Thread: On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

Originally Posted by Dikatis

While I do love a good, unrepentant villain, I'm not sure if Athena is meant to be seen as a "feminist" figure? FFXIV's setting as a whole is generally pretty feminist, between the core three city-states all being led by women and the general prevalence of women in positions of power (i.e. Roswen and the Sanguine Sirens, Lucia as the second-in-command of the Temple Knights, Livia as a Tribunus, Vergilia as Legatus of the IIIrd Legion e.t.c.). But Athena isn't really that? I guess she's in command of her own actions in pursuit of megalomaniacal self-empowerment, but she's not really a role model in any way?

I'll admit to not really reading things through a feminist lens much of the time, but I don't think sociopathy, megalomania, and general selfishness are traits to aspire for in a feminist figure. The subversion of the expectation that she must have SOME sympathetic reason for her actions makes her an interesting villain akin to Zenos, but again, I'm not sure if her lack of maternal instinct (or empathy in general) makes her someone to admire and emulate.

Ah, when I say feminism, I don't mean that FFXIV was deliberately crafting a "feminist" character in Athena. I'm sure that wasn't the specific goal of the writers. I'm talking about my personal perspective on feminism, especially when engaging with media, and part of that is, to me, understanding that women are just as fully capable of covering an equally wide range of emotional, moral, and intellectual capacity as men do, including the lack thereof and the uglier possibilities. My feminism isn't about "what to emulate" or role models, most of the time, it's about respecting that women are full-fledged People and everything that that entails, good or bad.

Women are more frequently hit, in general, with what you said about "there must be some reason..." in a way that men usually aren't shackled to by default - and that I think often feels condescending and "comforting" to an audience in an obnoxious way to try to indicate that women are fundamentally "softer" creatures, who, if they turn to evil, must have been Wounded from that default in some way - and you only need to look at FFXIV's own array of female villains prior to Athena to see that, I think.

Originally Posted by Brinne

(Athena post)

I agree with the overall tone of your post, and likewise since tier 2 I've loved Athena from a feminist perspective of finally having a character that is so completely unapologetic and even uses her motherhood in the coldest, most despicable fashion. Let's just say I love that she's the openly narcissistic Ancient mom… The lines between her and Erich are so great. … even though I suppose it isn't really Erich then. Seriously. This story and its set up. MEH.

But it's the auracite twist still has me going "eh". It's not a full excuse that completely corrupted her. But I can't help but feel it dampens my enthusiasm a little, just because of the fact that it's there as a possibility. I think it's up to interpretation, but I take the exchange between Lahabrea and Erichthonios as tacit acknowledgment that she might have been a mother to him had it not gone this way, and that's what has me going "hm… shame". I don't think it's clearcut how much of this only happened because of the auracite's influence.
I just wanted her to have zero sort of anything that might even pass as an excuse. Maybe if I read your post enough and self-hypnotise I'll manage to forget this impression and fully revel in her glory like I once did before last Tuesday. I am looking forward to the Athena fan art this will spring, because there are quite a few pieces I've loved these past 9 months or so.

And her minion description just made me laugh. This Ancient narc mom knows how to deal with her simps!

Even putting aside glorious FEMINISM, the other aspect of what's consistently frustrating about the common media depictions of "a parent/mother's love always bears out in the end..." or what have you, is god, how infuriating and awful must it be for victims of that kind of abuse to have it reinforced that they should also factor in that deep deep down, their manipulative and abusive parents loved them, were really just putting on an evil face or hurting them for their sake, etc, etc, all the tropes we're so used to seeing?

It therefore really did feel remarkably good and brave and gutsy for the narrative to not just have Athena being herself, but also have Erichtonios confront that question head on, get the answer he got, and then be empowered to respond (with unabashed venom) in the way that he did, overcoming her influence and claiming his personhood and agency for himself.

As far as Lahabrea goes, I was sort of charmed (in that delicious Athena way) by the way she obviously was deeply disappointed that her husband (and later, us) simply didn't get it, because she truly sees her own perspective as obviously natural and reasonable, and is eager to have others agree with her. Part of what's terrifying about people like Athena is that there's something... not genuine, but also not fully fake, in their behavior in being interested in having someone as a partner or colleague, but also being able to flippantly and instantly reject you and throw you away like trash as soon as you "disappoint" them. In a way, I think that can destroy you even more thoroughly than if someone was just hateful and cruel from the get-go.

