The devs arent your friends. Stop pretending everyone is wrong and the devs are right

[Ranaku]

That's all.

Fact is that there is no universal right or wrong, lol. What is a flaw for you is maybe something great for someone else. And that is fine, not everyone has to enjoy the same things.

And i believe none of the players is looking at the devs as their actual friends. More like admiration for a company that produces a kinda decent product it seems, judging from the popularity of the game, and the open communication which most other gaming companies lack entirely. I mean look at Blizzard recently again, they said OW2 PvE was right around the corner right to the end to just cancel it. The reason why people love Yoshi P. is cause of the open communication and his background as a fellow gamer, which is kinda the opposite of the standard in the gaming industry, where everyone in the management ranks never played a game in their entire life it seems.

I feel like you are unhappy that other people are happy about the product they receive, which is their right. Same as it is your right to be unhappy about the game.

[IkaraGreydancer]

That's all.

How often do we see people here actually express that the devs are always right? This just seems like made up headcanon being used to try n prove a certain group of people are correct.

I find it odd that folks who dislike many aspects of the game are the ones pulling these cards but the other side rarely does this (as far as these forums go). Devs aren't our friends nor are fellow forum folks so if we applied your line of thinking full sale no one is always right, yes including folks that have issue with the game.
So once again we have a circular thread with no point...

[Aword3213]

Yoshi p has said before that the silent always leave first.
This is dumb, people who complain are the most passionate players of all. they want the game to be better, simple as that.

I would like to speak with your manager.

[Mr_Gyactus]

Any MMO I've played the retention has been poor tbh.

You can be even more generic. EVERYTHING soon or later becomes boring: a food, hobbies, a friend, even your wife/husband.
Why a particular game should be different?

"go and play something else if you feel burned out" is common sense, some player returns when there is a new expansion play it and then quit until the next expansion, some quit ff14 forever, or perhaps they quit videogames altogether.

[DiaDeem]

The main issue with the complaints in the forums is that they tend to be one of the following:

- Devs are Lazy: No they aren't. They work their full shift and go about it according to a schedule probably prepared by their manager. Nobody here knows what that schedule looks like.
- Devs are clueless/Devs don't listen: Which usually means "They didn't change THIS ONE THING I personally don't like"
- Devs aren't using resources right: Nobody here knows what resources are spent where. Every single post using that argument is complete speculation, and has no real value in a serious discussion.

It's not about devs being our friends, it's about people pretending they know the devs, how they work, and then throwing tantrums because their personal wishes aren't being fulfilled, which doesn't help anyone because it further encourages the devs to stay away from this gods forsaken place. There are definitely discussions to be had, like Healer design, stuff about housing, and a few other things. Sadly, most of the posts aren't about discussing these topics like adults, and are just Gaius or whomever else posting angry useless antagonizing garbage.

[Kes13a]

The main issue with the complaints in the forums is that they tend to be one of the following:

- Devs are Lazy: No they aren't. They work their full shift and go about it according to a schedule probably prepared by their manager. Nobody here knows what that schedule looks like.
- Devs are clueless/Devs don't listen: Which usually means "They didn't change THIS ONE THING I personally don't like"
- Devs aren't using resources right: Nobody here knows what resources are spent where. Every single post using that argument is complete speculation, and has no real value in a serious discussion.

It's not about devs being our friends, it's about people pretending they know the devs, how they work, and then throwing tantrums because their personal wishes aren't being fulfilled, which doesn't help anyone because it further encourages the devs to stay away from this god's forsaken place. There's a definitely discussions to be had, like Healer design, stuff about housing, and a few other things. Sadly, most of the posts aren't about discussing these topics like adults, and are just Gaius or whomever else posting angry useless antagonizing garbage.

I posted in another thread ages ago about how people are generally clueless. everyone complaining about the devs usually seem to think they operate in a vaccuum with zero direction from anyone. I have never seen any development team work like that, and I doubt SE is any different, they develop what they are told to develop, they follow schedules, so they can meet release dates. developers seem to be easy targets because they are the grunts on the front line, but everything they do, goes past higher ups, for direction, approving their output etc. they would not have the bandwidth to spend time on the forums on company time unless directed to do so. and I cant imagine ANY of them being dumb enough to spend personal time on the forums...

the devs are not generally the people complaints, comments etc need to be directed to since they cannot change the game without approval.. people need to set their sights higher for change and blame if they do not like something.

