Zodiark's Codex entry what do we think about it?

[Lunaxia]

So I threw Eric's lines from Pandaemonium into my favourite Japanese dictionary, as it's a modest step above Google Translate and I was curious. I'm not the guaranteed conveyor of nuance some of you are searching for, but for those also interested:

In English, he says "I must defy the directive (of the Convocation.)"

In Japanese, it's "(十四人委員会)の方針に従わない." 方針 is defined as a "course, line or policy", while 従う (which Eric uses in the negative) means generally "to obey" or "to follow", seemingly both in the loose and absolute sense of the word. xの方針に従う typically translates in most instances as "abide by, follow or comply with x's policy."

So on reflection, I actually think SE's original translation is quite accurate here, given that "directive" to my mind has a similar nuance of "instruction" or "direction" the original Japanese possesses, and makes more sense given the context than alternative translations. My own interpretation of the matter is, being the approximation of our government, they put out an official guideline on how they planned to deal with the Final Days that they expected the citizens would naturally comply with as a matter of course, given the general view of the Ancients was that they lived to better their star; I don't think the Convocation would even have thought to give direct orders, as it was beyond the bounds of consideration that they wouldn't, if that makes sense?

Japanese has other words for more concrete forms of command (the word I see most often used in that context is 命令, which means "order"), so while this is merely my take on it, I do believe that's more what they were trying to suggest with that wording. Anyone with more insight is free to correct me, of course.

I understand that generation can and is applied to many things. Yet, when one normally talks about leaving something to be inherited by the next generation the expected recipient is thought of as one's offspring and you know not their toy Furby. Not that there are some people who would actually go and do such a thing as leave all their worldly possessions to their pet African Grey.

You're being a little facetious. "A new generation" is more than capable of being applied to the world as it was then, filled with various new creatures and forms of life, which if left might have flourished and potentially set the stage for further ecological growth and even more new species to be developed. If we assume your view that she meant a form of mankind (?) - which is a bit of a shot in the dark - then I'm not sure how obliterating them back to the Stone Age is meant to enable them to inherit anything.

[Iscah]

I was basically saying I do not consider an absence of a driving force inciting change to be tranquility be default. It's one interpretation to be sure, but it certainly isn't the only one. Absence of change can just as easily be a creepy, disquieting void of nothing as it can be a tranquil sea with no waves to disrupt equilibrium.

Thus the description that Light represents tranquility and stasis. The threat to the First (and later to the Source in the other timeline) was one of utter stasis brought about by excessive Light. There is no discrepancy there.

[Cleretic]

If it helps: Law in the SHin Megami Tensei games is essentially a Light-dominated scenario.

...wait, that doesn't help at all, there is very little chance that she knows enough about Shin Megami Tensei to get that.

Okay, if you know Doctor Who: the Daleks would be Light-aligned.

EDIT: In retrospect I think that might help even less

[Lunaxia]

Yeah, it's a bit of a weird thing to get caught up in in this point...

It's a little funny to me that the aim of this thread, even if meant with all the good faith in the world, was effectively to call attention to how the Convocation might have conceivably ordered the Ancients to kill themselves, before proceeding to subtly highlight in contrast the morality of Venat's actions by pointing out how she wanted to preserve new life of potential importance... that would have, you know, resurrected those Ancients. It still boils down to the same matter of her choosing one form of life over another, and the fundamental question of how that makes her any better overall.

[TowaIsBestGirl]

If it helps: Law in the SHin Megami Tensei games is essentially a Light-dominated scenario.

...wait, that doesn't help at all, there is very little chance that she knows enough about Shin Megami Tensei to get that.

Okay, if you know Doctor Who: the Daleks would be Light-aligned.

EDIT: In retrospect I think that might help even less

For just a moment I was going to say that typically the Law routes in SMT are pretty scummy and evil/bad routes, but really all the routes are pretty crummy. Venat's better than all of them, if nothing else. Though, it's hard to not be better than a SMT-style Demiurge or YHWH. But yeah, that first example does a terrible job of illustrated the virtues of the Light regrettably. I suppose I just felt to write about Venat's better qualities would be better served by calling attention to her own character quirks and the goals she wished to accomplish than the element her magic is based on, if the intent is to establish her as a more suitable alternative to the primal Zodiark. After Shadowbringers lore drops, the point of extrapolating "He was the Darkness, She was the Light" falls just a tad more flat in my opinion. Such that I didn't feel it was necessary to really include it, further than to establish basic metaphysics sans any moral embellishments.

It's a little funny to me that the aim of this thread, even if meant with all the good faith in the world, was effectively to call attention to how the Convocation might have conceivably ordered the Ancients to kill themselves, before proceeding to subtly highlight in contrast the morality of Venat's actions by pointing out how she wanted to preserve new life of potential importance... that would have, you know, resurrected those Ancients. It still boils down to the same matter of her choosing one form of life over another, and the fundamental question of how that makes her any better overall.

