Bring back Kaiten please

[Boblawblah]

*intercom noises*

paging the "Give me back my Kaiten" forum poster. Your meme's are needed!

Seriously, the ONE time he would be on-topic and he's nowhere to be seen

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Unpopular opinion, but I understand "why" they removed it and therefore don't blame them for that reason.

Unless I am wrong, there wasn't a single instance where you'd NOT use Kaiten before an Iaijutsu, not using it on one was basically a failstate and using it on old combo finishers as well, given the potency difference. This is different from buttons like old Dark Arts, Life Surge, Reassemble etc. where you did use instances of the skills you usually enhance as their unenhanced version, save for Carve and Spit, that small MP vs losing 350 potency was laughable.

So while we may have liked it, it was basically a soft-mandatory button press before every Higanbana / Tenka Gokken / Midare Setsugekka if you played seriously as not doing so was a fairly sizeable damage loss if you repeated it over time. So I can see why they dropped it out of the sky and called it Button Bloat, even if worse skills like Shoha II exist.

We need different Kenki spenders, but I feel like Kaiten wasn't it. What I do miss however is Hissatsu: Seigan instead of just gaining flat +10 Kenki on Third Eye.

[Deo14]

Unpopular opinion, but I understand "why" they removed it and therefore don't blame them for that reason.

Unless I am wrong, there wasn't a single instance where you'd NOT use Kaiten before an Iaijutsu, not using it on one was basically a failstate and using it on old combo finishers as well, given the potency difference. This is different from buttons like old Dark Arts, Life Surge, Reassemble etc. where you did use instances of the skills you usually enhance as their unenhanced version, save for Carve and Spit, that small MP vs losing 350 potency was laughable.

So while we may have liked it, it was basically a soft-mandatory button press before every Higanbana / Tenka Gokken / Midare Setsugekka if you played seriously as not doing so was a fairly sizeable damage loss if you repeated it over time. So I can see why they dropped it out of the sky and called it Button Bloat, even if worse skills like Shoha II exist.

We need different Kenki spenders, but I feel like Kaiten wasn't it. What I do miss however is Hissatsu: Seigan instead of just gaining flat +10 Kenki on Third Eye.

So what is your suggestion for different Kenki spender? Keep in mind that it always must have highest possible damage, no "deals half damage of shinten, but heals you" kind of deal.

You have Senei, which is basically swole Shinten on 120s CD. Then Shinten, which is lowest priority spender. So what do you suggest? Senei II, which deals higher damage than Shinten, lower than Senei, but on 60s CD? Great, now you have 3 essentially identical skills, what a waste of buttons.

Kaiten is one of few remaining ways how to make gauge interesting. From top of my head, I don't remember any gauge which needs some minimal value. You just pool most gauges, make sure you don't overcap it, and then use it in burst. Kenki was so unique because you were balancing both overcapping, and making sure you have enough for Kaiten. This was really unique mechanism in the game, and it got axed for what, some made up bullshit like action bloat - which is false, SAM has identical APM in burst, or because of some button bloat excuses, even though we have stuff like Shoha II. Maybe because it was "hard" for some? That is called skill curve. Even though it was pretty easy, it was still relevant, since it was distinguishing bad player from very bad player.

There just isn't any good reason, even if you believe that X before every Y is bad design, game has much more glaring issues, like healers doing 1111111111111111111111111111111, caster job which isn't a caster, and so on, yet they don't solve these problems, but for some reason, they're fine with gutting job which people were happy with, and then ignoring our feedback, which they specifically asked for.

Suprising the kenki problem hasn't been fixed since they removed Kaiten.

What's surprising about that? Kenki became yet another regulated gauge, following all of SE's norms and technical standards. 0-100, don't overcap it, pool it for burst, rinse and repeat.

[Zebraoracle]

So what is your suggestion for different Kenki spender? Keep in mind that it always must have highest possible damage, no "deals half damage of shinten, but heals you" kind of bullshit.