[DragonFlyy]

That's all.

I disagree with the devs on some things, but saying they aren't right is actually dumb. They made this game, so from their perspective they are right. We may not agree with them, but they are still right about how to make their game.

[Jojoya]

Statistics are the single most powerful tool game developers have at their disposal - they paint an infinitely more accurate picture than player feedback ever could. Every large enough game developer has literal terrabytes worth of player data, trends, content participation, etc to base all their decisions on. They literally know the playerbase of their game better than the playerbase ever could.

Yet statistics lack a crucial piece of information:

What was the player motivation for participating (or not)?

Example: For Mists of Pandaria, the WoW devs added a legendary cloak quest line. Different parts required different content to be done.

Part 1 - Grind certain open world mobs to earn reputation

Part 2 - Grind Valor Points through the usual methods; kill enemy faction NPCs to earn reputation; earn victories in 2 specific battlegrounds; kill a specific elite enemy NPC

Part 3 - participate in a specific raid (any difficulty) to get item drops; grind specific open world NPCs to earn reputation; complete a solo scenario; kill an open world boss; return to the raid to kill bosses for more item drops

Part 4 - complete a role specific solo challenge - legendary cloak is earned in its final form.

Your statistics tell you that hundreds of thousands (perhaps even a couple of million) of players completed all the steps and earned the cloak. What those statistics don't tell is if they enjoyed each content type woven into the questline, or if the player only did them because they either wanted to own the cloak to get access to a specific world boss released late in the expansion or because they were under threat of being removed from their raid team (and possibly their guild) if they didn't have the cloak.

Statistics alone are not a good way to judge what players really want. Many times, players are only doing the content because a specific reward they need or highly desire is gated behind the content and it can't be obtained otherwise. That is why feedback is also important - it can give context to what is shown in the statistics.

[Voltyblast]

Just like a lot of people's criticism isn't constructive, sometimes the responses people have to it aren't either, unfortunately.

You can disagree with one's opinion, but you should never be rude about it. Yet you say something negative, you're a bad person.
Not uncommon though, this happens everywhere. It is the whole reason why I stopped socializing in this game years ago, after all. Not worth the hassle.

That is much too simple of a response and should find an answer with more depth about why the story was alright, rather than strictly saying "wrong". Just not useful to the debate otherwise.

TL;DR I don't like a character, this person does, I said why I don't like it, they said I'm wrong for disliking for that reason, and I said "so? I still don't like it" despite their attempts and whipping out the usual "i DoN't CaRe", which makes absolutely no sense considering they made their most damn to talk me down to "like him". It turned from a gaslighting to a proper attack on my opinion and that's not right.

I always said that you're totally fine to like something that others dislike. I hate a lot of games people love, but I will never go attack them for that. Because I don't care, in the truest of senses.
But if it's me, then it's suddenly morally and legitimately right to attack me because I dislike your precious game or character, or story. Sure, whatever.

That is a difficult situation, because people in dungeons are strangers and don't know if you are a nice person or not, so first impressions make a big impact here and how you word it can make a big difference. Obviously, you need them to do the aoe or alternatively heal through it. This and the rest of the examples aren't relevant to discussing feedback for developers though.

There's no difficulty here: I was a healer, I was dying constantly, unable to heal everyone because tank did zero aggro, we wiped once or twice at the very least in a 30+ dungeon. All I asked, ALL THAT I EVER WANTED FROM THE ONE PULLING THE AGGRO, was to pull aggro. And I was the one blamed for chilling out. Only because I kindly asked the tank to press one button that they weren't pressing.

I don't see what's difficult to see here. Except the tank's inability to accept criticism about his job. And the whole point of this post is "You can say something critical without being rude about it."
I wasn't rude about it yet here I was being blamed. This brings us back to the point of the post, where "stop pretending everyone is wrong and the devs are right", as people believe that nobody's criticism is correct except for the devs.
There is a connection, even if small.

I don't think most parties would have done that, but people were more rude in ARR and HW because the game hadn't necessarily attracted the casual players it now has and the rules were not as vague.

People in ARR were more chill than today.

