TOP cleared with no healers

[Stormpeaks]

Guys, while it does show a big glaring weakness in fundamental mmo role triangle, let me assure you that this fight is in fact hard enough with healers.

Player skill is a huge factor, the players who managed to get this to work are exceptionally talented.

"i didnt read the thread but everything is fine guys move along"

[Ivtrix]

"i didnt read the thread but everything is fine guys move along"

nah, there are clear issues between encounter and balance design, tank sustain is pretty high right now and there is some healer powercreep in dps kits like mantra and curing waltz that can be optimized. its easy to identify the weakpoints but i main dps i dont really have any critical insights on to what needs to be changed

its good to collect feedback while we wont see significant changes until 7.0, it just feels like we have been having this conversation all expansion.

[Deceptus]

TOP has - 0 Healer clear, people found it either too hard or boring, people using zoom hacks
Prior one did - 1 Healer clear
Prior to that did - in the sense of the "dropped/missing" Ultimate from ShB

Stormblood Ultimate was completed with 8 tanks.

O4 Savage was completed on content with no healers

EX's are routinely done without healers in the same patch they're introduced

Tanks can solo kill 8 person raid boss by themselves

Yoshi says due to the healer shortage, "Please give healer a try" (paraphrasing)

Yoshi says if you want a challenge, as a healer, to go try ultimate while making it able to be cleared without the entire healing role.

And the guy wonders why there's an insane healer shortage.

[Neoyoshi]

Btw, whats this?

[Aword3213]

Btw, whats this?

a log informing streamer who's watching your stream.

Bilibili is the chinese version of Youtube.

[Somnolence]

Encounter design is the problem, and must be addressed first, otherwise nothing else mattes. "give healers more dps buttons"; okay, that makes players that enjoy DPSing happy (but we already have 11 Jobs exclusively for that...), while making those who play Healers because they don't enjoy dps very unhappy (which is a problem), but still ends up with 1/0 Healer clears, doesn't it? How does that fix the problem?

It doesn't.

The whole point of doing content without healers is because if there is nothing to heal then what healer role brings to the group is subpar as their dmg is generally lower than tank/dps - they are effectively a detriment. 1 WAR 3 DPS expert roulette is faster.

Bringing healer DPS to tank level with optimal group play would ensure that if there is not much to heal group speed is better and healer does not fall asleep as they have actual damage rotation.

[Neoyoshi]

a log informing streamer who's watching your stream.

Bilibili is the chinese version of Youtube.

Ahhh, oki doki thank you.

EDIT; as my take on this and my thoughts as a much older mmorpg gamer. This sort of thing is really nothing new- as much of a spectacle as it may seem to some viewers, i wouldn't allow it to make you feel like something is fundamentally broken.

gamers for generations have found ways to tackle hard situations in video games in either gamer-breaking or unconventional ways, all you have to do is look at older mmorpg's and what their communities have accomplished using non-standard means.

I'm not going to site any examples because google doesn't like keeping old information for very long on the surface-web, and there's too many instances of great gameplay achievements out there.

Again, viewing this through a lens in which the game is broken is a lazy way to look at this, and it's also possible that perhaps a lot of us aren't as good at gaming as we'd like to think we are. Let your egos go for a minute.

[ForteNightshade]

Efficiency is an argument, but not this one.

This argument is "what roles are not needed for content" (usually "Healers aren't even needed for 4 mans, much less harder content!"), but we've had all Tank clears of Pandaemonium raids, all Tank clears of Ultimates (not on patch, but still synced), no Healer, no DPS, and no Tank clears of 4 man Experts, and both no Healer AND no Tank clears of Extremes.

The no Healer clear of TOP here was most definitely NOT efficient. <_<

It still remains applicable though.

You posited several times now why no one ever argues Tanks or DPS aren't needed. Efficiency is the answer. People pulling off no tank runs are doing it for challenge sake or just to see if it's possible but tanks still provide value whereas that same value gets increasingly diminished for healers. Like I said with Rubicante, while it can be done without a tank you're not going to beyond a clear or two for the giggles because it's both annoying to deal with fluctuating aggro and a much slower killtime due to the Scholar having to GCD heal. Meanwhile, a Warrior won't lose any damage and can heal just fine. Paladin makes it even easier as they can Cover the DPS targeted for the buster and invuln their own.

