Bard nerf is good

[Ransu]

I don't think it gives that poor of feedback. You have a little icon over your head and BRD nocturn animation is pretty flashy. I usually notice right away when I get silenced.

[Valence]

Very subjective. I'm a very visual person and things tend to get drowns pretty hard into the gigantic fx mess that fights can be (that's how you can miss a guard or a drg LB in the middle of an explosion of visual effects around the crystal, etc). I usually notice the silence, like a lot of effects directly affecting me, through sound, which filters everything way better than visuals. But I know some people are definitely not following sound cues.

I'll actually have to check out the nocturne animation, I've never seen it stand out, and certainly not that overhead icon.

[Ransu]

Very subjective. I'm a very visual person and things tend to get drowns pretty hard into the gigantic fx mess that fights can be (that's how you can miss a guard or a drg LB in the middle of an explosion of visual effects around the crystal, etc). I usually notice the silence, like a lot of effects directly affecting me, through sound, which filters everything way better than visuals. But I know some people are definitely not following sound cues.

I'll actually have to check out the nocturne animation, I've never seen it stand out, and certainly not that overhead icon.

Its the giant swirly animation to the right.

[yaba_gabagool]

If bard was easy and could easily climb before then I would like to hear from those who got all the way up the ranks playing solely as bards. Have either of you guys done that?

I liked bard. But it's reliant on team members to get someone to 50%. At 50% you have a reliable burst combo with silence to kill someone.

So like Ninja, but you can't chain it, you don't have a ton of survivability, you don't have a ton of escapes, and you dont have a ton of mobility.

Wait, why hasn't ninja been nerfed in a meaningful way yet?

[Eisi]

Yoyo, I caught some arguments from other people!

BRD's fully optimized combo:

that's technically sort of correct but ignores a lot of things that you can't ignore in a real match
and in the search for highest possible damage, it overlooks the value of silence as a purify check

6k (Apex) > n/a (Paean) > 8.4k (Blast) > 13230 (Empyrealx3) > 2205 (Repelling) > 8820 (PP) > 2205 (Nocturne) > 8820 (PP) == 49680

when possible you want to lead with Apex to have Blast ready for your burst phase, and using nocturne so late in the burst gives the target an opportunity to recup or guard

you don't want to play super close, but it's generally pretty rare that you're playing at 20-25y since you don't wanna have them walk out of your range either

Looking at this raw, you only have enough to kill the two squishiest jobs, assuming neither has shielded themselves (BLM/SGE @ 48k). Compare DRG, which can also do most of its optimal burst from 15y range:
4k (Geirs) > 20k (Wyrmwind) > 6250 (Jump) > 12.5k (Heavens') > 2.5k (Roar) > 10k (Chaotic Spring) > 10k (Nastrond) == 63250

you did almost 20k in 1 ogcd with both apex+blast and silence

drg takes multiple gcds to setup burst and has more dmg overall but a buffed 3 empyrean stack is literally one of the highest 1 ogcd burst windows

jp bards would just 321 silence in soloq and their team would delete the burst target in the second it takes to press purify

and you only kill faster in scrims when all 5 people are in call with you

you can still paeon yourself and bait burst on you for 25% mit

or burst out of your own guard

paeon is an insane support buff and drg has no way to stop a dude from recuping and walking away from their burst


they do different things

like jeez, i’d hope bard’s damage output isn’t comparable to drg

Compare WHM with LB--we assume this bc WHM LB is still the fastest charging in the game for some reason.
18k (Purgation) > 12320 (Misery) > 8.8k (Seraph) == 39120 over 2 GCD's.