Besides the housing and Castrum/praetorium scenarios, which did happen in ARR, almost every other example - and others that I haven't mentioned - happened throughout HW up until now, and I could probably name more examples as well - like how in HW I was death threatened to "die in a fire" because I just said that I don't like raiding, even though I did coil but apparently "that's not enough!".

Still, back in ARR nobody cared if you disliked the story, and generally were more chill about negativity because "Hey, the game was just remade, let's give them the benefit of the doubt" despite the many questionable choices (chocobo dyeing being one of the biggest conundrums ever).
But I also saw giving their two cents about it and people either disagreed or agreed. It was very human back then and it's why I loved ARR.

But I just so happened to have met people who already had the mindset of "shut up and don't buy it" even back then, but ARR was definitely the most chill community I ever met in a mmo. HW and onward is where things changed entirely. Still regret not quitting on HW to this day because of that...

Everything is about perception. Unfortunately, in ARR the game had a lot of intricate things that caused people to attack you for doing it wrong, when you weren't. For example, I was told to face my shield at the enemies to block them, despite that one of them was at NW and one of them at NE and they wouldn't move, then they left the dungeon before I could answer. It was impossible to block them all. SE since made you block from all directions.

The point here is that "criticism can be valid if you're not rude about it", not whether perception is wrong or right.

I told them to slowdown or else they die, because tanks back in ARR and HW actually had to play properly to gain aggro, and they did die despite all of my forewarnings. Yet it was -I- who got blamed and kicked, not them.
And worst of all, the report mentioned how I could be possibly wrong on the report, which annoyed me to this very day. This is before the Vague ToS rule changes by the way.

If perception is all that is required, then I can always use my perception to kick anyone who isn't fitting...that's not how it works though and you should know it.

It's really about establishing your intentions first because first impressions affect perception.

Just like feedback can lack any sort of depth, so can the responses to that feedback ie. saying the feedback is "wrong" or "bad" without any sort of proper articulate argument as to why or how.

I really like this quote from somewhere that really fits this whole conversation: "If you don't like being criticized, don't criticize yourself".

I do not care if someone dislikes the games I like. I will not go after them and tell them they're miserable because they dislike something that I love. I will simply say "too bad, I really like it" and move on and if they want to discuss further I'm okay with that, I will not try to impose myself in any way. Of course I might be biased but that's normal too.

The issue is only the opposite, when I dislike something that other like and people will go after me for that opinion which is different, no matter how hard I try to give my opinion in a proper argument because for them it doesn't matter that I have something to say, it matters only that I dislike what they like, meaning that the whole point of "You can say something critical without being rude about it." is completely invalidated, people will attack you no matter what you say.

Was I criticized negatively for other reasons? Absolutely: I'm told I'm a very narrowminded, very harsh person who doesn't open themselves to others, who is very antisocial due to their past experience in the game and will not let themselves open up anymore and I have a huge distrust over everyone. And I accept that criticism of me. But all I will say is "You're totally right, but there's nothing I can do about it" without attacking them and move on.

What I'm trying to say is, feedback and any kind of criticism can yes lack depth and just be destructive, I am not denying that, but today EVERY FEEDBACK lack depth or criticism according to everyone. And that's simply ludicrous.

There are good feedback and bad ones, but people nowadays seem to only see the negatives and ignore the positive, calling them trolls or haters or whatnot. My examples above were basically all negative because nothing constructive was told, just to "shut up" as if I said something completely out of the realm of possibilities and it's not too different from today's standards, where even asking the slightest of improvement in a game is regarded as trolling.

I mean, is pretending from the developers housing to be better than what we currently have such bad feedback?
Because apparently, it is for some.

[Jeeqbit]

I don't see what's difficult to see here. Except the tank's inability to accept criticism about his job. And the whole point of this post is "You can say something critical without being rude about it."
I wasn't rude about it yet here I was being blamed.

First impressions are a big deal in dungeons though. They don't know you and have no way to judge you as a person, especially if your search info is empty and they are unlikely to check in the middle of fighting.

A very common assumption until proven otherwise is that you mean it in a negative way. Until you are outside of the dungeon and having a chill conversation with them and joking with them, they are likely to take a sudden line of advice, completely out of the blue, as aggression. That's why I always say how you word it is a big deal.

The simplest thing you can probably do is just throw in a few emoji faces to establish intention and it does help.