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  1. #1
    Player
    Brinne's Avatar
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    Aug 2019
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    498
    Character
    Raelle Brinn
    World
    Ultros
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    White Mage Lv 90
    It's a little frustrating, I admit, to be interested in talking about the writing parallels between Athena and Venat, only to see the topic immediately get derailed by the same old arguments ignoring the core question entirely and acting like it's a given that well it's okay because Venat was doing it for the greater good, and she did feel bad about it, and we don't know everything she did, and, and!

    ...when, as I said, Pandaemonium's ultimate condemnation of Athena had nothing to do with that entire framework and was instead about the unacceptable cost to the people currently living around her. If Athena's own plan (as opposed to Venat's) of rising to godhood and subsequently erasing, then reshaping, the Ancients, souls, bodies, and all, into something better - and it just so happened to turn out that whatever Athena's version was also capable of dealing with the Endsinger (keeping in mind that Hydaelyn also had no guarantee and no way of knowing if we were up to the task or not)--

    Is the argument that Athena would have been right, as the story argues Venat was?
    (9)
    Last edited by Brinne; 05-30-2023 at 02:29 AM.

  2. #2
    Player
    Lyth's Avatar
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    Jul 2015
    Location
    Meracydia
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    3,883
    Character
    Lythia Norvaine
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    I can understand a bit better now where Yoshi-p's statements about Amaurot from the March 2022 Live Letter are coming from. If you saw some of those very same behaviors in any another person, you might ordinarily describe them as being unempathetic or even having antisocial personality traits. These, unfortunately, are common enough qualities in people in positions of power in our own societies.

    The Amaurotines just happen to have power in excess as an entire society. They're used to creating and then snuffing out the lives of entire species 'for the good of the star'. This gets reinforced culturally as well - Emet's test to see if Hermes is 'qualified' to take the seat of Fandaniel is essentially to see if he can steel himself to make a species go extinct with his own hands, even if his very nature rails against it. Being too 'kind' or too 'compassionate' is counterproductive to the role. These traits are selected against. It's not that our fundamental natures are necessarily 'different' - it's that their environmental upbringing pushes them to become more uncompromising, ruthless and implacable.

    The character who is probably the single best embodiment of this worldview is Pandaemonium's Lahabrea, which is unsurprising, given that he is both the most senior member of the Convocation and its Speaker.

    Lahabrea is written in a way that is positively Byronic. He knows that Athena is corrupted by Sabik from the start. He creates Pandaemonium as an asylum for his wife safely away from the rest of society, in truly Rochester-esque fashion. And when he discovers her intent after merging souls with her, he quietly murders her and rips out the side of him that held any lingering affection for her - only to re-embrace her madness as his own in order to ensure that he had enough power to 'guide the Star'. And it's this very same decision that ultimately leads to his later descent into madness and subsequent demise.

    He's genuinely caring to his son in a way that makes him very human, yet there's something utterly implacable in his nature and actions that makes him even more ferocious than Athena. I only wish that he was written this well from the very start, instead of the moustache-twirling villain that he was in ARR/Heavensward. I daresay if he had, he would have easily eclipsed even Emet in his scenes.

    I think this clash of values, not between Emet and Venat, but rather between Lahabrea and the Warrior of Light, is ultimately what defines the crux of the battle between the old world and the new. Emet and Elidibus on some level are still friends. Lahabrea is Azem's first and truest antagonist, and he makes sure to remind us of this fact before parting ways for good.

    'Was it his affinity for concepts of flame that made him so like the fire itself? From peerless Ifrita to that hopelessly immortal bird, his creations had burned bright and beautiful ─ as did he. He should have known what becomes of the flame once all else is ash.'
    (12)

  3. #3
    Player
    Lurina's Avatar
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    Aug 2019
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    334
    Character
    Floria Aerinus
    World
    Balmung
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    White Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyth View Post
    Emet's test to see if Hermes is 'qualified' to take the seat of Fandaniel is essentially to see if he can steel himself to make a species go extinct with his own hands, even if his very nature rails against it.
    I don't know where you're getting this from. Emet's final line to Hermes after the lyakon is dead is "Join the Convocation, Hermes. You do not belong here." along with a pained expression.



    It's obvious he's trying to get him to change jobs in that moment because he realizes Hermes is grossly unhappy in a position that requires him to regularly euthanize animals, not because this has all been some sort of test to see if he's got enough grit to be part of the Convocation. If anything, he comes across as disconcerted by the whole series of events.

    And then after Hermes gives his big speech about how the way the Ancients treat life on the star is wrong, Emet says:

    Quote Originally Posted by Emet-Selch
    ...I don't know what answer he's searching for, or if it is within our power to give it. But I believe he would make a fine Fandaniel, and that if he rejects us out of hand, we will all be lesser for it.
    Doesn't strike me as a situation where someone was being judged on their ability to march to the party's drumbeat.
    (15)
    Last edited by Lurina; 05-30-2023 at 12:19 PM.

  4. #4
    Player
    Brinne's Avatar
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    Character
    Raelle Brinn
    World
    Ultros
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    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Lurina View Post
    Doesn't strike me as a situation where someone was being judged on their ability to march to the party's drumbeat.
    I mean, the attempted framing does fit into the pattern we see of trying to squash the Ancients as some generalized entity into those boxes of "cold" and "scary" to make us understand the judgment that they, as a race and civilization, Had To Go - even though that completely falls apart in two seconds if you actually examine them and what they express - which is a wide, diverse, fascinating range of personalities and perspectives within the context they exist in, and a culture that does actually seem to put a premium on responsibility, kindness, and basic decency. (That's not to say, of course, that there wasn't room for improvement. There always is and there always will be.) I guess it's kind of understandable, if unfortunate, because the overt text of Endwalker does do exactly this, so it can be hard to question the precedent set by The Very Text Itself.