WHM is now outbursting BRD, with better AoE, while having better utility and godly healing. The kicker? Purgation also provides a 10% damage buff for nearby teammates, plus regen and 10% heal buff, while being on literally half the CD of BRD LB.

drg exists to pump dmg

bard has cc, one of the best support buffs in the game tn with paeon, is a walking lb battery on top

making the comparison to drg and whm makes 0 sense

The short version is the WHM poly range nerf didn't ruin the job, and the BRD silence range nerf won't ruin the job either

BRD had a very narrow toolkit that had to be applied perfectly in order to impact games, and now it's borderline impossible because a salty melee main dev never recognized how difficult it was to be actually be a good BRD. If this depth makes you go "haha too many numbers, tldr"--that's why you'll never rank high. This is what it takes to climb high--especially on a weaker job.

This is not directly adressed at this but related:

(the nerf was) absolutely warranted LMFAO

back before bard wasnt as good mostly because of their lb, but that got patched ages ago, after they made changes to where it affected them, made it go through walls, and became an aura

it pretty much helped them a ton

but even before they have had the shortest burst in game and made getting picks extremely easy while being extremely safe (25y is old poly distance, fyi) so good bards could absolutely help their team snowball insanely fast after 1 good silence

a good thing to consider is that silence requires you to press purify which means 1 skill you have to press before spamming recupe and if players are good, they'll pop you the moment you're called

it was essentially a resource check if you got silence'd because you would be guaranteed to eat around 28k along with additional damage

You're probably trolling, but I figured this would a be good time to put out actual good information. Come back with real arguments and experiences when you're back out of plat LOL.

I copied these couple of arguments from a bunch of peepz in crystal for you to enjoy if you like!

Very important as well, someone with a counterposition:


I dont really think comparing the BRD silence range change to the WHM and saying BRD will be minimal because WHM's will turn out to be true.

WHM has a 20y jump in, so a WHM can just plan around that, yea you dont have the immediacy because you will be waiting 1s for the jump animation to be done, but WHM had an ability that assisted with minimizing the strength of the change.

BRD doesnt have anything comparable. BRD will need to be a follow up CC, delayed for after purify, or they will need to be walking in closer to do that. This means risking being the focus to do that.

The biggest thing with this change is - BRD could previously help, to a degree, in killing people who are running away. You pretty much cant do that anymore unless you are playing perma 10y to 15y by the target. You are already slower then other jobs while dpsing (except casters once they run out of utility)from spamming powerful shot between deciding your bursts. If suddenly an opportunity arises, they may be beyond 15y, and you need to stop dps to run in to get close enough to silence.

I also dont understand people saying that suddenly the LB change was what made BRD OP. Yea the LB is wayyy easier to use, but BRD LB remains mediocre compared to any other jobs LB. Being able to put on pressure and continue that pressure is what matters, and BRD LB never helped with that, it comes up way to late compared to other LBs.

What made BRD good/OP(?) was its basic kit, which was pretty much unchanged since S1. It has some burst, but its not as good as other jobs burst. Its strength was constant dps (is that even a strength?), and its silence.

The change to the silence range is very dramatic, maybe the nerf wont be significant in win rate (I wont hold my breathe), but it will only be because of dramatic playstyle changes, which WHM basically didnt have to do at all.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

Sure, let's go through it.

Of course the fully optimized combos were presented in a vacuum of "all else being equal"--I caveated that when I presented them. The point being made was that BRD does NOT, in fact, have the 1-button burst that people keep trying to claim it does. It's this "insane bard burst" that always gets claimed as either a reason the silence should've been nerfed, or claimed as still-existing compensation for said nerf. It's just not true.

when possible you want to lead with Apex to have Blast ready for your burst phase, and using nocturne so late in the burst gives the target an opportunity to recup or guard
you don't want to play super close, but it's generally pretty rare that you're playing at 20-25y since you don't wanna have them walk out of your range either

Nocturne and Paean are interchangeable in the combo, depending on the circumstance. Also, if you're committing full burst to someone who still has significant recup/guard available, you're doing it wrong. It's an option on other jobs that only have their burst tied to static cooldowns in order to force out defensive options, but BRD needs to build Empyreal back up over a very long time. BRD is much stronger as a post-Guard burster and kill securer. And you absolutely want to be playing at 20-25y, depending on the target being engaged. You need to maintain the ability to quickly outrange enemy ranged burst/crowd control, especially if you're spending Paean as often as you should be.

