Bard nerf is good

[Nubrication]

The disparity between White Mage and Bard's overall toolkits? Yes! Here, check my next argument on that:

You clearly don't play BRD and probably don't play more than 1-2 classes so you clearly don't understand. Let me break it down for you so that even a 5th grader can understand: The disparity is:
1. A powerful WHM CC (that means crowd control) got nerfed but all they took away was the range.
2. Whereas a powerful BRD CC (again that means crowd control in this context) had it's range, duration AND damage nerfed.
THAT'S THE DISPARITY.

Oh but what about the disparity between RDM and BRD?
1. RDM DOES NOT NEED it's silence to secure kills BECAUSE IT HAS A HIGH DMG OUTPUT + BURST.
2. BRD NEEDS it's silence to secure kills because IT HAS A LOW DMG OUTPUT TO BEGIN WITH.

Emp arrow at max stacks, does a whopping 12000 damage! WOW! So good, much power.

Animation lock which allows movement, you also replenish via PP and who said you should use Powershot at mid range? What you think Bards couldn't get stormed prior to the nerf?

Animation lock = no bueno, period.
It seems like you're saying that a bard should be constantly moving in and out (kind of like DNC) depending on if silence is ready. But then again, you're not actually saying what you mean, don't be afraid to speak what's actually on your mind.
All that weaving is:
1. Going to lessen the amount of powershots that you use overall BECAUSE you're busy weaving and then look, the enemy is out of LoS (line of sight) now.
2. Less powershot = less emp arrow = less burst = less damage output.

Bard wasn't designed to weave, it was DESIGNED to be played at MAX RANGE consistently. If they changed how PP and POWERSHOT work, then yes, this silence range nerf would work. BUT THEY DIDN'T so there's no SYNERGY. Yes, they (PP and PS) do max dmg at 15y (AKA MID RANGE), 15y is enough to get caught and obliterated just for casting PP and PS. So in the end BARD still has run back to 25y to make sure they can set up for their next burst. Which in THEORY is fine, but THE EXTRA MOVEMENT means less PS + cascading effect. Being at mid-range = MORE DMG TAKEN = more time backing away/more time using elixir = EVEN MORE less PS. If you don't understand this, you clearly don't know how bard works except for "hurr durr 50% burst go boom."

Yeah, that's the fun part! You sell these new considerations as bad when before Bard didn't have to think much in order to utilize it's kit to the maximum potential.

Clearly as a support-dps class they need to use their entire toolkit on themselves during their burst phase instead of actually you know, supporting their allies with said abilities. I know what you're thinking: I'm gonna use his argument against him now! BARD is a support class yada yada ya, keep in mind, even healers and DNC have more dmg output then BRD.

[Nubrication]

Ok, which winrates are we talking about here? You wanna reward skilled play when BRD cropped above 50 in higher tiers for being too powerful, was that because people couldn't LoS?.

If you don't know how LoS works and positioning yourself then you clearly don't deserve to be anywhere near Crystal tier. That's the thing, FFXIV PVP got nerfed so hard that even bad players with no "REAL" skill, no awareness can make it to crystal simply by playing one class really well. In feast we had to know how every single class worked, so most of us played every single class to know the minor caveats and things to look out for when playing against said class. Also what winrates? I'm talking about the nerfs: BRDs got punished for playing their class really well whereas melee basically got rewarded for 0 situational awareness.

Also regarding the "synergy" argument, you must lose your mind looking at the reaper kit. "Just how am I supposed to play this?! Is Arcane Crest for offensive or defense, I don't know!"

RPR HAS SYNERGY, it's entire burst relies on death warrant. Here's a free simple tip for you:
1. Cast death warrant.
2. Cast 8-stack Plentiful Harvest
3. Oh no he, guarded!
4. Cast LB
5. Cast Communio
6. Oh look that tank is dead.

Crazy right? It's almost like RPR toolkit works in synergy.

Should I use Arcane Crest for offensive or defensive? Who the heck uses it for defensive unless you are stopping a crystal push and need to buy time.

All jokes aside: you clearly don't play BRD and you seem to have some vendetta against them because you probably main a melee class. But if you play ALL THE CLASSES without bias, you'll notice that BRD nerf wasn't even necessary.
The only time BRD used to be able to score kills was with silence burst and that's ONLY IF YOUR TEAM knows how to focus down 1 enemy in higher tier games. Because really good healers are a thing. People that peel for and shield teammates are a thing.
In perspective: I play RDM, SCH, AST, BLM, MNK, BRD, PLD, DRK mostly when climbing. BUT I ALSO know how to AND play every class in casual.