    But yes, Hermes feeling so much empathy towards the creations to the point of having a breakdown and shouting in Emet-Selch's face (which he simply took, in silence) seems to actually be exactly what convinces Emet-Selch that he would make an excellent Fandaniel, and that they need his perspective in leadership.

    How do you reconcile things like this, along with things like Elidibus, even in an official capacity, quickly siding with Erichtonios on taking a humane approach to the dilemma of Pandaemonium - and even Lahabrea willing to listen and be reasonable about it - with Endwalker's proclamations about their society? In my opinion, you don't, which is why you see rhetorical tricks being pulled out like suddenly reverting to "the Convocation" as a nebulous entity when making claims about them being morally bankrupt rather than any of the actual people that comprise it that we know, which aligns with gestures like the generic, faceless strawmen in Venat's montage. Endwalker!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunaxia View Post
    I can see why. She is a very fascinating villain.

    (A little disappointed by her final form, though. Was I misguided for hoping for some terrible, Cthulhu-like eldritch abomination after the previous tiers and feeling a little wronged? I thought the extreme depths of her moral depravity might shatter SE's heretofore unrelenting need to give every female-coded villain the same obvious physical characteristics, but alas.)
    Hey, there's still Savage in the wings! Don't give up hope! Hephaistos's Savage-exclusive form was absolutely wild, after all.

    To actually contribute to this discussion of Athena's writing, though (rather than just declaring again that she's my wife - though, for the record, she is my wife) - the JP version of Erich's counter-argument to his mother actually seems to be even more specific about how unacceptable destroying/trampling upon "the life that exists now" in favor of "a new form of life" is, though someone more proficient in Japanese will have to clarify if they feel like it.

    If I still had any faith in the creative team, it'd make me think that in the way Zodiark and Hydaelyn is framed as a battle between "the past" and "the future", then there's an obvious voice that's missing in the midst of that - the voice arguing on behalf of "the present."

    EDIT: I can't figure out how to post images, apparently. Life is true suffering. At least I'll be more equipped against turning into a blasphemy...

    EDIT II: I guess I can just link the JP line instead. Suffering partially averted, path to blasphemy back on the table.

    EDIT III: btw athena is my w--
    (11)
    Last edited by Brinne; 05-31-2023 at 02:16 AM.

  5. #5
    Player
    Yuella's Avatar
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    Feb 2016
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    735
    Character
    Boulder Colorado
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 98
    Quote Originally Posted by Brinne View Post
    It's a little frustrating, I admit, to be interested in talking about the writing parallels between Athena and Venat, only to see the topic immediately get derailed by the same old arguments ignoring the core question entirely and acting like it's a given that well it's okay because Venat was doing it for the greater good, and she did feel bad about it, and we don't know everything she did, and, and!

    ...when, as I said, Pandaemonium's ultimate condemnation of Athena had nothing to do with that entire framework and was instead about the unacceptable cost to the people currently living around her. If Athena's own plan (as opposed to Venat's) of rising to godhood and subsequently erasing, then reshaping, the Ancients, souls, bodies, and all, into something better - and it just so happened to turn out that whatever Athena's version was also capable of dealing with the Endsinger (keeping in mind that Hydaelyn also had no guarantee and no way of knowing if we were up to the task or not)--

    Is the argument that Athena would have been right, as the story argues Venat was?
    Venat knew, or at worst made an educated guess that the ancients couldn't handle Endsinger so she took a chance on us. Her intention was to prepare humanity to face Endsinger.
    Athena at that point didn't know that the Final Days were coming. Her intention was not to prepare humanity to face Endsinger.
    (2)

  6. #6
    Player
    tokinokanatae's Avatar
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    Nov 2019
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    Character
    Amasar Ugund
    World
    Ultros
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    Archer Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuella View Post
    Venat knew, or at worst made an educated guess that the ancients couldn't handle Endsinger so she took a chance on us. Her intention was to prepare humanity to face Endsinger.
    Athena at that point didn't know that the Final Days were coming. Her intention was not to prepare humanity to face Endsinger.
    The question was not whether or not Athena knew about the Endsinger, the question was that if her tinkering with the Ancients had made them resilient to the Endsinger’s attack, would her goals then be justified? Remember, her justification was that Ancients were weak and she wanted to improve them.
    (7)

  7. #7
    Player
    Cleretic's Avatar
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    Sep 2021
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    Solution Eight (it's not as good)
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    Character
    Ein Dose
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Alchemist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by tokinokanatae View Post
    The question was not whether or not Athena knew about the Endsinger, the question was that if her tinkering with the Ancients had made them resilient to the Endsinger’s attack, would her goals then be justified? Remember, her justification was that Ancients were weak and she wanted to improve them.
    No.

    Both to 'would it be justified' and 'would it have made them resilient to the Endsinger'.
    (8)

  8. #8
    Player
    Brinne's Avatar
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    Character
    Raelle Brinn
    World
    Ultros
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    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleretic View Post
    No.

    Both to 'would it be justified'
    Cool.

    and 'would it have made them resilient to the Endsinger'.
    Unrelated to the actual question, but also cool.
    (6)

  9. #9
    Player
    Lunaxia's Avatar
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    Jul 2015
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    Character
    Ashe Sinclair
    World
    Phoenix
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    Thaumaturge Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Brinne View Post
    Cool.

    Unrelated to the actual question, but also cool.
    [Long, awkward silence.]
    (3)

  10. #10
    Player
    Brinne's Avatar
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    Character
    Raelle Brinn
    World
    Ultros
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    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Lunaxia View Post
    [Long, awkward silence.]
    ...

    ...

    ...

    ...Athena is my wife!!!!!
    (3)

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