Zodiark's Codex entry what do we think about it?

[Lunaxia]

Considering what a (hilarious) jerk the Cthonic Horns guy is, I'd say they're pretty nice about it, all things considered, lol.

I mean, you could understand why it would be a little weird, from an Ancient's perspective, when their method of research would provide results so quickly and meticulously. I don't know why it would be strange for them to think him a bit of an oddball, even if we can understand the reasoning behind it (particularly since society in general seems to be valuing a "going back to basics" approach to living right now.)

On a related note, I wrote some Amaurot-centered drabble a while ago involving Ancients who refused to use creation magic as part of their work, and I can't tell you how much joy it brings me that hipster Ancients are actually canon.

god i love the ancients so much

I just find them so ridiculously charming and endearing, it's a little hard to fathom why they're received with such antipathy in some quarters. To each their own, I suppose.

And true, I hadn't realised I could go through the side quests by zone! Time for some reading, I think...

[Yuella]

I just find them so ridiculously charming and endearing, it's a little hard to fathom why they're received with such antipathy in some quarters. To each their own, I suppose.

And true, I hadn't realised I could go through the side quests by zone! Time for some reading, I think...

They force conformity on everyone (known since Shadowbringers in Amaurot when they make everyone where the same type of clothing) and when someone like Hermes has a different mindset, he's treated like a weirdo.

[Brinne]

I mean, you could understand why it would be a little weird, from an Ancient's perspective, when their method of research would provide results so quickly and meticulously. I don't know why it would be strange for them to think him a bit of an oddball, even if we can understand the reasoning behind it (particularly since society in general seems to be valuing a "going back to basics" approach to living right now.)

Yeah, I'd compare it to someone riding a horse for transportation nowadays versus using a car, or in a less extreme example, communicating through letters and faxes instead of email or text message. (And it's not like the Cthonic Horns are outlaws or banned or anything! They have their own research facility on their own island, and they're known throughout Elpis! No one is even hostile to the idea of trying something they've come up with!) The horse-rider and letter-writer aren't wrong, per se, and yes, there are advantages on both a micro and macro level to appreciate to not go for the most "efficient" way each time. But it's also a far cry from a black and white issue.

I will say I actually don't disagree with, of the "lessons" the narrative tries to spin about Amaurot, the point that culturally they seem inclined to under-appreciate the potential an unexpected outcome may present if one thinks outside the box (although obviously that principle still has its passionate advocates, like the aforementioned Cthonic Hipsters or the Firebrand Amaurotine from Emet-Selch's city.) But it's also not weird, let alone creepy or oppressive, for other people to think that kind of fixation sort of odd and not really get the point at a glance. It's pretty normal, just in a fantasy context. Heck, barely so, when you consider this quest revolves around a piece of fruit and compare the Discourse around GMOs and such in our own world.

I've done the Elpis side-quests, but it's been a long time, and re-reading some of them is just reminding me all over again how much I love the Ancients and what excitable, sweet, well-meaning nerds most of them really are. Wait, what's this--

Well now, there's a familiar I'm not familiar with. ...Ahem. Apologies, I couldn't help myself.

I see... all this time, I was wrong... they all needed to be exterminated after all...

[Aneshda]

Speaking of Codex Entries in general, we've completed our 'active' Scions entries with Thancred. Predictions on who's next aside from Zero? Lyse when she's allowed back into the main narrative or one of the other city state leaders?

Emet Selch, Lahabrea, Athena, Erichthonios, Elidibus, Mitron, Loghrif, Nabriales, Igeyorhm, Zero, Minfilia, Moenbryda, Lamitt, Renda-Rae, Nyelbert, Varis, Nero, Gaius, Golbez, Rubicante

[Lunaxia]

They force conformity on everyone (known since Shadowbringers in Amaurot when they make everyone where the same type of clothing)

We don't have nearly enough information to make any clear judgement on that. All we know is that it's generally expected that Amaurotines wear the same garb, due to the cultural belief that disparity between individuals breeds conflict. We have no idea as to the views of the general populace, the popularity behind such reasoning or even the supposed consequences of doing otherwise, and interestingly, everyone somehow seems to forget the second half of that quest wherein the other shade is actually quite supportive and open-minded regarding what we're wearing.