Of course, that's not always the case--on the opposite hand, there are many times when you must be contesting the Crystal itself. At that point, you have no choice but to deal minimum damage with PS/PP and it feels horrible to play. BRD is quite possibly the lowest impact job to physically contest the Crystal with, which is a point I haven't seen brought up much yet.

you did almost 20k in 1 ogcd with both apex+blast and silence

drg takes multiple gcds to setup burst and has more dmg overall but a buffed 3 empyrean stack is literally one of the highest 1 ogcd burst windows

Not sure where this comes from, bc Apex and Blast are both GCD's, and silence does no damage anymore. If we include the PP for benefit of the doubt, in 6.4 numbers that's 8k+8.4k+8820=25220 over 2 GCD's. DRG Geirs+Wyrmwind+High Jump is 29k in 1 GCD with a pre-weave and post-weave. If the target falls below 50% HP, Geirs+Wyrm+Nast is 34k in the same amount of time.

The only GCD that DRG needs to set up its burst is Elusive Jump, which can be done pre-emptively and requires no target. Re-stacking Empyreal Arrow, by comparison, is a chore. You get 1 stack (4k potency) every 15s, and a PS every 2.4s to help reduce that cooldown by 5s. This means to fully re-stack Empyreal takes ~7s/3 GCD's per PS-enabled stack, which requires actively engaging a target. How is that significant? Other jobs that only have static cooldowns can just LoS and drink Elixir between burst windows. BRD has to constantly stay fighting, meaning they're much more susceptible to poke and chip damage. For each stack of Empyreal that BRD gives up in favor of healing, subtract 4410 from that absolutely bonkers 13230 single-target burst.

A fully buffed 3-stack Empyreal is only 13230 damage (14553 if you count LB buffs), the math has already been done for them. That is clearly nowhere near the highest one-button burst available anywhere. Again, DRG gets a 20k Wyrmwind Thrust in one button just for pressing Geirskogul beforehand. MCH gets a 20k Drill that ignores Guard just for pressing Analysis beforehand. I could go on and on but the point is that calling Empyreal a contender for strongest burst is wildly wrong.

jp bards would just 321 silence in soloq and their team would delete the burst target in the second it takes to press purify

And this is different from Seraph Strike (20y range)+Miracle of Nature how? Oh yeah, MoN can't be purified and BRD has no gap closer. Or Analysed Air Anchor (25y range)?

This is different from NIN having a targeted 20y Raiju stun how? Or PLD Intervene (20y range)+Shield Bash? Or MNK Thunderclap (20y range)+Six-sided Star? Or SAM Soten (20y range)+Mineuchi? Or RDM White Shift Resolution (25y line AoE with THE SAME COOLDOWN AS NOCTURNE)?

The ability to time crowd control to secure kills is a skill, and it shouldn't be a reason to gut a button that isn't even the best-in-slot at doing its job. Let me re-emphasize White Shift Resolution here. It does 8k damage in a 25y line AoE that silences everyone it hits. Nocturne pre-nerf did 2k to a single target, and only silenced one person.

you can still paeon yourself and bait burst on you for 25% mit

or burst out of your own guard

paeon is an insane support buff and drg has no way to stop a dude from recuping and walking away from their burst

First of all, you don't bait burst with Paean. You pre-empt crowd control with Paean if you want any benefits from it, and the only time you spend it on yourself instead of an ally is if you know you're about to be dived. I can tell you from experience that 25% mit/25% heal boost is often not enough to survive even two competent divers. The 25% mitigation gives you 63750 effective HP, which can easily be instabursted between 2 or 3 competent players. It's a significantly better expenditure on a pure healer or a heal-based tank (eg PLD/WAR), because of the 25% healing amp + those jobs are much, much more likely to be the target of crowd control. Spending Paean on yourself means, by definition, that it is no longer available as "an insane support buff" for anyone else.

