Crystalline Conflict Tier List (with deep maths!)

[MNKabuser]

Yes, but what does that have to do with anything, though? I tend to play more casual matches than ranked ones because I have limited time. In Season 1, I made a mistake by switching from Behemoth to Mateus, and I ended up losing my Platinum rank just two weeks before it ended. Besides, you seem to be focusing only on one criticism of what the original poster said, even though they already admitted their mistake. Apart from that, the tier list is pretty accurate, like most tier lists are. However, since it's subjective, different people will have different opinions based on their personal biases and experiences. So, we shouldn't just dismiss this tier list outright. I appreciate the constructive criticism you provided to the original poster, though, we should have more tierlist like this to gauge the community feelings towards a job, to get the feel what feels strong. Admittedly I feel all jobs can perform well

You said "bunch of bronz players", but just about everyone disagreeing with the list has ranked top 30 or top 10 and the furthest you made it is Platinum from what you're saying. Please don't say stuff like that for no reason.
As for the tier list, no it's horribly inaccurate, as everyone will keep saying.
I've heard that it's "opinion based", but when you bring math into it, you aren't trying to just create an opinion you're trying to classify "facts", see if I say 2+2=4 and I did the math for it, it's not my opinion that 2+2=4 it just is 4, and that's what the creator of the list is basically saying with it.

[MNKabuser]

If adding tooltips is so braindead and BRD burst is so insane, then why doesn't everyone just go pick up all these free kills with this crazy burst and overwhelming party value?

You're literally just proving their point about what they said in the 2nd thing you replied to.
BRD burst is so valuable because they can combo silence with it and other jobs can help to instantly kill the picks for it before the status effect drops (provided that the target has already used purify and can be CCd with no resistance), this is why NIN+BRD in LP is a very common 2 picks to bring (though there is other combos as well) because NIN and BRD can 100-0 anyone within a silence. Obviously strats like that are rarer in Solo Q because there's no voice comms, but you can still callout who you silence with a Quickchat/Target Marker macro, or even just silencing the person everyone is hitting so they can't recupe or guard through the bursts and die faster. You heavily underestimate the potential of BRD.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

You're literally just proving their point about what they said in the 2nd thing you replied to.
BRD burst is so valuable because they can combo silence with it and other jobs can help to instantly kill the picks for it before the status effect drops (provided that the target has already used purify and can be CCd with no resistance), this is why NIN+BRD in LP is a very common 2 picks to bring (though there is other combos as well) because NIN and BRD can 100-0 anyone within a silence. Obviously strats like that are rarer in Solo Q because there's no voice comms, but you can still callout who you silence with a Quickchat/Target Marker macro, or even just silencing the person everyone is hitting so they can't recupe or guard through the bursts and die faster. You heavily underestimate the potential of BRD.

How is timing crowd control with Nocturne different from timing crowd control with literally anyone else? I've had the silence discussion before, but even then--why isn't everyone crying bloody murder about White Shift Resolution? It does quadruple the damage that Nocturne ever did, retains its 25y range, and now lays down the same duration silence but in an AoE, all on the exact same cooldown.

I do very much agree with what Aisi said about BRD's good burst availability--I think THAT'S its real strength. Having access to your burst almost on demand with very little immediate setup is very valuable. But let's not pretend that the number available is particularly high. Saying that you can 100-0 anyone when Seiton does literally 50% of the work is a bit odd, isn't it? And saying that crowd control secures kills when someone has no purify is borderline unnecessary, I think I could've figured that one out.

Just read everything you've written there. It's like 4 instances of "BRD can help its team kill people", not "BRD can kill people." It's not a burst powerhouse one-shot wonder, it's good at helping secure kills that your team couldn't otherwise complete. Does that mean it should be rated highly when comparing single-target burst capability? If I press my entire kit to include LB and I cannot solo kill a SGE/BLM if they press Recuperate even one (1) time, do I say that I'm one of the heaviest bursters in the game? I'd say no, but if you want to say yes then feel free.

[MNKabuser]

How is timing crowd control with Nocturne different from timing crowd control with literally anyone else? I've had the silence discussion before, but even then--why isn't everyone crying bloody murder about White Shift Resolution? It does quadruple the damage that Nocturne ever did, retains its 25y range, and now lays down the same duration silence but in an AoE, all on the exact same cooldown.