It's fine if you personally find such practices stifling or conformist, but there's nothing to suggest that they're having conformity forcefully thrust upon them anywhere and it just feels like more of the "controlling fascists" rhetoric used to deprive them of any humanity whatsoever.

and when someone like Hermes has a different mindset, he's treated like a weirdo.

Yes, he's treated like such a weirdo, that his colleagues frequently fuss over him and worry about how he's doing, his state of mind and whether or not he's taking care of his health. Such a weirdo, that they continue to assent to his requests for further research and do as much as they can to spare a concept being unmade, knowing just how much it distresses him. Such a weirdo, that even after his outbursts, they still show him empathy, and go on to offer him a place on the highest seat of authority in the nation, if not the world.

Yeah, I'd compare it to someone riding a horse for transportation nowadays...

Exactly. There are critical takes about the Ancients that are accurate, and that the story does clearly call attention to - they are very bureaucratic, by-the-book and hyper-efficient, often to the detriment of creativity or innovation, and at times this does typically lead them to be fairly narrow-minded. But they're also quick to acknowledge this once it's pointed out, and come to accept their short-comings and view them as such. Nor is there any shortage of maverick or, er, original sorts who are more than happy to do to their own thing either, and they don't seem to show any fear or trepidation over the consequences of doing so. Overall, the Ancients' attitudes towards more "unique" ways of thinking pretty much mirrors our own when we come up against something unexpected, really: "uh... okay? You do you, then..." and I don't really get how there's anything inherently wrong or unexpected about that.

...Hm? You're looking a bit unwell. You must've gotten the secretion on you, you poor thing. We'd best treat you at once.
There, you'll be fine now. You did well to endure the pain, but you should've used the balm. Remember to do so next time, all right?

Damn them! Does their lack of empathy and disregard for life know no bounds?!

[RyuDragnier]

In the case of the volcano, I would assume they had an official stance on dealing with affairs abroad which perhaps limited intervention to incidents they felt required it (emergencies, potential threat to life, etc.) that they were expected to follow, and Azem said "no."

Azem in a nutshell.

[Lyth]

Amaurot's beliefs around conformity and governance aren't overly important, because everyone has their own cultural preferences and biases around these things. Unfortunately, there's no guarantee that the leadership of a democratic system need intrinsically be less corrupt and self-serving than a nation led by a self-selecting group of oligarchs. Even if the Convocation's rule was absolute, at the very least you could come to see them as benevolent dictators prior to Zodiark's influence. Conscription into public service is just a practical consideration that can occur in any society.

The real question is simply whether you unironically take Emet's beliefs that his people were 'superior' to ours at face value. I think if you do want to artificially elevate the Amaurotines to be 'superior' to the rest of us, then you are in fact depriving them of their humanity. How could mere mortals like ourselves attempt to relate to the whims of 'the gods'? If, on the other hand, you recognize that Emet's claims are strongly influenced by his jingoism, then you're humanizing Amaurot. We've seen plenty of empires through history that have claimed to be 'the greatest nation that ever was', even when they're well past their prime. What's to say that Amaurot is any different from the likes of ancient Rome?

The more that we learn about Amaurot, the more it seems to be just another people, another place, albeit with an overabundance of power. That's neither a good or a bad thing. One of the reasons why I really like snippets like the Lv. 70 Debate and Discourse sidequest referenced earlier is because it breaks away from that Ptolemaic mould which artificially placed Amaurot and its Convocation at the centre of the Ancient world. What were the cultural views of that foreign metropolis 'across the pond'? Did they genuflect to the Amaurotines as 'shepherds of the Star', or did they have their own independent beliefs, values, and cultural pride?

