The devs arent your friends. Stop pretending everyone is wrong and the devs are right

[Voltyblast]

Just like a lot of people's criticism isn't constructive, sometimes the responses people have to it aren't either, unfortunately.

You can disagree with one's opinion, but you should never be rude about it. Yet you say something negative, you're a bad person.
Not uncommon though, this happens everywhere. It is the whole reason why I stopped socializing in this game years ago, after all. Not worth the hassle.

That is much too simple of a response and should find an answer with more depth about why the story was alright, rather than strictly saying "wrong". Just not useful to the debate otherwise.

TL;DR I don't like a character, this person does, I said why I don't like it, they said I'm wrong for disliking for that reason, and I said "so? I still don't like it" despite their attempts and whipping out the usual "i DoN't CaRe", which makes absolutely no sense considering they made their most damn to talk me down to "like him". It turned from a gaslighting to a proper attack on my opinion and that's not right.

I always said that you're totally fine to like something that others dislike. I hate a lot of games people love, but I will never go attack them for that. Because I don't care, in the truest of senses.
But if it's me, then it's suddenly morally and legitimately right to attack me because I dislike your precious game or character, or story. Sure, whatever.

That is a difficult situation, because people in dungeons are strangers and don't know if you are a nice person or not, so first impressions make a big impact here and how you word it can make a big difference. Obviously, you need them to do the aoe or alternatively heal through it. This and the rest of the examples aren't relevant to discussing feedback for developers though.

There's no difficulty here: I was a healer, I was dying constantly, unable to heal everyone because tank did zero aggro, we wiped once or twice at the very least in a 30+ dungeon. All I asked, ALL THAT I EVER WANTED FROM THE ONE PULLING THE AGGRO, was to pull aggro. And I was the one blamed for chilling out. Only because I kindly asked the tank to press one button that they weren't pressing.

I don't see what's difficult to see here. Except the tank's inability to accept criticism about his job. And the whole point of this post is "You can say something critical without being rude about it."
I wasn't rude about it yet here I was being blamed. This brings us back to the point of the post, where "stop pretending everyone is wrong and the devs are right", as people believe that nobody's criticism is correct except for the devs.
There is a connection, even if small.

I don't think most parties would have done that, but people were more rude in ARR and HW because the game hadn't necessarily attracted the casual players it now has and the rules were not as vague.

People in ARR were more chill than today.

Besides the housing and Castrum/praetorium scenarios, which did happen in ARR, almost every other example - and others that I haven't mentioned - happened throughout HW up until now, and I could probably name more examples as well - like how in HW I was death threatened to "die in a fire" because I just said that I don't like raiding, even though I did coil but apparently "that's not enough!".

Still, back in ARR nobody cared if you disliked the story, and generally were more chill about negativity because "Hey, the game was just remade, let's give them the benefit of the doubt" despite the many questionable choices (chocobo dyeing being one of the biggest conundrums ever).
But I also saw giving their two cents about it and people either disagreed or agreed. It was very human back then and it's why I loved ARR.

But I just so happened to have met people who already had the mindset of "shut up and don't buy it" even back then, but ARR was definitely the most chill community I ever met in a mmo. HW and onward is where things changed entirely. Still regret not quitting on HW to this day because of that...

Everything is about perception. Unfortunately, in ARR the game had a lot of intricate things that caused people to attack you for doing it wrong, when you weren't. For example, I was told to face my shield at the enemies to block them, despite that one of them was at NW and one of them at NE and they wouldn't move, then they left the dungeon before I could answer. It was impossible to block them all. SE since made you block from all directions.

The point here is that "criticism can be valid if you're not rude about it", not whether perception is wrong or right.

I told them to slowdown or else they die, because tanks back in ARR and HW actually had to play properly to gain aggro, and they did die despite all of my forewarnings. Yet it was -I- who got blamed and kicked, not them.
And worst of all, the report mentioned how I could be possibly wrong on the report, which annoyed me to this very day. This is before the Vague ToS rule changes by the way.

If perception is all that is required, then I can always use my perception to kick anyone who isn't fitting...that's not how it works though and you should know it.

It's really about establishing your intentions first because first impressions affect perception.

Just like feedback can lack any sort of depth, so can the responses to that feedback ie. saying the feedback is "wrong" or "bad" without any sort of proper articulate argument as to why or how.

I really like this quote from somewhere that really fits this whole conversation: "If you don't like being criticized, don't criticize yourself".

I do not care if someone dislikes the games I like. I will not go after them and tell them they're miserable because they dislike something that I love. I will simply say "too bad, I really like it" and move on and if they want to discuss further I'm okay with that, I will not try to impose myself in any way. Of course I might be biased but that's normal too.

