TOP cleared with no healers

[ForteNightshade]

/sigh

Why was there a Tank shortage in SB?

...and NOT in ShB?

There wasn't.

The tank popular has more or less remained the same throughout all the expansions. Shadowbringers show a spike upwards because of Gunbreaker being the new hotness just like Sage did for Endwalker. New jobs will always spike role population.

You're "/sighing" despite making a bunch of baseless nonsense you provided zero evidence for but still stated as fact. What even is this?

[Deceptus]

Healers and tanks is the least played role in every mmo, it's not just an ffxiv thing..
There will always be more players who play dps than tank/heal..
So it's not uncommon or surprising to see.. bc thats how it has been since forever..

Designing the healers in this game to be braindead (the exact same dps rotation from lvl 4 to lvl 90) isn't helping bolster their ranks is it?

[Renathras]

There wasn't.

The tank popular has more or less remained the same throughout all the expansions. Shadowbringers show a spike upwards because of Gunbreaker being the new hotness just like Sage did for Endwalker. New jobs will always spike role population.

You're "/sighing" despite making a bunch of baseless nonsense you provided zero evidence for but still stated as fact. What even is this?

Wait, so your argument is that there was never a Tank shortage at all in SB?

Interesting...

My sighing is because you demand evidence that, 5-6 years on, is very difficult to find. Doing some searches, I can't even find Yoshi P's original Q/A statements on Gunbreaker at all, just tons of random internet chatter about it (being a DPS playstyle, btw). SGE playing like a DPS, despite being much more recent, is also difficult to find an original source for. The reason I'm /sighing is because it's something people have talked about for literally years - both the Tank shortage and GNB's purpose - but you're asking for something specific that is very difficult to find, which I suspect you know it is, despite it showing you would be wrong with an overly hyperbolic statement you made that you pulled out of your butt.

You're trying to put the onus on me to prove Yoshi P every said anything about wanting people to play Tanks when you were the one that introduced the claim he hadn't done so in 10 years. Baseless nonsense you completely made up and provided zero evidence for but stated as fact. What even is this?

Can you prove your statement? Specifically, can you prove:

Notice how in nearly a decade, he hasn't come out asking players to play tanks.

This is a baseless statement you made and have stated as a fact without evidence. Can you prove it? What even is this?

[Deceptus]

First, the Level 90 (which is what counts; 1-59 tells you very little since there's only 1 Healer Job even AT levels 1-30), and notice that from 70-90, the three left circles and once you have all Healing Jobs, the nuumber is stable across them?

followed by Typical Ren Gish Gallop

"Only max level counts" is a terrible argument. If that was the case why does leveling even exist? The game needs to be balanced for all facets of play with proper incentives and engagement.

Guess what game also basically says "only endgame matters". World of Warcraft, and it's one of the myriad of reasons people are running from that game and sub numbers are continuously dropping. The journey MATTERS.

BTW, you really need to learn how to condense your points. Typing out a 2 page essay for every reply makes people tune out really quickly.

[ZephyrMenodora]

/sigh

Why was there a Tank shortage in SB?

...and NOT in ShB?

EDIT:



I wasn't talking "authoritative", good god.

I was saying that looking at the Aion classes, one seemed to be a focused Healer, two seemed to have some Healing but were more Support roles, and one seemed to be...not a Healer at all. Moreover, the person saying the Healer "and support" (their own term) roles were the majority never provided data to support that conclusion anyway, nor which classes they were calling "Healers" for the purpose of that argument.

You invented the idea that I was definitively saying what they were, despite my post saying things like "seems like", and instead of saying "Well, here's how they played and what they actually did", you chose to be disparaging instead. Moreover, it sounds like reading your response, that my initial conclusions were fairly accurate.

"did not play at all like" - okay, so what FFXIV Job DID Chanter play like? If the answer is "well, none of them", then the comparison in the first place is meaningless and unhelpful.

Which FFXIV Job DID Chanter play like?

If the answer is none of them, what is the CLOSEST?

Which FFXIV Job does Songweaver play like?

If the answer is none of them, what is the CLOSEST?

Did Cleric even play like any FFXIV Job? If so, which? If not, which is CLOSEST?

Chanter would be like a melee bard with backup heals. Mid tier damage at melee range but constant modest buffs on your party. The backup heals were strong if you took those skills but not good enough to heal top content alone. Not great if they went into more dps. They had to choose.

Think Bard in EQ2 if you ever played that. But with more heals and less impressive buffs. Chanter was the only support class at launch and I think was their version of bard at the time.

Cleric would be White Mage. It was the only pure healer. They did bad damage in heal specs and gear but could do amazing damage in dps spec and gear. They had to drop big heals for big damage.

Clerics were versatile and often viewed as OP. They were one of the few classes that could solo harder content that other classes could not so it attracted a lot of that type of player. Plus they were always needed and in demand. Some groups would even take two clerics.

Some people played song weaver like a Red Mage (I guess?) Or you could say XIv Bard with better heals and cc. They could also choose to spec for more damage or more support. They had a good amount of healing and defensive buffs if they choose that path. They also could do strong burst damage if they chose those skills.

