TOP cleared with no healers

[Renathras]

That doesn't mean Clerics and Chanters were a "majority" as Rehayem claimed. They never were. As a frequent player I actually regularly tracked the numbers on ALL classes, as I wanted to see who was top level. Certain expansions levelling was really slow so you got a sense of how many were levelling quickly and who they were. While Clerics were common classes, and Chanters were improved from "no one wants to play this" to middle of the road, the two simply never had more players than all the DPS classes combined. They just didn't. Rehayem wants us to believe that in most other MMOs, Healers are more popular than DPS. That's laughable and makes me wonder what MMOs he played that this is the case. It wasn't even the case in Aion, which had more healers than most games.

Par for the course?

That's not to say that healing here is perfect. I was MT healer in the #1 world-prog raid guild in EQ2. My healing at times single-handedly saved raids, sometimes being the only person alive out of 24 people due to failed mechanics and recovering for a win. My skill expression mattered. I don't feel like it matters here for 95% of my time healing, and for most content a healer is very replacable with a lot of other players with little to no notice.

Agreed.

People aren't even saying that Healing in FFXIV is perfect. People are contesting the issue is Healer design/kits alone or exclusively, pointing out that encounter design and Tank/DPS kits are at least partly to blame, and probably more.

And the idea that any game in MMO history had more Healers than DPSers is insanely laughable. Even if you counted ALL Support (as a fourth role) as "Healer" somehow, it's dubious if that would even hold then.

[ZephyrMenodora]

Par for the course?



Agreed.

People aren't even saying that Healing in FFXIV is perfect. People are contesting the issue is Healer design/kits alone or exclusively, pointing out that encounter design and Tank/DPS kits are at least partly to blame, and probably more.

And the idea that any game in MMO history had more Healers than DPSers is insanely laughable. Even if you counted ALL Support (as a fourth role) as "Healer" somehow, it's dubious if that would even hold then.

Only thing I'd add just for understanding is that Chanter was mostly a hybrid class and a cross between a melee DPS, passive buff bot, and healer. They originally were mostly brought for their passive group buffs, some dps/stun, and backup healing. They were in the Priest class and could spec for more healing, but most people would not choose them to solo-heal anything difficult.

[CelestiCer]

I'm just baffled that this is possible... The performance was amazing to see and both sad at the same time as Healers are " obsolete " in the hardest content... Not every group of players can do this either... it's just that it never should have been possible in the first place. It highlights flaws in what Square has designed.

[WaxSw]

In science, what you're doing is known as "violation of ceteris paribus". "ceteris paribus" means "all other things held constant" (or close to). If you want to compare two things directly, you try to do this. The problem is, if other things WEREN'T held constant, you have to factor in those effects. From SB to ShB, Tanks were made far easier to play, especially WAR. Further, a new and very cool, very hyped Tank Job was added, and one that has a strong appeal to Melee DPS players. This saw an explosion in Tank players, with many former DPS players shifting their main to Tank.

I'm gonna stop you here because as someone who works in a scientific field I can tell you all your arguments do not apply to that and let me explain you why. When we work in an experiment we usually have a really hard time isolating variables, what we tend to do is analyze their impact and see if their contribution can be discarded (this is why in a lot of theories Taylor's expansion does not go past the 3rd term). The arguments that you propose fall as either negligible or incomplete because:

-Easiness to use was increased for tanks, but also for healers and by a lot. If easiness to use alone was an independent parameter that was ignored it should have affected both populations equally but while tanks saw an increase healers didn't. This means that there is a factor underlying that is unique to the roles that changes the contribution of the easy factor, its not "easiness to use" its "easiness to use(x)", or, as I said, "There is something wrong (with healers)".