Even in that same quest, there is a discussion around whether it would benefit Amaurot to intervene if only to use the foreign calamity as a testing ground for their latest creation magicks. Which makes me wonder - what would a less 'technologically' driven nation in that era look like, and how would their sundered descendants differ from us? As an example, what would a 'faith' based Ancient society look like in which summons were revered or even worshipped, rather than viewed as tools to be bred and discarded? Might they have a more spiritualistic inclination, like the Cetra? Could there have existed societies in that era that drew on dynamis rather than aether?

This sort of thinking opens up avenues for a wider range of story possibilities, rather than tying all stories and historical developments back to an isolationist Amaurot ruling over the 'provinces' from on high. It also opens up Azem's origin story as well, because they need not be tied down to one specific culture by birth or upbringing.

[Vyrerus]

face value jingoism

The setting of FFXIV is fundamentally different to all comparisons you're making in this post. It is laid down within this setting that the World Unsundered and its inhabitants were the original and natural state of the world. Unlike Rome or any other real world empire, the Ancient world in FFXIV was post war. The implications surrounding Amaurot's sister city is that there were other places the world over, not Amaurot, but like Amaurot. We don't have any specifics on them, as of now, but sister cities are cities that are basically reflections of each other because they exchange in culture to a heavy extent.

And we can completely take Emet-selch's factual statement at face value, because the game itself showcases every manner in which it is true. Unsundered people had higher aetheric density and whole souls. This allowed many of them to perform creation magicks, but more than that it meant they lived longer, were larger, were free from disease, and other similar things. That's all exposited, but what's shown to us with regards to Unsundered people is their power level, more or less. They are capable of spells and feats that only the supremely talented members of our Sundered cast can do with the aid of what are perceived of as gods. To defeat Emet-selch took the most powerful Sundered individual, one of his remaining soul shards fusing with him, and then 7 of the most powerful Sundered individuals of our age. In addition to the 7 other Light Warriors called by G'raha Tia. In addition to white auracite, and turning the power of the Lightwardens into a weapon against him.

Beyond that still, and most importantly, is the fact that the Azem Stone and its incantation are Unsundered Magic. In wanting to lessen the Ludonarrative Dissonance for why we always have 8 man parties, the devs for XIV have succeeded in making us entirely dependent on an Ancient, Unsundered Spell. And with that, within Endwalker, Hydaelyn bestowed her own Unsundered Magic onto the stone, which we used in Ultima Thule not only to bring back the Scions, but to first bring back two Unsundered Ancients who then used their mighty creation magicks to make Ultima Thule a physical realm so the Scions could be brought back without unmaking it.

You take the most powerful sundered magi that we know about, and we can see examples similar to Ascian levels of power in some of them, but none of them could do what the Ancients do wholesale without first being gifted Ancient memories, spells, and knowledge.

The Sundered World is still reliant on hand me downs from those who came before. Otherwise, we would have failed to save it numerous times now. This is how they are explicitly shown to be superior.

As far as other societies go in the Unsundered World, it stands to reason that they were similar to Amaurot in many ways. Peaceful. Advanced. Comfortable. Intellectual. Yet, none of them are important to our story, because they didn't cause problems as big as Amaurot, nor did they solve any problems that Amaurot brought about.

This essentially makes Amaurot the world leader of Ancient times by fiat of praxis. As with all other storylines in FFXIV, the WoL and their compatriots are only concerned with nation leaders, though they save common people often, they never change any place from the ground up by getting in with the commoners first. The closest we get to doing that is Stormblood's Far Eastern arc where we rally the Doman people in Yanxia before ever meeting with Lord Hien. Of course, we immediately turned to Hien upon finding him, and defaulted to his royal decree ever after.

So even if we learn new things about the World Unsundered outside of Amaurot, it doesn't really do anything for our already established Amaurotine Azem, and it opens up other cans of worms. Even if Azem was an outsider to Amaurot before joining the Convocation, the fact is that Azem still embraced that way of life. Azem saw that they could do the most good by taking up that position, rather than any other city or any other government in the entire Unsundered World. Even Venat having traveled the world over still adhered mainly to Amaurotine society.