RDM and BRD have the same length of silence yes, but BRD can weave it during its burst while RDM silence shares recast with its GCDs and therefor cannot weave it while bursting.

Let's talk about NIN+BRD then.
BRD silence has a 20sec cooldown, no? Mug and Assassinate ALSO have 20sec cooldowns, so for every silence NIN can use Mug (buffing the BRDs burst ontop of it btw) and then do a 19.8k Assassinate (13.2k+6.6k if they have bunshin stacks active for it) into a 17.6k Hyosho in 2sec (the silence duration) adding up to 37.4k damage (39.4k I guess if you really wanna count Mug's 2k LOL) from just the NIN using those 2 alone, not counting the BRD's burst which would add the total damage up much further. If you try to do this same thing with RDM silence, it won't have the same effect because RDM can't just weave its silence between GCDs, Resolution shares recast with its GCDs.

In CC, having even 1 extra number of advantage matters a lot (unless your teams just that bad), so BRD being able to setup KOs like it can makes it very useful, because if that KO setup works then you immediately just took out a number from the enemy side and likely gain numbers advantage because of it. Similarly to MNK LB in a way, except MNK LB being uncleansable and MNK can solo KO people if it wants to, or just use its LB as CC to setup a quick KO for their team; however BRD can silence every 20sec while MNK can only LB every 75sec (not counting if it gains gauge from BRD LB or map things like the coins on Clocktown or feathers on C9/btw don't play MNK on C9 pls it's very bad for you), Purify being 30sec CD with 5sec immunity when used means BRD gets a full 25sec window to use silence on the people who use Purify, setting up KOs for their team. That is why BRD is valuable, and maths aren't going to arrive you to that conclusion because it's a situational kit advantage.

Speaking of MNK btw, I don't know if you slapped its moves next to eachother just for numbers case and didn't care about the correct order, because the combo you listed in the googledoc anyone can just prevent from being done.
There's many different orders of MNK LB combo or burst combos, and that one ain't it.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

Let's talk about NIN+BRD then.

I don't doubt that NIN and BRD have great synergy, but "BRD has really great burst" is kind of a hard sell when you spent the whole paragraph talking about how much it enables NIN. "BRD is nice to its friends" is what I got out of that, and I don't think anyone ever disagreed on that point. My point was never that BRD can't set up or help secure kills. The point was that BRD never has the option of solo killing anyone, and that's why it's rated relatively low in single-target burst.

There are other jobs that do more damage and contribute just as much if not more crowd control on a similarly regular basis; there are other jobs that contribute partywide buffs, often with greater value attached. Sure BRD has a full uptime 5% buff, but how valuable is that really when you could have an entire other job with much greater overall output instead? If I gave you the sole task of deleting one person every fight to create that man advantage, would you rather have a BRD+NIN or a MNK+NIN? The only thing that BRD really truly does uniquely is its LB battery effect, and I bet none of you even know exactly how much LB that gives. It's not written anywhere (because SE seems to hate explaining their game), and I'm pretty sure nobody has bothered to test it except us.

And again, saying that crowd control is valuable because Purify is fundamentally insufficient isn't exactly an argument that limits itself to Silent Nocturne.

At the end of the day, it's a win-more job that is almost entirely reliant on its team to accomplish anything. Its strength is in the on-demand flexibility of its burst, but that burst still has to placed with exceeding care that isn't demanded of other jobs--at least not to the same extent. There are no miracles that a BRD can pull out of a hat like a NIN or SAM or MNK or MCH or SMN or etc can. "Win-more value engine that enables picks with good teammates" isn't the most flattering A+ tier description of job if I've ever seen one.

If the monk combo is wrong I will gladly take your input in correcting it. Not sure how it's a freely available option to "just don't get hit kekw", between Six-sided Star and Enlightenment/Meteodrive, but maybe you know something I don't. Remember that we're mathing for theoretical maximums sans counterplay, because that's what we can control for and calculate.

Speaking of monks and LB charging, we were doing some additional testing and I'm not sure if it's a duel-specific thing, but MNK LB seems to be bugged, wanted to pull your ear on that one real quick. Every Meteodrive that we used did 3 ticks of 4k damage during the animation, and then a last hit of 12k--regardless of whether the Meteodrive was used against Guard or not. The 3 ticks of 4k also were not reflected at all in the battle log in either situation. I'm pretty sure that it's supposed to only award a bonus 12k damage if you hit an ungarded target, so unless it's counting its own de-Guarding, I don't think it's behaving as intended. If that IS the intended interaction, it's pretty weird that a) it doesn't show up in battle log, and b) the tooltip doesn't just say "strips guard and deals 24k damage".