-The whole rambling about dps migrating to tanks and GNB's introduction shoudn't have any impact in the healer population as the players atracted to a melee gameplay were never going to play healers and dps moving to tank jobs shoudn't have any effect on the healer population. (Given Z constant and Z=A+B+C, if A'=A+N and B'=B-N Z=A'+B'+C' => C=C')

-SGE having a lesser impact than GNB for tanks is a valid argument, but still doesn't explain why this decrease started to be appreciated in Shb and still woudn't explain the decrease in percentage of population as new jobs tend to be neutral/positive for the population

-SCH lobotomized and WHM blooming while the % decreases only serves to further prove that easiness to use alone is not a valid argument.

None of the arguments you propose show that something key has been ignored, at best they show that there is something wrong with healers but that was already acknowledged

[IDontPetLalas]

I agree the game is dead and for good reason. Aion had so many unforgivable practices to me, I'm glad it's about dead. They deserve it. *snip*

That doesn't mean Clerics and Chanters were a "majority" as Rehayem claimed. They never were. As a frequent player I actually regularly tracked the numbers on ALL classes, as I wanted to see who was top level. Certain expansions levelling was really slow so you got a sense of how many were levelling quickly and who they were. While Clerics were common classes, and Chanters were improved from "no one wants to play this" to middle of the road, the two simply never had more players than all the DPS classes combined. They just didn't. Rehayem wants us to believe that in most other MMOs, Healers are more popular than DPS. That's laughable and makes me wonder what MMOs he played that this is the case. It wasn't even the case in Aion, which had more healers than most games.

That's not to say that healing here is perfect. I was MT healer in the #1 world-prog raid guild in EQ2. My healing at times single-handedly saved raids, sometimes being the only person alive out of 24 people due to failed mechanics and recovering for a win. My skill expression mattered. I don't feel like it matters here for 95% of my time healing, and for most content a healer is very replacable with a lot of other players with little to no notice.

If we ever want to get into your issues with Aion p2W, just going into the the difference between gearing in the subscription years and the F2P years would likely be one complete discussion in and of itself, as well of a number of the issues that you're discussing, such as the events and the candy, they aren't relevant to the class design. I could easily find a number of poor decisions that were made in that game. It had some excellent years, i don't know who the "they" is that you're referring to- if it's NCSoft I understand how you might feel.

I would agree that if we added up the number of clerics and chanters they would not outnumber the total of all the number of DPS classes however they were quite popular , it's hard to say now but maybe clerics and chanter = 50% of the DPS population- that's a very rough estimate and it would depend upon the expansion,

[ZephyrMenodora]

If we ever want to get into your issues with Aion p2W, just going into the the difference between gearing in the subscription years and the F2P years would likely be one complete discussion in and of itself, as well of a number of the issues that you're discussing, such as the events and the candy, they aren't relevant to the class design. I could easily find a number of poor decisions that were made in that game. It had some excellent years, i don't know who the "they" is that you're referring to- if it's NCSoft I understand how you might feel.

I would agree that if we added up the number of clerics and chanters they would not outnumber the total of all the number of DPS classes however they were quite popular , it's hard to say now but maybe clerics and chanter = 50% of the DPS population- that's a very rough estimate and it would depend upon the expansion,

Sorry, by "they" I did mean NCSoft. I feel bad for all the players that loved and spent time in Aion. It was a very amazing and special experience over time that they butchered with greed and some truly bizarre decision making. My first 4/5 years of Aion or so I'll always cherish.

[Renathras]

I'm gonna stop you here because as someone who works in a scientific field

Good, so am I.

Tell me, in what scientific field can you say a thing is true using one data point and not even defining the specific term you're saying is true?

That's right, none of them.

You didn't define "shortage", you simply said there was one. When asked for data, you didn't define the term, and you presented a single data point. You ACTED like this was multiple data points (since it's across servers), but it's at a single point in time, so it doesn't establish a trend that we can compare with historic values. Perhaps worse, you used the wildly divergent data of the 1-59 set to strengthen your case, even though it's extremely obvious why that shouldn't be used and why it doesn't support your argument.

As I said, what if the Healer percentage now is greater than it was in ShB or SB? While you might still say that's a shortage (a term you didn't define), it would imply the problem isn't new and may be resolving itself.