"DRG has no way to stop a dude from recuping and walking away" well, now neither does BRD unless I'm close enough to hold hands. Hope everyone's happy with that (not everyone is happy with that).

it was essentially a resource check if you got silence'd because you would be guaranteed to eat around 28k along with additional damage

Calling silence a "resource check" definitely belies their level of play here. It's not a check on resources, it's primarily a tool for securing kills on someone who you KNOW has no Purify/Guard left, to lock them out of Recuperate and/or job-organic defensives/mobility. Binding with Repelling Shot is more often the resource check, testing the waters to see if you could punish someone who was playing out of position with unknown resources available. And this is exactly what I keep saying--disrespecting the silence and then dying to the silence is a deserved death. It's a single-target ability that can be purified. If the BRD caught you or a teammate with no resources, properly communicated/coordinated burst with their team (remember, BRD can't kill anyone on its own!), and then executed the silence+burst--THEN THEY PLAYED WELL AND DID THEIR JOB. Complaining about dying in that situation is no different than complaining that SAM LB killed you because you were disrespecting the Chiten cooldown.

The biggest thing with this change is - BRD could previously help, to a degree, in killing people who are running away. You pretty much cant do that anymore unless you are playing perma 10y to 15y by the target. You are already slower then other jobs while dpsing (except casters once they run out of utility)from spamming powerful shot between deciding your bursts. If suddenly an opportunity arises, they may be beyond 15y, and you need to stop dps to run in to get close enough to silence.

This is 100% correct. BRD now has to actively chase people down if you want to use your utility, which means your already-low damage gets even lower, because a) you can't shoot while running, and b) PS/PP range restrictions.

[Eisi]

Hard capped at plat is all people need to see lol.

Come back with real arguments and experiences when you're back out of plat LOL.

It's okay to give up on delusions!

I did it peepz!!!!

https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...?dcgroup=Light



All the way from Gold 4 to Crystal. And I didn't even play any job other than Bard this season!

It was a blast to be sure! The best matches were when the team felt like it really harmonized well together. I gotta get more experience tho!

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I did it peepz!!!!

https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...?dcgroup=Light



All the way from Gold 4 to Crystal. And I didn't even play any job other than Bard this season!

It was a blast to be sure! The best matches were when the team felt like it really harmonized well together. I gotta get more experience tho!

Careful someone might come out and say "yeah but it would've been easier with other jobs" or "yeah but someone had to pull extra weight for it".

You know, since there's always an excuse.

[Eisi]

Careful someone might come out and say "yeah but it would've been easier with other jobs" or "yeah but someone had to pull extra weight for it".

You know, since there's always an excuse.

Nah .

It's a given that Bard needs other members of the team to capitalize on our traits whereas Bards themselves can be maybe more easily carried by other players. But we have a rather broad baseline of great players on Light we can capitalize on as Bards, the "groundwork" so to speak in terms of other more pioneer jobs has been done.

It feels like the scene is still dynamically evolving so I have no clear idea yet what unique strategies people might pull to deal with Bards for good or ill, but it's probably my lack of experience.

I still believe that the Bard nerf was appropriate primarily with regards to range, especially since one of the most important lessons I learned while climbing was how much damage you have to forfeit, how much distance you willingly have to close even while disregarding Silent Nocturne in general - particularly with respects to Volcanic Heart - and none of the mathematical counterarguments have been convincing me, but I'm not a top 30 player like Myrha (yet).

The best thing though is that Bard is fun. I feel important to the team, not in terms of raw power, but buffs, lightning fast burst, amazing CC and the best Anti-CC in the game. I have not yet experienced that feeling that the job itself is lacking, however that might be blissful ignorance. Bard is the only job I have played into Crystal and only gathered experience in Diamond with Sage and Platinum with Monk and Reaper. Also I'm the type of guy that can't actually carry on Dragoon, just because I can't get over my dislike of how the job plays, what does it say about me?