You have Senei, which is basically swole Shinten on 120s CD. Then Shinten, which is lowest priority spender. So what do you suggest? Senei II, which deals higher damage than Shinten, lower than Senei, but on 60s CD? Great, now you have 3 essentially identical skills, what a waste of buttons.

Kaiten is one of few remaining ways how to make gauge interesting. From top of my head, I don't remember any gauge which needs some minimal value. You just pool most gauges, make sure you don't overcap it, and then use it in burst. Kenki was so unique because you were balancing both overcapping, and making sure you have enough for Kaiten. This was really unique mechanism in the game, and it got axed for what, some made up bullshit like action bloat - which is false, SAM has identical APM in burst, or because of some button bloat excuses, even though we have shit like Shoha II. Maybe because it was "hard" for some? That is called skill curve. Even though it was pretty easy, it was still relevant, since it was distinguishing bad player from very bad player.

There just isn't any good reason, even if you believe that X before every Y is bad design, game has much more glaring issues, like healers doing 1111111111111111111111111111111, caster job which isn't a caster, and so on, yet they don't solve these problems, but for some reason, they're fine with gutting job which people were happy with, and then ignoring our feedback, which they specifically asked for.

I don't play SAM but man I'm upset for y'all. This sounds so stupid and unnecessary. Button bloat is such an awful excuse given there are other jobs that are far worse offenders than SAM.

#bringbackkaiten

[Brownondorf]

been a samurai main since it's release and i do not miss kaiten one bit...
In fact, current samurai is the most fun i've ever had playing it.

[Atelier-Bagur]

been a samurai main since it's release and i do not miss kaiten one bit...
In fact, current samurai is the most fun i've ever had playing it.

I respect this, but the fact that Kaiten made your Iaijutsu's 100% more cooler and was super satisfying to do is the reason why me and prolly many others who dont care for the neckbeard optimal rotations still cry for its removal. It's an outright removal of a unique function that played with the class fantasy.

I still enjoy SAM no matter what, but I would've still enjoyed it even more had they'd not remove that ability.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

So what is your suggestion for different Kenki spender? Keep in mind that it always must have highest possible damage, no "deals half damage of shinten, but heals you" kind of bullshit.[...]

Kaiten itself, which I don't consider bad game design by default given I liked Dark Arts on DRK, the problem was essentially it was just so freely accessible that it was basically "the other Shinten but only before you use Iaijutsu, which you do all the time". If it had a short CD (like 15-20s) and/or had other benefits than "enhances weaponskill by x% damage" to make it stand out from Shinten, like "if you used it on X the next 3-5 weaponskills generate Z amounts of extra Kenki" or something else crazy it could have more varied application than just doing +50% on Iaijutsu to get intended damage.

So what other spenders could there be? Depends, generally having skills / resources of a job interacting with each other is a good way to go about it - frankly we had Meikyo Shisui never be a Kenki spender (however it WAS a TP-spender in an iteration of Stormblood PvP) and Shoha stacks also were independent from that resource when it got introduced. Every buff relevant to SAM also has been as free as ever when it got released (dmg up, speed up) and at pretty long durations, so there is no rattling on that door either. Conditional spenders like Seigan were a favourite of mine, I also think having Guren / Senei cost the same Kenki as Shinten is whack but that one is personal.

Drawing inspirations from Stormblood Dark Knight to understand what it meant, MP + Blood had various elements of interplay like TBN costing MP but generating Blood, Quietus costing Blood but generating MP, Delirium costing Blood but refunding the MP you used on TBN prior, etc. - there could be 100% more than just Shinten/Kyuten and Kaiten and there could have been ways to make Kaiten more interactive than being the glorified Iaijutsu combo. Im not defending the removal, I am only playing devil's advocate that I can understand why they came to the conclusion about Kaiten, even if it went against our feedback.

I just personally don't miss it in the state as it was, that's all.

[Deo14]

Kaiten itself, which I don't consider bad game design by default given I liked Dark Arts on DRK, the problem was essentially it was just so freely accessible that it was basically "the other Shinten but only before you use Iaijutsu, which you do all the time". If it had a short CD (like 15-20s) and/or had other benefits than "enhances weaponskill by x% damage" to make it stand out from Shinten, like "if you used it on X the next 3-5 weaponskills generate Z amounts of extra Kenki" or something else crazy it could have more varied application than just doing +50% on Iaijutsu to get intended damage.