As for your counters:

1) Easiness to use isn't the same for all things - recall that Healers were also made easier to use in SB with the removal of Cleric and having their second single target DoTs all removed. If your argument is sound, we should have seen a decline in Healers then (we did, btw, from the data I found, but you didn't look up or present any such data to support this argument, and it has alternative inputs, like RDM appealing to Support players, as I mentioned before). I also didn't say "easiness to use alone" was what caused everything. I was pointing out you can't see the increase in Tanks and decrease in Healers as a result of Healer changes. Especially since one Healer, WHM, didn't change much and was extremely popular. While SCH's reduced DPS kit and AST's simplified buffing kit are part of that - which I did not say they were not - that isn't the complete picture you want it to be.

2) No, it doesn't have an impact on the Healer population directly. Which is why I didn't argue that it did. Your argument was "...they were easier to find than tanks so now them being so low in % of population should show there is something wrong." There are two pieces to this argument. The FIRST is Tanks became easier to find than Healers. Me showing WHY Tank numbers increased and that it had nothing to do with Healers diffuses that first part of the argument. This leaves the second part, that Healers are now "so low in % of population", something you didn't prove, since to prove this you'd need to show they were a lower percent AFTER THE CHANGE than BEFORE THE CHANGE, something you showing a single datapoint from 2023 does not do. And, again, I've used the wayback machine and gotten those numbers before for the Healer forum a few months ago. SB was, in fact, the time in the game's life with the least Healer players, not ShB. What changed was ShB saw A LOT OF NEW PLAYERS, and they picked up Tanks and DPS Jobs, but even so, the percentage of Healers increased. I have not compared the ShB to EW numbers, but showing that there were more Healer players in ShB than in SB and that SB was the lowest percentage of Healer players in the game's history as of last year already defeats your argument that the ShB changes were responsible for a drop in Healers. Also, calling an argument a "whole rambling thing" isn't an argument, it's an attempt to ridicule and be dismissive of something that actually hurts your argument.

3) We agree on SGE, so...all I'll say here is, again, the decrease was in SB, not ShB. ShB saw an increase in Healers over SB. I might have to see if I can find that thread in the Healer forum again...

4) Yes, it shows that your argument is not valid, I agree. I don't think that's what you intended to say... It suggests that the easiness definitely did not HURT. I would argue what it shows is that Healer players that wanted something more complex left the role, not that the role itself was harmed as there were ample people playing it at the time.

5) They show that the problem isn't limited to Healers. Which is my entire argument.

EDIT:

...it's hard to say now but maybe clerics and chanter = 50% of the DPS population- that's a very rough estimate and it would depend upon the expansion,

Right, but this includes the DPS build as well as the healer ones, does it not? Which would include them as DPS.

It'd be like classifying Paladins in WoW as "Healers" even though two of their specs are a DPS and a Tank. Given, I have no idea how you could parse that out of Aion, but you said yourself that people brought Chanters as Healers and Clerics as DPSers.

[ForteNightshade]

Whut? o.O

The entire reason for making GNB play like a Melee AND removing Threat/Damage stances from Tanks was because there was a massive Tank shortage in SB. I could be wrong, but I think Yoshi P said something akin to "Give Tanks a try" back around 5.0's launch. So yes, he has done so within the last decade...

... no it wasn't?

There is literally nothing said about Gunbreaker being made to play like a melee to incentivize playing tanks. It's a player made theory Gunbreaker started as a DPS concept that eventually became a tank due to player demand for a non-DPS. That's just it though, a theory.

As for the enmity changes, that came due to pushback towards aggro becoming more of a party responsibility, and their almighty pursuit of accessibility. A good tank simply never touched tank stance, which caused a massive discrepancy in damage between those who kept their stance off and those who didn't. Not to mention that constantly fighting brought on by the former. DPS wouldn't use Diversion and tanks refused to switch into tank stance, letting them die. None of it had anything to do with a tank shortage. That is entirely you making stuff up.

Yoshida also never made any such statement to my recollection, though you're certainly welcome to provide evidence to the contrary. All in all, you need some citations here because "I think these changes were made to incentivize tanking" isn't a rebuttal to "Here's a direct quote from the lead Director actually asking people to try healers."

