Bard nerf is good

[Elfidan]

So providing valid discussion points backed by data and experience is just "complaining" huh

That's cool

The devs made what I consider to be a bad decision, and some of you think it's a good decision. I'm presenting my argument against that, nothing more, nothing less. It's a forum. It's meant for discussion.

Data and experience. Your data is based on your opinion. Your experience is questionable at best. No clue who you are. You have a single top 100 finish in Season 4 which was dead, but that doesn't really matter when we're talking about BRD now. People really want BRD to do everything but it's just a support. If you don't like support try one of the many other jobs which aren't support.

Yes when you look at your total posts which is very easy it's just a bunch of complaining.

Typical that someone would be upset when something other players hate gets removed or adjusted. People were already claiming NIN was dead in CC on patch day over the longer limit timer. That didn't age very well either.

[Archeron]

People who actually got to crystal and are actually decent at the game and are either;

A: Not hardstuck in plat.

B: Don't cry about "premades" in casual queue when people ask for a simple duo or trio party to be allowed.

Also, I'm ranking up just fine on DRG/MCH. It's simply not as rewarding or fun.

Oh are you still fuming that I don't agree with you on premades? Don't be a condescending jerk. Maybe people would be more inclined to listen to your point of view.

[Ransu]

Oh are you still fuming that I don't agree with you on premades? Don't be a condescending jerk. Maybe people would be more inclined to listen to your point of view.

You wanna be the pot, or the kettle?

Data and experience. Your data is based on your opinion.

His data was potency numbers. How is that an opinion?

People really want BRD to do everything but it's just a support. If you don't like support try one of the many other jobs which aren't support.

A: Not a support job. The mode is supposed to be role agnostic.

B: No one wants BRD to do everything, but considering from SE's own data source that BRD wasn't exactly dominating games and the top 100 in every season has practically no BRD's in them, its safe to say BRD was fine as it was and didn't need such a strong nerf.

Typical that someone would be upset when something other players hate gets removed or adjusted. People were already claiming NIN was dead in CC on patch day over the longer limit timer. That didn't age very well either.

I see NIN everywhere in FL. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw one in CC, and if I did...they went completely unnoticed with little impact in the match given how basically mediocre they are in CC now.

[Archeron]

You wanna be the pot, or the kettle?

Considering you seem to love throwing shade, I think you're the pot, and a pretty burnt one at that. But keep hiding behind your snarky comments, it's obviously working wonders for your social life.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

Uhh the data is the math? Last I checked, numbers aren't an opinion. And statistically speaking, I'm reasonably confident that you've never even finished T100, even in a "dead" season lol. Understandable that you don't know who I am since we're probably in different matchmaking brackets. And when did I ever say that BRD should do it all? I specifically want BRD to stay in its long-range niche--and the word "niche" is the polar opposite of "generalist". I rotate through 4 jobs, all of which are combative support types--that's what I enjoy playing. I'm fully aware that I'm not supposed to match dedicated DPS in damage, but having a keystone button on my main job basically deleted does indeed warrant a bit of "complaining" I think.

[BurningSoul]

I stand by the opinion that BRD is better in FL than CC. It doesn't bring the damage until it gets BH in FL and in CC you'll hardly notice there is one until you get silenced or you run them down to make it a 4v5. BRD doesn't have the team utility until that LB hits and that can feel like an eternity in CC. It's more effective in FL where you have an army to hide behind and snipe. MCH and DNC at least have flexibility and mobility for the latter. I just find it hilarious that the one thing that BRD has going for it is the ability to cripple DRK and that gets nerfed and DRK goes untouched for another year of Succ Succ FL meta in the US. I'm just glad I got my titles before it hit its peak.

[Valence]

Okay, since you're a Diamond peak/hard stuck Plat, let me give you some answers. I've been Crystal every season, and placed Top 30 in S4 as a BRD main. Sub jobs are DNC/PLD, former SGE main S1-2.

First, winrate balancing. It's an ignorant methodology that doesn't acknowledge survivorship bias as a skewing factor. Put simply, unpopular jobs get flagged for high win%, since its few players are experts and excel among their peers. On the other hand, the players who just keysmash on powerful, popular jobs lower its win%, giving the illusion of balance.

Wanna know what BRD is like in high tier? In S3-S5, there were 1-2 BRD mains in Primal's Top 30. It simply isn't worth the struggle to play such a weak job in a field dominated by people abusing strong jobs to the fullest. For role comparison, ~15 of the T30 spots were melee DPS mains. ~5 were tanks, ~5 were healers/casters, and <5 were phys ranged.