[Sinstrel]

Single-target Burst
1 GCD single target burst (henceforth STB) will be graded based on the highest possible burst with up to 3 oGCD’s, with LB’s being eligible for the GCD slot. No bonus damage will be counted from possible AoE. Hard crowd control inherent to the combo will allow an additional GCD to be counted. Indeterminate/repeatable values and DoTs will be counted for a nominal 3 procs. SAM and NIN will each be awarded a baseline of 1 point due to their execution-type LBs.

AoE Burst
1 GCD AoE burst (henceforth AoE) will be graded based on possible total potency on 3 targets, with up to 3 oGCD’s. No bonus damage will be counted from weaving in single-target-only abilities. The other rules from STB also apply.

Mobility
Mobility will be graded based on distance (in yalms) available per minute, with a half value being applied on mobility that is only valid on one type of target (ally/enemy), and a double value being applied for mobility that requires no target. “Piggybacking” on your target’s movement will not be counted.

Crowd Control
Crowd control will be graded on seconds of available crowd control in one minute, with a half value applied for “soft” crowd control (defined as buttons other than Purify are still available), a double value applied for uncleansable crowd control, and a triple value applied for uncleansable and unblockable crowd control. Seconds of AoE crowd control will be counted on a nominal 3 targets affected. Knockback and draw-in effects will be converted on the basis of 5y per second.

Defense
Defense will be graded based on total available shield value, total available healing, and/or best effective HP increase available within a single cooldown cycle. AoE mitigation/healing will be counted on a nominal 3 targets affected. Indeterminate/repeatable values and regens will be counted for a nominal 3 procs. Recuperate and Guard will not be counted. PLD, DRK, SGE, and DRG will each be awarded a baseline of 1 additional point due to their invulnerability LBs. AST, MNK, BRD, MCH, and DNC will each be awarded a baseline of 1 additional point due to their indeterminate values.

I do believe MNK should be higher up in every single category you measured, and put into a league of its own (SS teir). It has a 100 to 0 combo that is very easy to execute and on a short cooldown (think it was slightly nerfed to be a 100 to 5% combo now on squishies, so you can't play by yourself anymore. Need at least one other team mate to accidentally hit the same target as you) so max STB. The phantom rush + riddle bomb is also great AoE pressure, I do think that part is correct in your diagram. The MOB rank I can agree with, but CC should be higher as it can pretty much remove a player from the game for 4-6 seconds with its CC that is mostly unpurifiable (knockback can't be immuned other than predicted with guard, and LB stuns for 2-3 seconds through guard (if it doesn't outright kill you giving an even longer 10 second CC death). It can stun enemies, remove guard, and knock players off objective/crystal during overtime. There isn't a single job in the game that can do all 3 of those things in the same kit. DEF should be a lot higher as well. 3 shields on self and ally, in addition to a 0 - 100% "bring back to life" heal with riddle of earth that also AoEs everyone on an extremely short cooldown for how powerful it is.

I also think SCH should be in F tier, putting it as high as BRD doesn't seem right with how weak its kit is. BRD at least can put some pressure and escape some setups. SCH is just a sitting duck and relies heavily on player skill rather than the kit itself (you escape set-ups by predicting them and not being positioned anywhere near where they yare about to happen)

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

So while my peers here have mostly said what needed to be said, even though I don't 100% qualify, three points I'd like to raise.

1.) 2-GCD burst is definitely something to consider, especially on jobs with accelerated GCD timers (MNK, SAM, NIN). This is debatable though on the context.

2.) Sustained / pressure damage not being a category is wild to me, given certain jobs like GNB with Cartridge skills exist. Or DRK if given opportunity, which isnt very often in higher ranks, but it is there.
ADDENDUM: I see pressure damage as something useful to force resources out of the enemy or potentially force them to disengage, which can end up having a peeling effect for a teammate. Even though overall lethality of bursts is up, having greater sustained damage than a 123 combo for 3000-5000 is neat to have.

3.) Arguably the most controversial, I think it would make more sense to split GNB's tiering into GNB-Tank, GNB-Heal and GNB-Dps as the three have vastly different output potential. You are basically able to pick and even hotswap between three similar jobs but with different core strengths.