[Nubrication]

Bard has 50%+ winrate in higher rankings though, which is why it got nerfed. The way it got nerfed is condusive to a more interesting playstyle as well.

On the other hand - challenge accepted.

Of course I will climb to crystal on Bard but sometimes I will switch things up to keep it interesting.

Sauce? I believe this as much as I believe you play BRD.

[Ransu]

Sauce? I believe this as much as I believe you play BRD.

After season 2 we got official numbers https://www.fanbyte.com/games/news/o...w-pvp-details/

Ironically BRD is under 50% on this chart. Who would have thought? lmao.

Also, if you edit your posts you can go over the character limit. Will save you from wasting your daily post limit on double posts.

[Nubrication]

After season 2 we got official numbers https://www.fanbyte.com/games/news/o...w-pvp-details/

Ironically BRD is under 50% on this chart. Who would have thought? lmao.

Also, if you edit your posts you can go over the character limit. Will save you from wasting your daily post limit on double posts.

Thanks! I didn't know that. I don't forum too much.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

Okay, since you're a Diamond peak/hard stuck Plat, let me give you some answers. I've been Crystal every season, and placed Top 30 in S4 as a BRD main. Sub jobs are DNC/PLD, former SGE main S1-2.

First, winrate balancing. It's an ignorant methodology that doesn't acknowledge survivorship bias as a skewing factor. Put simply, unpopular jobs get flagged for high win%, since its few players are experts and excel among their peers. On the other hand, the players who just keysmash on powerful, popular jobs lower its win%, giving the illusion of balance.

Wanna know what BRD is like in high tier? In S3-S5, there were 1-2 BRD mains in Primal's Top 30. It simply isn't worth the struggle to play such a weak job in a field dominated by people abusing strong jobs to the fullest. For role comparison, ~15 of the T30 spots were melee DPS mains. ~5 were tanks, ~5 were healers/casters, and <5 were phys ranged.

The bulk of BRD's meaningful contribution hinging on Nocturne isn't evidence that it's an overloaded ability. If anything, it shows that the rest of BRD's kit is numerically weak and needs to be glued together by a single high-utility button. Let's do some number crunching (in 6.3 numbers). BRD's fully optimized combo:

6k (Apex) > n/a (Paean) > 8.4k (Blast) > 13230 (Empyrealx3) > 2205 (Repelling) > 8820 (PP) > 2205 (Nocturne) > 8820 (PP) == 49680

Looking at this raw, you only have enough to kill the two squishiest jobs, assuming neither has shielded themselves (BLM/SGE @ 48k). Compare DRG, which can also do most of its optimal burst from 15y range:
4k (Geirs) > 20k (Wyrmwind) > 6250 (Jump) > 12.5k (Heavens') > 2.5k (Roar) > 10k (Chaotic Spring) > 10k (Nastrond) == 63250

All else being equal, that's more than enough to kill the tankiest job (WAR @ 63k).

Say you physically CAN'T get into range for Nocturne now. Realistically, we'd also save Repelling for safety. Where does that leave our burst? In 6.4 numbers:

8k > n/a > 8.4k > 13230 > 8820 == 38450.

Compare WHM with LB--we assume this bc WHM LB is still the fastest charging in the game for some reason.
18k (Purgation) > 12320 (Misery) > 8.8k (Seraph) == 39120 over 2 GCD's.

WHM is now outbursting BRD, with better AoE, while having better utility and godly healing. The kicker? Purgation also provides a 10% damage buff for nearby teammates, plus regen and 10% heal buff, while being on literally half the CD of BRD LB.

BRD had a very narrow toolkit that had to be applied perfectly in order to impact games, and now it's borderline impossible because a salty melee main dev never recognized how difficult it was to be actually be a good BRD. If this depth makes you go "haha too many numbers, tldr"--that's why you'll never rank high. This is what it takes to climb high--especially on a weaker job.

You're probably trolling, but I figured this would a be good time to put out actual good information. Come back with real arguments and experiences when you're back out of plat LOL.

[Eisi]

Animation lock = no bueno, period.