What makes Aion interesting is most classes had two specs so the same class felt a but different as you didn’t have your full kit at all times. You had to pick between a certain number of interchangeable skills which changed a lot of what the class could do.

[Renathras]

....

Ah, the usual Deceptus Gish Gallop.

Did you notice, by chance, where I pointed out the level 70-90 number should be used? Did you notice WHERE I SAID WHY? What was the reason I gave? Perhaps you might notice that's also why I didn't make a "Only max level counts" argument. Perhaps you should try reading people's posts instead of saying they're "Gish Gallop", not reading them, and putting your foot in your mouth when responding inappropriately.

Chanter would be like a melee bard with backup heals.

So like RDM if Embolden was more consistently up?

Cleric would be White Mage. It was the only pure healer. They did bad damage in heal specs and gear but could do amazing damage in dps spec and gear. They had to drop big heals for big damage.

Clerics were versatile and often viewed as OP. They were one of the few classes that could solo harder content that other classes could not so it attracted a lot of that type of player. Plus they were always needed and in demand. Some groups would even take two clerics.

Hm. Doesn't sound like there are any FFXIV Jobs like that. RDM has been used like that in the past (soloing old content) along with PLD, but neither can really be speced into doing great Healing, and PLD can't do great damage...and RDM does (for DPS Jobs) relatively low damage.

Sounds like the Aion classes aren't very comparable to FFXIV Jobs due to the spec system, kinda like how WoW classes can't really be compared to FFXIV Jobs, you have to talk about the individual specs (e.g. Holy Priest compared to White Mage as opposed to WoW Priest compared directly)?

[ty_taurus]

SGE playing like a DPS, despite being much more recent, is also difficult to find an original source for.

I found a source in about 2 minutes or so... There are probably other examples to. Here's the link: https://youtu.be/8_mdi8RMbRk?t=1236

"Our thought process behind Sage was where we looked at what the players were demanding. And we had a lot of demands come in from the players who go into high-end content. For example, raids and such. And those types of players, they were playing healers, but they wanted more opportunities to attack the enemy rather than just healing... So, based on that, we thought, 'Ok, what can we do?' So we designed Sage so that the Sage can attack and then can also heal or have a barrier effect on another player."

There's more to that quote. He's ultimate describing Kardia as a system, although you can't actually apply barriers through Kardia so I'm assuming that was something it could do during the conception of the job and they took that away for some reason. After that quote, there's also a reference to Toxikon that you can earn for when the barrier runs out. Now, Addersting isn't anything close to a desirable resource that you actively care to generate unlike the Blood Lilly, but that made me think about something interesting.

We could just say that SE was tone deaf to Toxikon being a 100% DPS loss to actively generate, which isn't unbelievable giving Misery sat at a 25% DPS loss for nearly 2.5 years, but if Sage actually did have a way to apply a barrier through Kardia at some point during its development, what if that barrier breaking also gave you Addersting? That's exactly how it works in PVP, and that's a system that actually makes a lot of sense. Your DoT also generates a barrier that gives you a mobility resource, but because it's your DoT you don't spam it to generate Addersting constantly and it would give you an actually worthwhile stream of Addersting stacks throughout the course of a fight even if it stays the same potency as Dosis. But that's all speculation. Honestly a lot of healer-related potency issues get completely overlooked even when they're blatantly obvious. Toxikon's potency doesn't increase at level 72, so Toxikon is weirdly even worse between 72 and 82, and similarly Afflatus Misery is just a flat 1240 potency, so it's a 40 potency net positive between 74 and 82 for WHM as well. Really easy things to fix that continue to go completely under the radar.

[Deceptus]

We could just say that SE was tone deaf to Toxikon being a 100% DPS loss to actively generate, which isn't unbelievable giving Misery sat at a 25% DPS loss for nearly 2.5 years, but if Sage actually did have a way to apply a barrier through Kardia at some point during its development, what if that barrier breaking also gave you Addersting? That's exactly how it works in PVP, and that's a system that actually makes a lot of sense. Your DoT also generates a barrier that gives you a mobility resource, but because it's your DoT you don't spam it to generate Addersting constantly and it would give you an actually worthwhile stream of Addersting stacks throughout the course of a fight even if it stays the same potency as Dosis. But that's all speculation. Honestly a lot of healer-related potency issues get completely overlooked even when they're blatantly obvious. Toxikon's potency doesn't increase at level 72, so Toxikon is weirdly even worse between 72 and 82, and similarly Afflatus Misery is just a flat 1240 potency, so it's a 40 potency net positive between 74 and 82 for WHM as well. Really easy things to fix that continue to go completely under the radar.

This is the same developers who, at 6.1 , made Aero II and Dia the exact same potency (making Dia a useless "upgrade)



The same Devs who made SCH Art of War the exact same potency as the Ruin filler spell despite Art of War being instant and a full strength AoE. There is literally no reason to cast Ruin from lvl 46 to lvl 54 when you get Broil.

Basic math doesn't seem to be their strong suit, and neither does having QA look at potential changes. Something like that would have easily been caught in pre patch notes or a public test realm but since CBU3 has decided not to release info anymore early we couldn't catch it for them.