So what other spenders could there be? Depends, generally having skills / resources of a job interacting with each other is a good way to go about it - frankly we had Meikyo Shisui never be a Kenki spender (however it WAS a TP-spender in an iteration of Stormblood PvP) and Shoha stacks also were independent from that resource when it got introduced. Every buff relevant to SAM also has been as free as ever when it got released (dmg up, speed up) and at pretty long durations, so there is no rattling on that door either. Conditional spenders like Seigan were a favourite of mine, I also think having Guren / Senei cost the same Kenki as Shinten is whack but that one is personal.

Drawing inspirations from Stormblood Dark Knight to understand what it meant, MP + Blood had various elements of interplay like TBN costing MP but generating Blood, Quietus costing Blood but generating MP, Delirium costing Blood but refunding the MP you used on TBN prior, etc. - there could be 100% more than just Shinten/Kyuten and Kaiten and there could have been ways to make Kaiten more interactive than being the glorified Iaijutsu combo. Im not defending the removal, I am only playing devil's advocate that I can understand why they came to the conclusion about Kaiten, even if it went against our feedback.

I just personally don't miss it in the state as it was, that's all.

I haven't played in SB, but those DRK mechs seems somewhat more complex/involved compared to today's standards - do you believe they realistically have some chance of returning? Not those specific you listed, but new SAM mechs with similar spirit, something like spending Kenki to upkeep current 2 buffs or similar, more involved mechs. Because this seems more complex and convoluted, and current direction goes in exact opposite way. Which is why I think Kaiten was something not necessarily best, but something that actually did follow this more simplistic approach, while making Kenki more interesting than most gauges.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

At least with Kaiten and their Hissatsus larger kenki cost back in ShB, I felt I had to be mindful with my Shintens to have enough to dump Senei & 2 Kaitens at the looping reopeners. EW launch reduced the cost but it still had Kaiten so hey uh, I still had to be mindful, just slightly less. Nowaday it's just Shinone Shintwo Shinthree Shinfour Shinfive Shinsix Shinseven Shineight Shinnine Shinten lmfao. Ikishoten guarantees you'll able to pump off Senei it takes another level of unawareness to not have it ready.

Their reasoning behind its removal imho doesn't makes any sense at all. If they want to reduce the bloat then why Shoha II exist; why can't Ikishoten be merged with Ougi Namikiri; why can't Senei & Guren combined into full damage at first target with AoE damage fall off?

... Yeah, no. I've dropped SAM even though I've been only a casual enjoyer of the job from beginning---it was fun to play it until they take that element away.

Maybe next thing they'll do is to remove the gauge and give Shinten its own short cooldown with charges lmao. "Let the game play it for you" as some people says.

[Zebraoracle]

At least with Kaiten and their Hissatsus larger kenki cost back in ShB, I felt I had to be mindful with my Shintens to have enough to dump Senei & 2 Kaitens at the looping reopeners. EW launch reduced the cost but it still had Kaiten so hey uh, I still had to be mindful, just slightly less. Nowaday it's just Shinone Shintwo Shinthree Shinfour Shinfive Shinsix Shinseven Shineight Shinnine Shinten lmfao. Ikishoten guarantees you'll able to pump off Senei it takes another level of unawareness to not have it ready.

Their reasoning behind its removal imho doesn't makes any sense at all. If they want to reduce the bloat then why Shoha II exist; why can't Ikishoten be merged with Ougi Namikiri; why can't Senei & Guren combined into full damage at first target with AoE damage fall off?

... Yeah, no. I've dropped SAM even though I've been only a casual enjoyer of the job from beginning---it was fun to play it until they take that element away.

If they want to remove button bloat, why do Cure 1, Benefic, and Physick not become their upgrades? Why do healers have so many tools they barely have to make use of? Why does SMN Physick not scale properly/not become a Phoenix spell/even exist? Why does Scathe exist?