TOP cleared with no healers

[Sebazy]

<snip>

Bah, made a concise response and then managed to nuke it.

The TLDR: Then I don't get why you comment elsewhere that it's a content thing and content needs to change first and foremost? Both of these things need to change in tandem. I've mathed up elsewhere that a 50k raid wide every 18 seconds isn't enough to put our kits under any strain at this point. When many of us state that we think healers need to change, I'm pretty confident that it's not just DPS buttons we are talking about. Dismissing it as just that is missing the point.

grey healer who never cleared any tier arguing with entropy healer

you love to see it

Honestly, I'm no Elia, Ayessa or Fretty etc. I'm the comfy option that heals the retirement home team

[Ivtrix]

Guys, while it does show a big glaring weakness in fundamental mmo role triangle, let me assure you that this fight is in fact hard enough with healers.

Player skill is a huge factor, the players who managed to get this to work are exceptionally talented.

[Stormpeaks]

Guys, while it does show a big glaring weakness in fundamental mmo role triangle, let me assure you that this fight is in fact hard enough with healers.

Player skill is a huge factor, the players who managed to get this to work are exceptionally talented.

"i didnt read the thread but everything is fine guys move along"

[Ivtrix]

"i didnt read the thread but everything is fine guys move along"

nah, there are clear issues between encounter and balance design, tank sustain is pretty high right now and there is some healer powercreep in dps kits like mantra and curing waltz that can be optimized. its easy to identify the weakpoints but i main dps i dont really have any critical insights on to what needs to be changed

its good to collect feedback while we wont see significant changes until 7.0, it just feels like we have been having this conversation all expansion.

[GaiusDrakon]

Guys, while it does show a big glaring weakness in fundamental mmo role triangle, let me assure you that this fight is in fact hard enough with healers.

Player skill is a huge factor, the players who managed to get this to work are exceptionally talented.

Christ

Literally no one is saying that healers are completely useless

People are saying healers are in a bad spot and this clear was a symptom of a far larger problem

[fulminating]

It's just being used as a good springboard for people to finally talk and hopefully get addressed the current deep issues with the healer role. I don't think more than one person's said TOP is too easy.
Edit: oops beaten to it

[Deceptus]

TOP has - 0 Healer clear, people found it either too hard or boring, people using zoom hacks
Prior one did - 1 Healer clear
Prior to that did - in the sense of the "dropped/missing" Ultimate from ShB

Stormblood Ultimate was completed with 8 tanks.

O4 Savage was completed on content with no healers

EX's are routinely done without healers in the same patch they're introduced

Tanks can solo kill 8 person raid boss by themselves

Yoshi says due to the healer shortage, "Please give healer a try" (paraphrasing)

Yoshi says if you want a challenge, as a healer, to go try ultimate while making it able to be cleared without the entire healing role.

And the guy wonders why there's an insane healer shortage.

[Rehayem]

Stormblood Ultimate was completed with 8 tanks.

O4 Savage was completed on content with no healers

EX's are routinely done without healers in the same patch they're introduced

Tanks can solo kill 8 person raid boss by themselves

Yoshi says due to the healer shortage, "Please give healer a try" (paraphrasing)

Yoshi says if you want a challenge, as a healer, to go try ultimate while making it able to be cleared without the entire healing role.

And the guy wonders why there's an insane healer shortage.

Yoshi-P doesn't understand why people don't want to play healers is because he doesn't play one, guy only plays BLM and it's the only job that probably has not seen any drastic changes. It's called bias lol.

I dare him to play healer for few months and see if he finds spamming 1 button 99% of the time "fun".

[Renathras]

grey healer who never cleared any tier arguing with entropy healer

you love to see it

I've actually cleared content, unlike you. If you want to be part of this discussion, post on your main. Otherwise, we all know you've never stepped foot into a raid.

And since you like logical fallacies so much: Appeal to authority fallacy on your part.

AND FURTHER: Several of my points are things she either agrees with or has stated herself should be changed in the past or even in these threads the last few days. Meaning at least some of my arguments are her arguments.
(A total waste of time; sides, I'm a green Healer, tyvm, Blue in most content, and this is while not having a Static, not doing parse runs, and not running any third party software to curate my "best" runs; do you even have a single healer clear of anything? Not to mention your clear history is not very impressive. Those who live in glass houses...)

Bah, made a concise response and then managed to nuke it.

Yeah, done that before. It sucks so much.

Anyway, the big change has to be the encounter design. If it doesn't change, nothing else will be relevant. Doing any of the Healer changes won't matter if the encounters don't change. If we change the Healer kits like I suggested above, you'd still be able to 0 Healer TOP clear. On the other hand, if we made the encounter design changes, you could probably solo heal TOP, but you'd still actively need a Healer, so this would be an improvement on the current state. Meaning if we only get one, OR we do one before the other, changing encounter design is the thing that has to happen "first and foremost", hence my use of those words.

The ideal is to change it all as outlined..

"I'm pretty confident that it's not just DPS buttons we are talking about" - this depends on the person. MOST of the Healer forum posters, that is, in fact, their position. I even thought it was your for a long time (perhaps you've changed yours after this TOP clear or something) since every time I suggested more healing requirements/encounter design changes, everyone in there, I believe including you, insisted we couldn't do that because casual healers in casual content wouldn't be able to deal with the change. I even have described my solution (though seldom as concise, I will admit) before and been told "more DPS buttons won't be a problem since people not engaging with them won't alter casual content, casuals just won't be able to clear content they shouldn't be anyway; more healing would mean casuals couldn't clear casual content, so we can't do that".