[WaxSw]

Good, so am I.

Tell me, in what scientific field can you say a thing is true using one data point and not even defining the specific term you're saying is true?

That is wild series of assumptions you're doing here.

-"You didn't define "shortage", because I never once mentioned shortage, I said that the percentage of healer decreased, that does not need any kind of explanation for anyone with a minimal knowledge of basic math. I suggest you to read again because I think you're a bit confused at which comment you're replying.

You ACTED like this was multiple data points (since it's across servers), but it's at a single point in time, so it doesn't establish a trend that we can compare with historic values. Perhaps worse, you used the wildly divergent data of the 1-59 set to strengthen your case, even though it's extremely obvious why that shouldn't be used and why it doesn't support your argument.

Once again, read my comment again, you're a bit confused. You're assuming I'm using data sets I'm not using, in fact I tend to ignore anything below lv90. I talked from my own experience on top of that, not a scientific approach but I'm not planning on publishing a paper about "the scarcity of healers and how the pure healing in an obsolete model".

If you want some data I used to get to my conclussions is how in the 53 TOP PF parties I joined in the last week of april-first of may in 36/53 the last slot to be filled was the healer (pure healer to be precise), or how the amount of recruitment posts for statics searching for a healer is closer to the 40-50% (depending on the day) compared to the expected 25%

As I said, what if the Healer percentage now is greater than it was in ShB or SB? While you might still say that's a shortage (a term you didn't define), it would imply the problem isn't new and may be resolving itself.

I did not once use shortage, so one more time, make sure you're really reading what I'm saying. "What if the healer percentage was greater?" The fact that the "green river" meme (a JP meme that showed how all the PFs were lacking healers) was created recently and even reached Yoshi-P seems to already show that is not the case at least at max level, otherwise it would have happened previously. Its not numerical data of course but its an appreciation done by several people that already may guide us to discard unlikely scenarios.


1) "If your argument is sound, we should have seen a decline in Healers then" My argument is not that, my argument is that easiness to use is not an independent parameter that we can use to measure the growth of job alone. That said easiness is not a constant E but more of a function F(x,y,t) depending on each role and as such it can't be used to explain the growth of a role alone without previous defining the x,y,t parameters of the role, which is the thing I say that is wrong. I of course did not define it because a proper analysis of those factors can't be done without data that is not public.

I didn't attribute the increase of tanks as result of Healer changes, only the decrease of the healer population. It may not be an only factor but denying that there were a non insignificant subset of players that left the role due to that reason would be straight up lying when we have multiple sources (yes anecdotical data, but we can't truly work with something else unless we go back to the past and do polls) of people leaving the role from that same reason, especially among the AST and SCH community whose changes were mostly disliked.

I would like to see the data you're using tough, I feel there are some key factors ignored

2) The thing is... DPS didn't really decrease in number through the expansion so the migration effect was either non significant or compensated or a mix of both. I would like to see the data you're using tough to get to those conclussions because I fear there are a few factors you are ignoring (weapon ilv for example, important to know the real players of a job)

3) Sure, go ahead and show the data please.

4)"It suggests that the easiness definitely did not HURT." And thats not what I said, go to 1 and read again. I'm not saying that easiness hurt and I never said it once so don't start twisting arguments.

5) Did I say the problem was ONLY the healers? They are a MAJOR part of it but not the only issue

[IDontPetLalas]

Chanter would be like a melee bard with backup heals. Mid tier damage at melee range but constant modest buffs on your party. The backup heals were strong if you took those skills but not good enough to heal top content alone. Not great if they went into more dps. They had to choose.

Think Bard in EQ2 if you ever played that. But with more heals and less impressive buffs. Chanter was the only support class at launch and I think was their version of bard at the time.

Cleric would be White Mage. It was the only pure healer. They did bad damage in heal specs and gear but could do amazing damage in dps spec and gear. They had to drop big heals for big damage.

Clerics were versatile and often viewed as OP. They were one of the few classes that could solo harder content that other classes could not so it attracted a lot of that type of player. Plus they were always needed and in demand. Some groups would even take two clerics.

Some people played song weaver like a Red Mage (I guess?) Or you could say XIv Bard with better heals and cc. They could also choose to spec for more damage or more support. They had a good amount of healing and defensive buffs if they choose that path. They also could do strong burst damage if they chose those skills.

What makes Aion interesting is most classes had two specs so the same class felt a but different as you didn’t have your full kit at all times. You had to pick between a certain number of interchangeable skills which changed a lot of what the class could do.

That's an excellent summary, I would only add that in some classes, including cleric, a hybrid spec was also viable depending upon the content. Also in that game , their was no jobstone, so if we stick to cleric for the moment, there were a lot of options for spec and gear if a cleric wanted to go DPS spec - that could be used for group or solo PVE/PvP content typically in a cloth set with a specific type of staff , but a cleric could also use a mace and shield with chain for healing in a heal spec in PvE and PvP, or could use a hybrid spec with cloth or chain for healing in PvE in some group content AND for some solo content DPS.

There's other options as said before. clerics were one of classes in Aon that had the most gear sets if someone really was serious about PvE and PvP.