Will probably revisit the thread again. Do you mind if I, as unqualified as I might be, consider making my own tierlist? I may not be a great player yet, but sharing viewpoints is interesting.

[Nanne]

I agree with jobs like Reaper and Dragoon being at the top but I think rest of the list would be shuffled around more

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

Will probably revisit the thread again. Do you mind if I, as unqualified as I might be, consider making my own tierlist? I may not be a great player yet, but sharing viewpoints is interesting.

I've never been here to gatekeep anyone out of their own opinions, so tier away to your heart's content. The link to the radar graph generator I used is buried somewhere in this thread too, if you wanted that.

1. A lot of jobs already have 2 GCD's counted because of the allowance we made for hard crowd control

2. Sustained damage has been exhaustively addressed in this thread. The impact of DPS is impossible to calculate and therefore impossible to fairly rank. Too many factors are in play (to include map selection, for example) and there isn't a good way to implement equal controls for all of them. Even if we take theoretical "striking dummy" maximums, the calculus for available damage in a minute is drastically different if you save even one or two buttons for burst windows vs dumping everything on cooldown for max sustained damage. If people are having issues with the order that we're putting burst combos in, imagine the uproar for DPS rotations. I extend to you the same offer as I did to everyone else: figure out a fair and quantifiable system for measuring it, and I'll gladly implement it.

3. GNB as 3 graphs has been suggested, yes

I do believe MNK should be higher up in every single category you measured, and put into a league of its own (SS teir).

I also think SCH should be in F tier, putting it as high as BRD doesn't seem right with how weak its kit is.

Everything you said about MNK has already been considered and controlled for. It's there in plain writing in the rubric breakdown. The damage numbers are the damage numbers, if I break the rules to give MNK a higher grade than it actually scored then there's no point in this exercise. Crowd control available in a minute is the same way, and we've already counted Meteodrive on a triple value due to it being unblockable/uncleansable. The Thunderclap shields don't exactly add up to millions of value, and MNK was already awarded a free point in DEF just for Riddle of Earth existing.

SCH is Value Engine The Job, and suffers from many of the same problems as BRD--ie, it requires win-more conditions to really operate and breathe. Hate to break it to you, but if we start awarding points for buffing and sustained damage, SCH is likely to gain more grade out of it than BRD.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

-snip-

1 + 3, splendid consider that resolved on my end.

On #2, this may be a spitball idea but to use a system as a baseline I'd suggest the 15s / 5-6 GCD lineup as a measurement.

• 15s is the duration of Biolysis, which if spread does a lot of continuous damage, which is the foundation of why I suggest it in the first place.
• 15s is 5 x 500 MP ticks which equals to 1 Recuperate (i.e. 15000 HP)
• 15s is the shortest time before certain jobs come back for their burst timers again or certain tools recover (like Superflare)
• Using GNB as a comparison, Cartridge combo can be initiated every 15s, half of the time is covered after already using the entire combo (so you'd 123 after or before and have a Burst Strike ready)

These are some suggestions / reasons for why this could matter. HOWEVER, to not throw in actual burst material into the mix:

• It should only take into account skills that are not part of the core bursts. In case of Gunbreaker, this means it should not include "Double Down" or "Blasting Zone" for instance, as they are part of the 20s Burst from it
• If skills can be held onto like a resource and possibly multiple stacks, they should only count towards the sustained damage if the resource otherwise is still available for the burst, (again, GNB + Burst Strike)

Where it would actually get difficult to quantify that is a job like Dark Knight which has theoretically infinite consistency, if snowballing continues as such, given how Shadowbringer -> Bloodspiller works. Would probably need to use average HP values in sane levels (40000HP) as a baseline for how hard Bloodspiller hits for instance to make a realistic sustained damage metric for it.

Closing point - in a group fight sustained damage will matter less for a duration of 15s and will be more like softening up the opponent before bursting hard, which will prompt people to exit combat when available. The long term sustained damage will likely make more sense in drawn-out encounters with 1-2 players of each side being in their own mini brawl sort of, which is more difficult on maps like Cloud Nine but more frequently available on the other three maps. Is doing those mini brawls ideal? No, not at all. Do they happen? You bet and it would definitely help to know what jobs might be good at drawn out fights or picking fights on a flank, like Reaper and Gunbreaker for instance.