I never said it was. That falls under the "can we do it?" category. What I said was: "Translating this to TOP. No one is going to drop Healers in Ultimate but it does show their overall contribution to the fight are substantially less than everyone else by virtue of the encounter having minimal healing requirements and their kits being overbloated with ways to heal what's actually there."

To further elaborate on this, DPS have the highest engagement due to the damage check, party responsibility is high because of mitigation checks and there are a few tank specific mechanics otherwise they can fall back on their DPS rotation to keep them engaged. What do healers have though? Their abundance of healing tools clearly aren't necessary, mitigation isn't unique to any one role and they have nothing to fall back on beyond a one button "rotation." Nerfing every other aspect won't magically make the role engaging. Maybe Holos and Macro won't be a huge overheal or Lilybell will tick more than twice. Even if you do have to trade in a few Glare casts for Medica II, you'll inevitably be back to spamming Glare. Hence why healers themselves also need to be addressed. They're simply too strong, with far too many answers for practically every situation.

Now the reason you constantly see people bring up wanting to give Healers a damage suite similar to Tanks is because, frankly, a lot of us have long given up on the dev team doing anything to make healing relevant again. They seem far too afraid of making it too difficult for inexperienced players. So our only other recourse is make the Glare spam more interesting.

[Rehayem]

Stormblood Ultimate was completed with 8 tanks.

O4 Savage was completed on content with no healers

EX's are routinely done without healers in the same patch they're introduced

Tanks can solo kill 8 person raid boss by themselves

Yoshi says due to the healer shortage, "Please give healer a try" (paraphrasing)

Yoshi says if you want a challenge, as a healer, to go try ultimate while making it able to be cleared without the entire healing role.

And the guy wonders why there's an insane healer shortage.

Yoshi-P doesn't understand why people don't want to play healers is because he doesn't play one, guy only plays BLM and it's the only job that probably has not seen any drastic changes. It's called bias lol.

I dare him to play healer for few months and see if he finds spamming 1 button 99% of the time "fun".

[Renathras]

grey healer who never cleared any tier arguing with entropy healer

you love to see it

I've actually cleared content, unlike you. If you want to be part of this discussion, post on your main. Otherwise, we all know you've never stepped foot into a raid.

And since you like logical fallacies so much: Appeal to authority fallacy on your part.

AND FURTHER: Several of my points are things she either agrees with or has stated herself should be changed in the past or even in these threads the last few days. Meaning at least some of my arguments are her arguments.
(A total waste of time; sides, I'm a green Healer, tyvm, Blue in most content, and this is while not having a Static, not doing parse runs, and not running any third party software to curate my "best" runs; do you even have a single healer clear of anything? Not to mention your clear history is not very impressive. Those who live in glass houses...)

Bah, made a concise response and then managed to nuke it.

Yeah, done that before. It sucks so much.

Anyway, the big change has to be the encounter design. If it doesn't change, nothing else will be relevant. Doing any of the Healer changes won't matter if the encounters don't change. If we change the Healer kits like I suggested above, you'd still be able to 0 Healer TOP clear. On the other hand, if we made the encounter design changes, you could probably solo heal TOP, but you'd still actively need a Healer, so this would be an improvement on the current state. Meaning if we only get one, OR we do one before the other, changing encounter design is the thing that has to happen "first and foremost", hence my use of those words.

The ideal is to change it all as outlined..

"I'm pretty confident that it's not just DPS buttons we are talking about" - this depends on the person. MOST of the Healer forum posters, that is, in fact, their position. I even thought it was your for a long time (perhaps you've changed yours after this TOP clear or something) since every time I suggested more healing requirements/encounter design changes, everyone in there, I believe including you, insisted we couldn't do that because casual healers in casual content wouldn't be able to deal with the change. I even have described my solution (though seldom as concise, I will admit) before and been told "more DPS buttons won't be a problem since people not engaging with them won't alter casual content, casuals just won't be able to clear content they shouldn't be anyway; more healing would mean casuals couldn't clear casual content, so we can't do that".

I'm pretty sure that means "just DPS buttons" has been the solution proposed.