[IDontPetLalas]

Oh, you have chosen...poorly.
You made a comparison you then said yourself was invalid. I said closest to as far as I can tell. YES, I didn't play Aion because it's a dead game and I liked other games better. That's why I'm not the one comparing Aion to FFXIV.
What this post is really saying:
"I was going to reply, but realized I had no counter to the arguments made, so I'm not going to but am going to present my non-argument as if I won."
Futurama - Will of the warrior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMdYZG_gdwI
"No girl has the will of the warrior. You have the will of the housewife. Or, at best, the school mom."
"That's it! I'll take you on right now!"
"Very well. But, you see, I have the will of the warrior. Therefore the battle is already over. The winner? Me! Rematch? YOU LOSE AGAIN! HAD ENOUGH?! I THOUGHT SO!"
When you frame your argument as "I don't have to have an argument", then that's this stupidity.
Yay! You actually contested...a small part of...the point: That the Chanter could be considered a Healer, which is 100% in line with my statement that it sounds like the kind of FFXIV AST in HW.
Congratulations for agreeing with me even while you were mocking me.
The phrase you're looking for would be "You would be correct, more or less", not "You would be incorrect".
So...KINDA like...a...RDM...
Thanks for telling me I'm right again without saying I'm right again.

It's funny how you insist I'm talking out my butt...but then say the things I said are correct, just while trying not to word it that way. XD


So are people like that not having arguments.

Point is, someone made a stupid comparison, then when called on it, didn't even bother trying to defend it.


Can you provide any evidence that people who play SUPPORT roles in 4-role games all play HEALERS in 3-role Trinity games?

/popcorn

I straight up said what information is needed. Asking for a trend instead of a single data point isn't "FIVE DIFFERENT ACADEMIC JOURNALS". Moreover, when I am making arguments, I do cite data such as player numbers AND historic trends. So I'm asking him to do nothing that I don't do myself when I provide data to support positions.

"You lose again!"

So , to clarify:

No, I wasn't "mocking you" however as you said, you hadn't played Aion, so whatever you wrote was pure conjecture or , in your own words "talking out of your butt".

No, chanter did not play at all like FFXIV AST. About all that they had in common was the ability apply buffs and the ability to heal, however the player experience was completely different

No, a SW did not play at all like a RDM. Or heal like one.

in summary, you sound as authoritative here talking about Aion as I would be talking about WOW. Considering I only played WOW for about a week, I'll let you imagine just how profound my understanding of WOW is in comparison to those people who have played it for years.

[Renathras]

... no it wasn't?

/sigh

Why was there a Tank shortage in SB?

...and NOT in ShB?

EDIT:

in summary, you sound as authoritative here talking about Aion as I would be talking about WOW. Considering I only played WOW for about a week, I'll let you imagine just how profound my understanding of WOW is in comparison to those people who have played it for years.

I wasn't talking "authoritative", good god.

I was saying that looking at the Aion classes, one seemed to be a focused Healer, two seemed to have some Healing but were more Support roles, and one seemed to be...not a Healer at all. Moreover, the person saying the Healer "and support" (their own term) roles were the majority never provided data to support that conclusion anyway, nor which classes they were calling "Healers" for the purpose of that argument.

You invented the idea that I was definitively saying what they were, despite my post saying things like "seems like", and instead of saying "Well, here's how they played and what they actually did", you chose to be disparaging instead. Moreover, it sounds like reading your response, that my initial conclusions were fairly accurate.

"did not play at all like" - okay, so what FFXIV Job DID Chanter play like? If the answer is "well, none of them", then the comparison in the first place is meaningless and unhelpful.

Which FFXIV Job DID Chanter play like?

If the answer is none of them, what is the CLOSEST?

Which FFXIV Job does Songweaver play like?

If the answer is none of them, what is the CLOSEST?

Did Cleric even play like any FFXIV Job? If so, which? If not, which is CLOSEST?