On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[Denishia]

Not to fully retread old arguments, but keeping this focused on "Venat's individual motivations and actions" themselves as a potential foil or parallel to Athena - as opposed to a wider argument on the Convocation - Endwalker pretty firmly established that at least for Venat herself, (you could make an argument for her faction, who were largely kept in the dark about what she knew and what she intended), the sacrifices were the least of her concerns, and she was primarily motivated by the question of the Endsinger and her fears that the Ancients would eventually submit to total societal stagnation and nihilism, ala the Nibirun. This is reflected both in her not understanding why she would ever do what she did when you first give her the Endsinger-less and Meteion's report-less understanding of the future scenario, and the fact that whatever the "new life" was, Hydaelyn also chopped it up and effectively killed it all in the Sundering along with the Ancients.

For Venat herself, just like Athena (at least, the argument Athena put forth), the primary concern was indeed for her concept of "the greater good," and all forms of life around her were an acceptable sacrifice towards a future that would shape it.

"To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness."

To put in a parallel - the Convocation is acting like Hephatios in P8 - wanting to sacrifice Erichtonios to bring back Athena. Venat and her followers were trying to save Erichtonios but Venat realizes that she can't, her attempts at least in the timeline that we are on have no outcome where she succeeded in convincing Hephatios not to kill Athena in the first place and now her attempts at reasoning with Hephatios won't stop him from killing Erichtonios. He's solely focused on restoring Athena, who in this case was far more a victim of Ultima's auracite. Now the writers would have allowed the WoL in a similar situation to just kill Hephatios and save Erichtonios. Venat's followers think she might be able to. Thanks to time-travel shenanigans, Venat knows she won't be able to save Erichtonios, but her blow that stops Hephatios from killing him is also going to transform Erichtonios into Claudien. And Claudien, unlike Hephatios, is willing to go hunt down Ultima the High Seraph and unlike Hephatios or herself, actually has the best chance of defeating Ultima (and free Athena to be reborn too). I totally get the anger that Venat was still killing Erichtonios to get Claudien- but Hephaitios was also trying to kill Erichtonios, and as the story is written I disagree that Hephatios was ever going to kill Ultima.

[Kozh]

To put in a parallel - the Convocation is acting like Hephatios in P8 - wanting to sacrifice Erichtonios to bring back Athena. Venat and her followers were trying to save Erichtonios but Venat realizes that she can't, her attempts at least in the timeline that we are on have no outcome where she succeeded in convincing Hephatios not to kill Athena in the first place and now her attempts at reasoning with Hephatios won't stop him from killing Erichtonios. He's solely focused on restoring Athena, who in this case was far more a victim of Ultima's auracite. Now the writers would have allowed the WoL in a similar situation to just kill Hephatios and save Erichtonios. Venat's followers think she might be able to. Thanks to time-travel shenanigans, Venat knows she won't be able to save Erichtonios, but her blow that stops Hephatios from killing him is also going to transform Erichtonios into Claudien. And Claudien, unlike Hephatios, is willing to go hunt down Ultima the High Seraph and unlike Hephatios or herself, actually has the best chance of defeating Ultima (and free Athena to be reborn too). I totally get the anger that Venat was still killing Erichtonios to get Claudien- but Hephaitios was also trying to kill Erichtonios, and as the story is written I disagree that Hephatios was ever going to kill Ultima.

No offense, but this isn't really a good parallel imo (and very confusing). Venat's reasoning to sunder is no longer about saving "erichtonios". Because in EW there's new factors that influence her decision; meteion, dynamis and the Nibirun Dead End.

Also

her attempts at least in the timeline that we are on have no outcome where she succeeded in convincing Hephatios not to kill Athena in the first place

are you implying that venat tried to prevent first and second sacrifice as well?

[Denishia]

I think that Venat's statement that end "so I take nothing for granted as I walk my path" and the uncertainty that we were in a closed loop timeline or not until the Mothercrystal scene meant that Venat was trying to find solutions to the Final Days that wouldn't involve Zodiark or the Sundering, and by the nature of returning to our timeline we don't see if there are timelines where Venat was less cautious about not taking any steps that would butterfly away Zodiark's creation nor do we get to see the timeline where her pleading to the Zodiark worshiping survivors of the Final Days that focusing on trying to recreate their post-trauma memory of their past by offering up their present and future while not addressing what led to what had destroyed it and how to defeat its source which was still out there worked without having to Sunder. The game posits that the Endsinger wouldn't be defeated by the Ancients as they were without changing - until she pulls out the sword Venat is trying to debate that change of attitude without the change of the physical world. We also don't get to see the timeline where we arrive long before Hermes sent the Meteia into space and convince him via a life-changing road trip that there are answers to the doubts that plague him and other ways to find purpose and meaning in life than the only one he's been told - or no clear answers at all and that's okay.

[Kozh]

I think that Venat's statement that end "so I take nothing for granted as I walk my path" and the uncertainty that we were in a closed loop timeline or not until the Mothercrystal scene meant that Venat was trying to find solutions to the Final Days that wouldn't involve Zodiark or the Sundering

And yet we don't see any proof of this contigency/defense plan of her, not even in her walk scene.

until she pulls out the sword Venat is trying to debate that change of attitude without the change of the physical world.

If this is true, then she did a very bad job of trying to convince her people.

But this is interesting, as you said, the game posits that the Ancient couldn't defeat meteion because of dynamis. So why did she even bother trying to change everyone's mind about 3rd sacrifice? Shouldn't she just sunder them regardless?

[Yuella]

And yet we don't see any proof of this contigency/defense plan of her, not even in her walk scene.




If this is true, then she did a very bad job of trying to convince her people.

But this is interesting, as you said, the game posits that the Ancient couldn't defeat meteion because of dynamis. So why did she even bother trying to change everyone's mind about 3rd sacrifice? Shouldn't she just sunder them regardless?

She let Elidibus, Lahabrea and Emet-Selch escaped the Sundering so they could bring the rejoining 7x which will result in US, the warrior of light who visited her in Elpis, to be born and have the proper aether/dynamis balance to be able to beat Meteion.

Second question, if her people were willing to deal with their suffering, then she would not have to sunder the world because there's no danger of them becoming suicidal and deactivating Zodiark to let Meteion's attack through. Eventually they would find a way to confront Meteion via whatever method.

[Cleretic]

We don't hear about Venat's group's contingency/defense plans (aside from the moon escape plan) because they literally do not matter. We weren't there, they were either tried but didn't work or weren't tried because they clearly wouldn't work, they moved on; they have absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the stories actually being told. The only thing we need to know was communicated by Venat in the last conversation with her before we left Elpis, where she says she's gonna do all she can (she actually specifically mentions having faith in Hermes), and the Anamnesis Anyder scene, where it's clear that her group have been trying to convince people and getting nowhere, possibly but not confirmably because of tempering.

You could ask the exact same question about the Ascians' ideas for how to fix the planet after the Sundering, but we don't, because we all know that the only ones that mattered were the ones that had measurable results, albeit negative ones (the Thirteenth, and Calamities); it's not important and doesn't matter if the Ascians tried 'nicer' contingency plans, it matters that they did the thing that actually had effects. But for some reason, people trying to bring up This Same Damn Argument are never as critical of the Ascians.


Which is a shame, because--to bring back on topic--I think Themis would've had an interesting view on this if the story had ever tried to ask him.