samurai player would expect that'd make it all the more urgent to address that. Yet that clearly hasn't been the thought among the devs.

in fact, even the most rabid Kaiten advocate around here continues to play Samurai.

I've played SAM all of twice since, after it having been a top 2 job for me from 6.0 to 6.1 and my most played job across 5.x.

Also, while this is technically completely off-topic, I can't resist mentioning how utterly naff circular Tenka feels, and how godsawful it looks with the Tenka animation glued into a circle.

...Actually, while I'm here, the drop in Iaijutsu potencies to now feel like slapping the target with a pool-noodle also completely-undermined the entire "slow, steady buildup → debilitating strike" that is inherently supposed to characterise the Samurai archetype and which XIV SAM previously captured (sans Shinten spam).

Aye.