Much preferable if you can move at all, like Bard and unlike Red Mage (who not only has to go into but stay within actual melee range unlike Bard) for their casts.

It seems like you're saying that a bard should be constantly moving in and out (kind of like DNC) depending on if silence is ready. But then again, you're not actually saying what you mean, don't be afraid to speak what's actually on your mind.

What a meaningless statement there. "Someone who actually plays Bard would never support this nerf!"

All that weaving is:
1. Going to lessen the amount of powershots that you use overall BECAUSE you're busy weaving and then look, the enemy is out of LoS (line of sight) now.
2. Less powershot = less emp arrow = less burst = less damage output.

So first of all it wouldn't be moving in and out like Dancer at all for a 25 second cooldown ability it would mostly stay at PS range. So the lessened amount of PSs is nowhere near as dramatic as you make it out to be and also is the point of the nerf. The increased potencies that the patch brought will additionally lessen the impact of this shallow cascade.

Bard wasn't designed to weave, it was DESIGNED to be played at MAX RANGE consistently. If they changed how PP and POWERSHOT work, then yes, this silence range nerf would work. BUT THEY DIDN'T so there's no SYNERGY. Yes, they (PP and PS) do max dmg at 15y (AKA MID RANGE), 15y is enough to get caught and obliterated just for casting PP and PS. So in the end BARD still has run back to 25y to make sure they can set up for their next burst. Which in THEORY is fine, but THE EXTRA MOVEMENT means less PS + cascading effect. Being at mid-range = MORE DMG TAKEN = more time backing away/more time using elixir = EVEN MORE less PS. If you don't understand this, you clearly don't know how bard works except for "hurr durr 50% burst go boom."

I have no idea how you can write this all up and completely miss that YES that is the point!

It's to create anti-synergy within the kit and punish Bard for staying safely at range all the time while also having to go ranged OBVIOUSLY. Your job as a player is to keep this in mind and play accordingly, no longer can you safely stay at max range and fish for kills in an ideal situation which btw with proper LoSing wasn't the case before the nerf ANYWAY except it wasn't directly enforced by the kit.

Clearly as a support-dps class they need to use their entire toolkit on themselves during their burst phase instead of actually you know, supporting their allies with said abilities. I know what you're thinking: I'm gonna use his argument against him now! BARD is a support class yada yada ya, keep in mind, even healers and DNC have more dmg output then BRD.

How does that even make any sense? Why would I use Bard not being able to support their allies as an argument that Bard is a support job?

If you don't know how LoS works and positioning yourself then you clearly don't deserve to be anywhere near Crystal tier.

Correct. Great argument again - if you are bad you don't deserve to be in high ranks, what a based comment, finally someone says it!

That's the thing, FFXIV PVP got nerfed so hard that even bad players with no "REAL" skill, no awareness can make it to crystal simply by playing one class really well. In feast we had to know how every single class worked, so most of us played every single class to know the minor caveats and things to look out for when playing against said class. Also what winrates? I'm talking about the nerfs: BRDs got punished for playing their class really well whereas melee basically got rewarded for 0 situational awareness.

Meaningless drivel. What winrates? Job winrates in CC, the winrates that the team uses to adjust jobs.

All jokes aside: you clearly don't play BRD and you seem to have some vendetta against them because you probably main a melee class. But if you play ALL THE CLASSES without bias, you'll notice that BRD nerf wasn't even necessary.
The only time BRD used to be able to score kills was with silence burst and that's ONLY IF YOUR TEAM knows how to focus down 1 enemy in higher tier games. Because really good healers are a thing. People that peel for and shield teammates are a thing.

Focusing down one enemy should be possible in higher tiers. Bards will still score kills the same way after the nerf, it's just gonna come with an interesting wrinkle.

In perspective: I play RDM, SCH, AST, BLM, MNK, BRD, PLD, DRK mostly when climbing. BUT I ALSO know how to AND play every class in casual.

I play mostly SGE, BRD, MNK, RPR, GNB and DNC. I also play all jobs, but I don't know how to play all of them well.

Sauce? I believe this as much as I believe you play BRD.

Check EVERY PVP adjustment page for every patch since 6.1, winrates are constantly mentioned.

Just from this last one alone let's check:

Paladin: "(...)win rates for paladin were observed to be somewhat low."