Originally Posted by Teraq

I agree with the overall tone of your post, and likewise since tier 2 I've loved Athena from a feminist perspective of finally having a character that is so completely unapologetic and even uses her motherhood in the coldest, most despicable fashion. Let's just say I love that she's the openly narcissistic Ancient mom… The lines between her and Erich are so great. … even though I suppose it isn't really Erich then. Seriously. This story and its set up. MEH.

But it's the auracite twist still has me going "eh". It's not a full excuse that completely corrupted her. But I can't help but feel it dampens my enthusiasm a little, just because of the fact that it's there as a possibility. I think it's up to interpretation, but I take the exchange between Lahabrea and Erichthonios as tacit acknowledgment that she might have been a mother to him had it not gone this way, and that's what has me going "hm… shame". I don't think it's clearcut how much of this only happened because of the auracite's influence.
I just wanted her to have zero sort of anything that might even pass as an excuse. Maybe if I read your post enough and self-hypnotise I'll manage to forget this impression and fully revel in her glory like I once did before last Tuesday. I am looking forward to the Athena fan art this will spring, because there are quite a few pieces I've loved these past 9 months or so.

And her minion description just made me laugh. This Ancient narc mom knows how to deal with her simps!

Thing is, the auracite would not have had that effect if she wasn't a narc in the first place. All that rock does is enhance traits already present in the person.

Originally Posted by Brinne

Even putting aside glorious FEMINISM, the other aspect of what's consistently frustrating about the common media depictions of "a parent/mother's love always bears out in the end..." or what have you, is god, how infuriating and awful must it be for victims of that kind of abuse to have it reinforced that they should also factor in that deep deep down, their manipulative and abusive parents loved them, were really just putting on an evil face or hurting them for their sake, etc, etc, all the tropes we're so used to seeing?

I know you know I know I want to reply to this with a very obvious parallel… but I won't elaborate, because I certainly do not wish to see the lore forums suddenly erupt into a raging blaze. Not little ol' me!

Part of what's terrifying about people like Athena is that there's something... not genuine, but also not fully fake, in their behavior in being interested in having someone as a partner or colleague, but also being able to flippantly and instantly reject you and throw you away like trash as soon as you "disappoint" them.

I can't help but be reminded of the … (cringes) multi-layered… relationship between Petyr Baelish and Sansa Stark (in the books). While it hasn't progressed to that state thanks to the author's notorious procrastinating tendencies (and it is my right as a Book Snob to ignore any other sort of canon of A Song Of Ice And Fire that might exist), this terrifying undercurrent is absolutely there. And it's a horrific dark dynamic I love to read.

Originally Posted by Teraq

I know you know I know I want to reply to this with a very obvious parallel… but I won't elaborate, because I certainly do not wish to see the lore forums suddenly erupt into a raging blaze. Not little ol' me!

I can honestly say that really wasn't the primary thought in my mind when I wrote that bit! (The dog person bit, on the other hand? S-sorry, everyone.) It was more prompted by seeing feedback from other corners in terms of how they found Athena refreshing and, in some ways, important in what she depicts.

But I will say, in the case of GLORIOUS FEMINISM, this is part of why Venat falls flat as a character to me, even beyond the Sundering debate. She is, to me, so obviously calculated to hit all of those traditional Feminine and Feminine Strength/Maternal Love/Loving Core vibes used to soften up anything otherwise controversial about her character for the sake of audience appeal that much of the time it's difficult for me to even see her as a character, more or less. I think she does legitimately have charisma, and I liked her fine until the montage (I think I've mentioned ever since 5.2 I was hyped beyond belief for her character, because - a woman willing to be ruthless for her ideals!? Gimme gimme gimme!), however, the writing was petrified of allowing anyone room to actually perceive her as potentially "hard" or "ruthless" in how she went about things because that would compromise what they wanted for her to be as Loving Mother as possible in regards to her actions, given the writing corner they ended up in with her. There really isn't much there to sink your teeth in with Venat, beyond the inherent controversy of what she did, and the Good Vibes, unless you go full-bore reading against the grain of the text.