This was basically the insinuation I was calling attention to, but you used your words in much more proficient ways than I've ever been capable of. I suppose it doesn't really matter, does it.

[SannaR]

You're being a little facetious. "A new generation" is more than capable of being applied to the world as it was then, filled with various new creatures and forms of life, which if left might have flourished and potentially set the stage for further ecological growth and even more new species to be developed. If we assume your view that she meant a form of mankind (?) - which is a bit of a shot in the dark - then I'm not sure how obliterating them back to the Stone Age is meant to enable them to inherit anything.

Again I am fully aware what all generation can be applied to. What we know is that it was thinner in aetheric density and had souls. We also know that pre-sundereding thinness in aether didn't become a matter of contention and that souls shouldn't be trapped inside something. So, unless the Convocation and anyone else who worshipped Zodiark still felt the same they're wanting to swap out souls with souls. The more likely scenario is that the point of contention is how said new generation looked.

If we can assume that Venat was still trying to prevent the sundering from happening then she probably would have wanted to have those thinner imbued with a soul life to go and fix the real problem. Which wouldn't make sense if it wasn't people. Not that we have any evidence that scenario would have been another failed back up plan. To me you would obliterate said life if you felt that your opponent as the entry implies would just continue to swap out the souls in Zodiark for different souls. That they were going to probably have to repeatedly cultivate due to the thinness.

Where the most likely explanation as to why it was thinner is that's the only thing they knew how to make. As every creation and seemingly familiar were thinner in aether than the ancients themselves. And a far better theory than my full of holes one of Venat having made a deal somehow to have the new life be thinner in hopes that she as I said could try and avert from having to sunder everything. Only for the convocation to go no we don't like the look of this new life and we're going to create a cycle of soul replacement. What is an easier solution? Trying to squirrel away a small selection to try and fix the real problem in secret while ignoring a cycle of sacrific? Or to not allow said cycle to continue to perpetuate even if that means said new life is getting a crappy inheritance while still being able to aim to fix the real problem?

Edit: I also wasn't using the Furby or African Grey to be facetious. I meant them to be examples of at least in fiction as I don't make it a habit to look for a real person of when someone either out of spite for their family or due to that's how kooky they were to leave everything be hind to their 11yr old poodle. As it doesn't make much sense if the new soul filled life wasn't at least humanoid. Vs it being fauna and flora. Unless you're willing to speculate on if Venat and/or her group would be fine with the Reptites inherited the planet time line from Chrono Trigger where Dinopolis gets built being what does the inheriting. And that people tend to be the implied recipient when talking about the next generation inheriting something. Like when people build parks say stuff akin to its to be enjoyed by those who are currently alive and further generations.

[SannaR]

I also didn't mean for this to go in said direction. As until this entry was put into the game Zodiark from other entries according to some didn't feel as though he was shown in a good light. That and we also know that the devs when they change the phrasing of things it's supposed to serve a purpose. So the use of the new terms made me go why have they chosen to change it now to the ones they used. What is their aim with the use of said new terms and does anyone feel that it changes anything from how we have perceived them in the past. Obviously it's a no while at least to me aligning closer to the language that we got in ShB from Emet of how things happened and were treated as.

[Denishia]

Speaking of Codex Entries in general, we've completed our 'active' Scions entries with Thancred. Predictions on who's next aside from Zero? Lyse when she's allowed back into the main narrative or one of the other city state leaders?

[Yuella]

Venat's is better because the ancients couldn't handle their sufferings because they're used to having perfect lives while the new life forms are not mortals and will learn how to deal with diseases and deaths and eventually learn how to find joy in sufferings, which is key to defeating Meteion. Also, the old lives were already dead and the new lives were still living. You do not sacrifice unwilling life forms who are still living to bring back dead people who willingly sacrificed themselves.

[Lurina]

Where the most likely explanation as to why it was thinner is that's the only thing they knew how to make. As every creation and seemingly familiar were thinner in aether than the ancients themselves. And a far better theory than my full of holes one of Venat having made a deal somehow to have the new life be thinner in hopes that she as I said could try and avert from having to sunder everything. Only for the convocation to go no we don't like the look of this new life and we're going to create a cycle of soul replacement. What is an easier solution? Trying to squirrel away a small selection to try and fix the real problem in secret while ignoring a cycle of sacrific? Or to not allow said cycle to continue to perpetuate even if that means said new life is getting a crappy inheritance while still being able to aim to fix the real problem?

Regardless of what the new life was, it was never the plan to sacrifice all of it. Hythlodaeus's original explanation explicitly says that they'd "cultivate" it for a time and sacrifice a "portion" to bring back the Ancients within Zodiark.