[RyuDragnier]

This sort of thinking opens up avenues for a wider range of story possibilities, rather than tying all stories and historical developments back to an isolationist Amaurot ruling over the 'provinces' from on high. It also opens up Azem's origin story as well, because they need not be tied down to one specific culture by birth or upbringing.

I'm still of a mindset that Azem is from one of those other places. Personal headcanon is that Azem is from a place more in tune to nature and open to ideas and creativity. Basically the opposite of Amaurot. If we were to declare Amaurot the "Order" of the world, the place Azem is from is the "Chaos" of the world. A place that raises people to be themselves instead of following the overall "Order" of the society. Not to say there aren't rules there, but they're much more open to creativity, expression of the self, and more akin to Idylshire or the Azim Steppe in terms of how the society is.

[Lurina]

Amaurot's beliefs around conformity and governance aren't overly important, because everyone has their own cultural preferences and biases around these things. Unfortunately, there's no guarantee that the leadership of a democratic system need intrinsically be less corrupt and self-serving than a nation led by a self-selecting group of oligarchs. Even if the Convocation's rule was absolute, at the very least you could come to see them as benevolent dictators prior to Zodiark's influence. Conscription into public service is just a practical consideration that can occur in any society.

The real question is simply whether you unironically take Emet's beliefs that his people were 'superior' to ours at face value. I think if you do want to artificially elevate the Amaurotines to be 'superior' to the rest of us, then you are in fact depriving them of their humanity. How could mere mortals like ourselves attempt to relate to the whims of 'the gods'? If, on the other hand, you recognize that Emet's claims are strongly influenced by his jingoism, then you're humanizing Amaurot. We've seen plenty of empires through history that have claimed to be 'the greatest nation that ever was', even when they're well past their prime. What's to say that Amaurot is any different from the likes of ancient Rome?

I don't think anyone in the current conversation is arguing the Ancients are intrinsically superior people than modern ones in the setting. They seem more peaceful and to have more communal values, but that's more a product of circumstance than nature. Even if the real world, people who don't have to contend with scarcity much tend to (with a strong emphasis on those last two words) be more educated and less prone to conflict, but it's a reactionary perspective to think this is evidence of them being somehow less "savage" on any kind of fundamental level. It's easy to emotionally disarm oneself and get used to thinking about the big picture when life is comfortable and you're not constantly competing to survive.

That being said, while Emet is a racist (even if it's more of a coping mechanism than a sincerely held belief, as Y'shtola points out explicitly at the end of Ultima Thule) I think it's a mischaracterization to say he's an Amaurotine-supremacist in specific. Let's look at his dialogue from The View From Above:

What? You thought ancient beings like us incapable of crying? Well, rest assured that if your heart can be broken, then so can mine! Back when the world was whole, we had family, friends, loves... Men knew peace and contentment, and with our adamant souls, we could live for an age. There was no conflict born of want or disparity. Our differences paled into insignificance next to all we had in common. And then there was Amaurot... Never was a city more magnificent. From the humblest streets to the highest spires, she fairly gleamed..."

Emet singles out Amaurot and obviously holds a special affection for it as his home, but he doesn't idolize Amaurotines as superior from other Ancient humans. In all his dialogue, he only compares ancient mankind in totality with modern mankind in totality. He's less a jingoist nationalist - if Garlemald and Allag are good examples, he regards jingoism as an exploitable flaw with Sundered humanity more than anything - and more an extremely stubborn version of the protagonist of I Am Legend, killing what he regards as undead abominations born of the "real" human race.

Still, it's frustrating how the text talks about Amaurot because it feels like the writers can't decide if they wanted it to be the only real culture of the Ancients (how EW and the grapes short story seems to lean) or just one of many (as ShB seems to lean). The Codex entries in particular seem to treat "Ancients" as synonymous with "Amaurotines" and the Convocation as some sort of global government in defiance of Debate and Discourse's worldbuilding, which is something I find extremely annoying - my headcanon is that Amaurot became the global government by virtue of being the last one standing, but that's a stab in the dark. So it's difficult to say what their relationship was to other nations, and whether they really were "provinces" or if Amaurot was just the Sharlayan of the time and a little conceited about itself.