Dragoon: "(...)having observed their win rates, we believe there is still a little room for improvement(...)"

Ninja: "(...)their win rate has settled around the average(...)"

Sage: "(...)we found the win rates for sage to be falling behind".


Now you have to believe me that I play Bard.

After season 2 we got official numbers https://www.fanbyte.com/games/news/o...w-pvp-details/

Ironically BRD is under 50% on this chart. Who would have thought? lmao.

Thanks Ransu, the date was July 29, 2022. When Bard was below average, yeah.

Okay, since you're a Diamond peak/hard stuck Plat, let me give you some answers. I've been Crystal every season, and placed Top 30 in S4 as a BRD main. Sub jobs are DNC/PLD, former SGE main S1-2.

First, winrate balancing. It's an ignorant methodology that doesn't acknowledge survivorship bias as a skewing factor. Put simply, unpopular jobs get flagged for high win%, since its few players are experts and excel among their peers. On the other hand, the players who just keysmash on powerful, popular jobs lower its win%, giving the illusion of balance.

Wanna know what BRD is like in high tier? In S3-S5, there were 1-2 BRD mains in Primal's Top 30. It simply isn't worth the struggle to play such a weak job in a field dominated by people abusing strong jobs to the fullest. For role comparison, ~15 of the T30 spots were melee DPS mains. ~5 were tanks, ~5 were healers/casters, and <5 were phys ranged.

Wait, so out of the Top 30 players two of them, aka 1/15 were a Bard? With 19 jobs in the game? And you use that as evidence that Bard is weak?

The bulk of BRD's meaningful contribution hinging on Nocturne isn't evidence that it's an overloaded ability. If anything, it shows that the rest of BRD's kit is numerically weak and needs to be glued together by a single high-utility button. Let's do some number crunching (in 6.3 numbers).

That's exactly it. Bard needs the rest of its kit improved rather than forcing this lame playstyle of staying at max range. Silent Nocturne is still the central Bard ability and to range nerf it made the job a million times more interesting.

I reached the cap!

If you don't want to believe them bc you think you're some sort of genius stuck in elo hell, then just stay stuck I guess LOL

So you also don't believe me when I say I play Bard? Because why in Allah's name would I celebrate a nerf if I wanted to get out of elo hell. I care about having an enjoyable experience with the job and Bard was way too lame and I am glad they switched things up.

You must be the guy who thinks snipers are overpowered in shooter games bc you have no idea how to take cover or flank their positions.

I would be the sniper who enjoys being forced to go in a bit once in a while. Also you think the situation now may be less of that particular kind of challenge but overall a much greater challenge no doubt.

You are peak Dunning-Krueger my dude

And you are peak impostor syndrome! Quit it!

Ok I'm tired of the edit wars so I'm gonna leave you with this. A Top 30 player is telling you why your Plat assumptions are incorrect. Maybe you should listen.

Go back, and actually read my first post. Don't read it so you can formulate a response, read it so you actually understand what I'm saying. Good luck in queues and try to play with a more open mind, because whatever you believe right now clearly isn't working.

Edit: how am I impostor syndrome LOL

Wait I thought you were tired of the edit wars Because I'm Dunning-Kruger. Obviously I'm grateful for any Bard tips!

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

You are peak Dunning-Krueger my dude

Pro tip: you are not as clever as you think you are, and the way you're unpacking what you believe to be dev reasoning for an unwarranted nerf shows that your understanding and knowledge of the game are very lacking. Players who are better than you, who have gotten better results than you, are trying to tell you why you're wrong. If you don't want to believe them bc you think you're some sort of genius stuck in elo hell, then just stay stuck I guess LOL

Wait, so out of the Top 30 players two of them, aka 1/15 were a Bard? With 19 jobs in the game? And you use that as evidence that Bard is weak?

See the survivorship bias. The argument also wasn't that BRD was absolutely weak--if that were the case, it would end up like one of the many jobs that were not represented at all in T30 mains. The argument was that BRD wasn't STRONG--still playable, but not strong. Definitely weak relative to the jobs represented in T100. In any case, the other BRD main switched to RDM and I retired from Top 100 gameplay bc it wasn't worth the stress. So now there are.....no BRD mains in T30, as of last Season.

That's exactly it. Bard needs the rest of its kit improved rather than forcing this lame playstyle of staying at max range. Silent Nocturne is still the central Bard ability and to range nerf it made the job a million times more interesting.