The bulk of BRD's meaningful contribution hinging on Nocturne isn't evidence that it's an overloaded ability. If anything, it shows that the rest of BRD's kit is numerically weak and needs to be glued together by a single high-utility button. Let's do some number crunching (in 6.3 numbers). BRD's fully optimized combo:

6k (Apex) > n/a (Paean) > 8.4k (Blast) > 13230 (Empyrealx3) > 2205 (Repelling) > 8820 (PP) > 2205 (Nocturne) > 8820 (PP) == 49680

Looking at this raw, you only have enough to kill the two squishiest jobs, assuming neither has shielded themselves (BLM/SGE @ 48k). Compare DRG, which can also do most of its optimal burst from 15y range:
4k (Geirs) > 20k (Wyrmwind) > 6250 (Jump) > 12.5k (Heavens') > 2.5k (Roar) > 10k (Chaotic Spring) > 10k (Nastrond) == 63250

All else being equal, that's more than enough to kill the tankiest job (WAR @ 63k).

Say you physically CAN'T get into range for Nocturne now. Realistically, we'd also save Repelling for safety. Where does that leave our burst? In 6.4 numbers:

8k > n/a > 8.4k > 13230 > 8820 == 38450.

Compare WHM with LB--we assume this bc WHM LB is still the fastest charging in the game for some reason.
18k (Purgation) > 12320 (Misery) > 8.8k (Seraph) == 39120 over 2 GCD's.

WHM is now outbursting BRD, with better AoE, while having better utility and godly healing. The kicker? Purgation also provides a 10% damage buff for nearby teammates, plus regen and 10% heal buff, while being on literally half the CD of BRD LB.

BRD had a very narrow toolkit that had to be applied perfectly in order to impact games, and now it's borderline impossible because a salty melee main dev never recognized how difficult it was to be actually be a good BRD. If this depth makes you go "haha too many numbers, tldr"--that's why you'll never rank high. This is what it takes to climb high--especially on a weaker job.

Crystal player here also giving my thumbsup for that post.

There is also a reason certain jobs dominate at top 30/50, namely melee DPS and healers.

[Elfidan]

You wanna be the pot, or the kettle?



His data was potency numbers. How is that an opinion?

The rock of his argument that BRD is too weak is that other jobs can 100 to 0 someone who doesn't interact with their game controls. Saying a DRG can do 63,250 while a BRD does 49,680 is pretty one dimensional when you have CC abilities to limit opposing interaction with the health pool. BRD is a master on confirming kills because it can rapidly fire off its damage compared to a DRG which has to go through various animations to do that damage and has no CC to help limit enemy recuperates and shields. It's like saying this car is really fast but that civic beats it at 0-60. So, the question of opinion here is that damage and damage in a set space of time are not the same. Treating them as such kind of kills the argument.

A: Not a support job. The mode is supposed to be role agnostic.

B: No one wants BRD to do everything, but considering from SE's own data source that BRD wasn't exactly dominating games and the top 100 in every season has practically no BRD's in them, its safe to say BRD was fine as it was and didn't need such a strong nerf.

What precisely do you call a job that adds damage to other jobs while offering multiple crowd control effect? You really do. You want it to do huge damage but retain its other features. We need to move away from this design because it creates problems like NIN. Where you basically have a button for everything and every perceived nerf does nothing consequential.

I see NIN everywhere in FL. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw one in CC, and if I did...they went completely unnoticed with little impact in the match given how basically mediocre they are in CC now.

Maybe on Aether but they are still everywhere on Primal and they still swing a match. People who think that increasing a limit charge timer changes anything don't really understand how things work. Bunshin use to just be rolling all the time and that was busted as all get out. It means you don't have it almost every engage and that is a positive change, but it didn't nerf the job to the floor. Your over dramatic as usual.

I'm sorry you're not happy with your favorite job at the moment but can we stop pretending our intentions are different than they in fact are?

[Eisi]

I welcome the balance discussion cause it tangentially relates to a bunch of play considerations. I talked with a bunch of other crystal players on Discord too who got big impressions as well. New Bard is a blast.

Already climbed from Gold 4 zero stars to 2 stars. Let's go big mode guys.



Update: Had about 60 matches now and got beat down hard, but climbed back to Gold 4 1 star! Never give up!

[Ransu]

The rock of his argument that BRD is too weak is that other jobs can 100 to 0 someone who doesn't interact with their game controls. Saying a DRG can do 63,250 while a BRD does 49,680 is pretty one dimensional when you have CC abilities to limit opposing interaction with the health pool. BRD is a master on confirming kills because it can rapidly fire off its damage compared to a DRG which has to go through various animations to do that damage and has no CC to help limit enemy recuperates and shields. It's like saying this car is really fast but that civic beats it at 0-60. So, the question of opinion here is that damage and damage in a set space of time are not the same. Treating them as such kind of kills the argument.

DRG can do 50k within 2GCDs...

What precisely do you call a job that adds damage to other jobs while offering multiple crowd control effect? You really do. You want it to do huge damage but retain its other features. We need to move away from this design because it creates problems like NIN. Where you basically have a button for everything and every perceived nerf does nothing consequential.

No one ever asked brd to do "huge damage." The only thing I've ever really asked for is for the LB to be redesigned. Outside of that, their damage was fine before. It was really low damage with a small window for burst....burst of which was still weaker than nearly everyone else, but the silence allowed them to secure a kill if played right and now they actually do worse damage and have zero burst.