The issue is only the opposite, when I dislike something that other like and people will go after me for that opinion which is different, no matter how hard I try to give my opinion in a proper argument because for them it doesn't matter that I have something to say, it matters only that I dislike what they like, meaning that the whole point of "You can say something critical without being rude about it." is completely invalidated, people will attack you no matter what you say.

Was I criticized negatively for other reasons? Absolutely: I'm told I'm a very narrowminded, very harsh person who doesn't open themselves to others, who is very antisocial due to their past experience in the game and will not let themselves open up anymore and I have a huge distrust over everyone. And I accept that criticism of me. But all I will say is "You're totally right, but there's nothing I can do about it" without attacking them and move on.

What I'm trying to say is, feedback and any kind of criticism can yes lack depth and just be destructive, I am not denying that, but today EVERY FEEDBACK lack depth or criticism according to everyone. And that's simply ludicrous.

There are good feedback and bad ones, but people nowadays seem to only see the negatives and ignore the positive, calling them trolls or haters or whatnot. My examples above were basically all negative because nothing constructive was told, just to "shut up" as if I said something completely out of the realm of possibilities and it's not too different from today's standards, where even asking the slightest of improvement in a game is regarded as trolling.

I mean, is pretending from the developers housing to be better than what we currently have such bad feedback?
Because apparently, it is for some.

[Jeeqbit]

I don't see what's difficult to see here. Except the tank's inability to accept criticism about his job. And the whole point of this post is "You can say something critical without being rude about it."
I wasn't rude about it yet here I was being blamed.

First impressions are a big deal in dungeons though. They don't know you and have no way to judge you as a person, especially if your search info is empty and they are unlikely to check in the middle of fighting.

A very common assumption until proven otherwise is that you mean it in a negative way. Until you are outside of the dungeon and having a chill conversation with them and joking with them, they are likely to take a sudden line of advice, completely out of the blue, as aggression. That's why I always say how you word it is a big deal.

The simplest thing you can probably do is just throw in a few emoji faces to establish intention and it does help.

[Voltyblast]

First impressions are a big deal in dungeons though. They don't know you and have no way to judge you as a person, especially if your search info is empty and they are unlikely to check in the middle of fighting.

A very common assumption until proven otherwise is that you mean it in a negative way. Until you are outside of the dungeon and having a chill conversation with them and joking with them, they are likely to take a sudden line of advice, completely out of the blue, as aggression. That's why I always say how you word it is a big deal.

The simplest thing you can probably do is just throw in a few emoji faces to establish intention and it does help.

The way I spoke with those people wasn't what I'd call "friendly", but I wasn't being offensive either. All I did in the case of the tank's lacking aoe abilities is simple: "Can you please aoe the adds so I don't die?". How is that something so hard to grasp? How is that a negative way? Well the answer is quite easy honestly: if you can't accept even the smallest of little criticism then the real issue isn't first impressions. The problem it's you.

You know what I do if someone tells me my dps is crap? Or if my tanking is horrible? Or if my healing is trash? I get better and make sure to not do the same mistake. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, even mentally. Ic an tell you many tales of how crappy of a tank I was in WoW, and as a 15-year-old kid I had to deal with a bunch of scums treating me and my younger sister like crap. I remember her crying once because she wasn't healing well as her druid.

But then we toughen up, we became a strong duo, and we rocked and roll every heroic dungeon back in TBC. I thank those "meanies" because without them I wouldn't have become a great tank - and my sister a great healer. Sure they were awful people but I didn't let them stop me, that's the point I'm trying to make.

Basically, what this tank should've done, is simply agreed his mistake and say "sorry, I'll do more aoe". You learned from your first mistake and that's great.

But I will give credit to what you've just said: the simplest thing I discovered doing, is not to talk at all. Let them figure out their own mistakes and let them ragequit, if not then we'll finish the dungeon.
It is against ToS to compel playstyle after all, and I wouldn't dare to tell anyone what to do even if it means not progressing. First impression and all!

Take it as you will, but my opinion doesn't change: "You can say something critical without being rude about it" is an untrue statement, and unfortunately too many don't think the same way and will just believe you're being a rude. No matter how kind or gentle you are. Just like real life, if I might add.

And yes, you are absolutely allowed to disagree with me. And that is fine.

I believe it is best to stop this argument as it is starting to drift off from the main focus of this thread. However, just like I said earlier, too many people here believe that any feedback - even if positive - is bad and shouldn't be taken seriously from the developers. Which I believe it to be true.