Maybe this TOP clear is changing people's minds on that? You'd have to ask them in there, though, as I'm trying to avoid posting in there for the time being.

Guys, while it does show a big glaring weakness in fundamental mmo role triangle, let me assure you that this fight is in fact hard enough with healers.

Player skill is a huge factor, the players who managed to get this to work are exceptionally talented.

It is weird how people take "1 in a million people can do this" and go "anyone can do this, so we can make sweeping generalizations from this to support positions we've already held anyway that it doesn't actually support."

...

3 points:

1) Which of those proves that DPSers aren't needed?

2) Can you prove - objective proof - that there is a "healer shortage" right now?

3) Doesn't this more prove that Tanks are OP?

The whole point of doing content without healers is because if there is nothing to heal then what healer role brings to the group is subpar as their dmg is generally lower than tank/dps - they are effectively a detriment. 1 WAR 3 DPS expert roulette is faster.

Bringing healer DPS to tank level with optimal group play would ensure that if there is not much to heal group speed is better and healer does not fall asleep as they have actual damage rotation.

Yeah, but you can do that without any additional buttons. Boost their spamnuke power by ~25% and Healers would be doing the same ballpark of damage as Tanks right now.

...you'd still have this solo TOP clear because Healers can't cheese you through Tank mechanics (in a hypothetical 3 Healer, 5 DPS comp) like 3 Tanks can cheese you through Healer LB3 requirements with two Paladins for Cover.

Again, Healers having more DPS buttons doesn't prevent solo Healer runs of anything.

Again, viewing this through a lens in which the game is broken is a lazy way to look at this, and it's also possible that perhaps a lot of us aren't as good at gaming as we'd like to think we are. Let your egos go for a minute.

Yeah, there have been some wacky things players have done in gaming through the years. In the past, it was praised, not condemned.

...

My main issue here is when people misrepresent their arguments.

IF people were saying "No roles are actually needed in the game", I'd be like "Yeah, I can see that. That sounds like an everyone/all role/encounter design problem."

IF people were saying "You don't need Healers to be efficient in casual content" (again, the no Healer clears of TOP and Dragonsong were NOT efficient), I'd be like "Yeah, and? Most players don't care about that since most players use DF or will use a standard comp in PF since that's what harder content is designed for and people who aren't part of a high skill coordinated group need the safety net Healers provide."

Neither of those are actually problems.

When you say the first but mean the second, that's misrepresenting/overstating your case. 1T3D Expert roulettes are faster, sure; what percentage of the playerbase does that? Not very many. People without Statics probably don't do it, and the vast majority of the playerbase doing a quick daily roulette in Expert doesn't care to sit in PF or /shout chat making a party "to save time". It's only about 2 mins per run, or 10 mins per week (5 runs if you cap tomes exclusively on Expert roulette 90 per day = 450). The only people that matters to are people chain running Experts to cap in a single day (likely people with Statics who aren't having to spend time making the groups), in which case you only get 40 tomes per run (after the first) and you're actually saving some time (about an hour or less, but that's significant to raiders trying to cap day 1 of a week before raids).

If it's the second, then it's not a problem for the game since it's just an alternative for people with the resources/friend group to be slightly more efficient at doing a thing. If it's the former, that's a more gamewide and design problem. But if your saying the former but arguing the latter, then you're misrepresenting/overstating your position..

As to the last point: Here's the thing, if Healers ARE as redundant as people say, then people who want a damage suit Healer could just be playing RDM or SMN right now and 0 Healer clearing all content. Meaning there's already that "solution" (I'm not saying it's a good one, I'm just saying it's there). Yet people aren't doing this. Because most people recognize that they do, in fact, need Healers in their parties.

Moreover, you underestimate both (a) "make the Glare spam more interesting" will make it "too difficult for inexperienced players" just the same, and (b) that many people play Healers explicitly BECAUSE they don't like damage rotations/DPS Jobs.

.


And the irony of all this is: I'm even in favor of some of the Healers (namely SCH and SGE) getting more extensive damage suites, and have been for a long time.

I dare him to play healer for few months and see if he finds spamming 1 button 99% of the time "fun".

I kind of do wonder about this. His main is BLM, and supposedly people have run into his main on the JP Datacenter in content. I wonder if he ever plays or has leveled any other Jobs...?