If you think that playing optimally at max range is lame and boring and easy, in a game that is filled to the brim with gap closers and crowd control... Like if that's not your cup of tea, cool. But some of us enjoy that challenge, and BRD was the only job that really catered to that playstyle. You must be the guy who thinks snipers are overpowered in shooter games bc you have no idea how to take cover or flank their positions.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

Ok I'm tired of the edit wars so I'm gonna leave you with this. A Top 30 player is telling you why your Plat assumptions are incorrect. Maybe you should listen.

Go back, and actually read my first post. Don't read it so you can formulate a response, read it so you actually understand what I'm saying. Good luck in queues and try to play with a more open mind, because whatever you believe right now clearly isn't working.

Edit: how am I impostor syndrome LOL

[Nubrication]

Much preferable if you can move at all, like Bard and unlike Red Mage (who not only has to go into but stay within actual melee range unlike Bard) for their casts.

It's almost as if RDM doesn't have shields, a really strong aoe debuff/buff and 2 gap closers and 2 backsteps. Once again, you should probably learn all the classes before you actually try comparing them. Do you know how a BRD even procs it's defensive buff? IT NEEDS TO REMOVE A CC. Which means if nobody decides to CC you, you're still that squishy that blows up. Like you said earlier, people STORM BRDs even prior to this patch.

What you think Bards couldn't get stormed prior to the nerf?

What a meaningless statement there. "Someone who actually plays Bard would never support this nerf!"

Same can be said for your statement. I still don't know how you expect BRDs to play now because you keep using passive aggressive comments that make no sense instead of just saying how you expect them to play.

So first of all it wouldn't be moving in and out like Dancer at all for a 25 second cooldown ability it would mostly stay at PS range. So the lessened amount of PSs is nowhere near as dramatic as you make it out to be and also is the point of the nerf. The increased potencies that the patch brought will additionally lessen the impact of this shallow cascade.

If you actually read properly, you would know that I said move in for silence, move out for PS spam (so BRD would still stay mostly in "PS range"). You're basically repeating what I said. Which makes my previous comment from the previous post still stand. Did you even play BRD in ranked this season yet? But at least you finally made your opinion clear. BTW max dmg range for PS is 15y, max range for the same skill is 25y.

I have no idea how you can write this all up and completely miss that YES that is the point!

It's to create anti-synergy within the kit and punish Bard for staying safely at range all the time while also having to go ranged OBVIOUSLY. Your job as a player is to keep this in mind and play accordingly, no longer can you safely stay at max range and fish for kills in an ideal situation which btw with proper LoSing wasn't the case before the nerf ANYWAY except it wasn't directly enforced by the kit.

LMAO, any class that does not have synergy with it's toolkit WILL under-perform. Yes, I know that was the intent, in theory it was good, but in reality it's NOT because BRD DOES NOT HAVE THE TOOLKIT TO SUPPORT it. You think a 2000 potency Apex buff was gonna offset everything else from the domino effect? You think the buff to paean was gonna make BRD more tanky mid range? Just don't CC the BRD with paean and then afterwards, blow him up.

Correct. Great argument again - if you are bad you don't deserve to be in high ranks, what a based comment, finally someone says it!

I'm glad we could find common ground! Thank god, I was worried you would have a platinum mindset forever. BTW plat is not high tier. Diamond + is high tier.

Focusing down one enemy should be possible in higher tiers. Bards will still score kills the same way after the nerf, it's just gonna come with an interesting wrinkle.

You wouldn't know this but in Crystal tier, even prior to this patch - people know how to swap targets. Bard is close and out of position? Easy kill. BTW, high tier games can burst a tank down in less time than you can cast guard - I'm not even exaggerating. Now imagine BRD in this scenario.

What class(es) DO you main?

P.S.

That's exactly it. Bard needs the rest of its kit improved rather than forcing this lame playstyle of staying at max range. Silent Nocturne is still the central Bard ability and to range nerf it made the job a million times more interesting.

Brah, this IS EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO YOU. And you already know the solution. BRD players are not saying that the silence nerf is inherently bad (even though it is overkill to take 3 things away) but BRD's toolkit DOES NOT CURRENTLY SUPPORT the nerf. So PS AND PP need to be changed it order for BRD to work.