I'm pretty sure that means "just DPS buttons" has been the solution proposed.

Maybe this TOP clear is changing people's minds on that? You'd have to ask them in there, though, as I'm trying to avoid posting in there for the time being.

Guys, while it does show a big glaring weakness in fundamental mmo role triangle, let me assure you that this fight is in fact hard enough with healers.

Player skill is a huge factor, the players who managed to get this to work are exceptionally talented.

It is weird how people take "1 in a million people can do this" and go "anyone can do this, so we can make sweeping generalizations from this to support positions we've already held anyway that it doesn't actually support."

...

3 points:

1) Which of those proves that DPSers aren't needed?

2) Can you prove - objective proof - that there is a "healer shortage" right now?

3) Doesn't this more prove that Tanks are OP?

The whole point of doing content without healers is because if there is nothing to heal then what healer role brings to the group is subpar as their dmg is generally lower than tank/dps - they are effectively a detriment. 1 WAR 3 DPS expert roulette is faster.

Bringing healer DPS to tank level with optimal group play would ensure that if there is not much to heal group speed is better and healer does not fall asleep as they have actual damage rotation.

Yeah, but you can do that without any additional buttons. Boost their spamnuke power by ~25% and Healers would be doing the same ballpark of damage as Tanks right now.

...you'd still have this solo TOP clear because Healers can't cheese you through Tank mechanics (in a hypothetical 3 Healer, 5 DPS comp) like 3 Tanks can cheese you through Healer LB3 requirements with two Paladins for Cover.

Again, Healers having more DPS buttons doesn't prevent solo Healer runs of anything.

Again, viewing this through a lens in which the game is broken is a lazy way to look at this, and it's also possible that perhaps a lot of us aren't as good at gaming as we'd like to think we are. Let your egos go for a minute.

Yeah, there have been some wacky things players have done in gaming through the years. In the past, it was praised, not condemned.

...

My main issue here is when people misrepresent their arguments.

IF people were saying "No roles are actually needed in the game", I'd be like "Yeah, I can see that. That sounds like an everyone/all role/encounter design problem."

IF people were saying "You don't need Healers to be efficient in casual content" (again, the no Healer clears of TOP and Dragonsong were NOT efficient), I'd be like "Yeah, and? Most players don't care about that since most players use DF or will use a standard comp in PF since that's what harder content is designed for and people who aren't part of a high skill coordinated group need the safety net Healers provide."

Neither of those are actually problems.

When you say the first but mean the second, that's misrepresenting/overstating your case. 1T3D Expert roulettes are faster, sure; what percentage of the playerbase does that? Not very many. People without Statics probably don't do it, and the vast majority of the playerbase doing a quick daily roulette in Expert doesn't care to sit in PF or /shout chat making a party "to save time". It's only about 2 mins per run, or 10 mins per week (5 runs if you cap tomes exclusively on Expert roulette 90 per day = 450). The only people that matters to are people chain running Experts to cap in a single day (likely people with Statics who aren't having to spend time making the groups), in which case you only get 40 tomes per run (after the first) and you're actually saving some time (about an hour or less, but that's significant to raiders trying to cap day 1 of a week before raids).

If it's the second, then it's not a problem for the game since it's just an alternative for people with the resources/friend group to be slightly more efficient at doing a thing. If it's the former, that's a more gamewide and design problem. But if your saying the former but arguing the latter, then you're misrepresenting/overstating your position..

As to the last point: Here's the thing, if Healers ARE as redundant as people say, then people who want a damage suit Healer could just be playing RDM or SMN right now and 0 Healer clearing all content. Meaning there's already that "solution" (I'm not saying it's a good one, I'm just saying it's there). Yet people aren't doing this. Because most people recognize that they do, in fact, need Healers in their parties.

Moreover, you underestimate both (a) "make the Glare spam more interesting" will make it "too difficult for inexperienced players" just the same, and (b) that many people play Healers explicitly BECAUSE they don't like damage rotations/DPS Jobs.

.


And the irony of all this is: I'm even in favor of some of the Healers (namely SCH and SGE) getting more extensive damage suites, and have been for a long time.

I dare him to play healer for few months and see if he finds spamming 1 button 99% of the time "fun".

I kind of do wonder about this. His main is BLM, and supposedly people have run into his main on the JP Datacenter in content. I wonder if he ever plays or has leveled any other Jobs...?

[Sebazy]

"I'm pretty confident that it's not just DPS buttons we are talking about" - this depends on the person. MOST of the Healer forum posters, that is, in fact, their position. I even thought it was your for a long time (perhaps you've changed yours after this TOP clear or something) since every time I suggested more healing requirements/encounter design changes, everyone in there, I believe including you, insisted we couldn't do that because casual healers in casual content wouldn't be able to deal with the change.

What I selfishly want and what I actually think is a reasonable expectation are two separate things.

In my own eyes, ARR WHM was the absolute peak of healing in this game. Incoming damage was spiky and erratic, our toolkit was slow, inefficient but powerful. Healing was methodical and measured. Good healers could genuinely make a noticeable difference, covering for mistakes and enabling the rest of the group to push the line just that bit harder. If I had my way AoE healing would be cost prohibitive for all but the most essential requirements further forcing us to think about our healing in terms of time and efficiency rather than following the spreadsheet.

But I appreciate that this is every bit as divisive a goal as outright turning healers into fully blown DPS with a few healing buttons.

I get that you don't agree with it, but adding a bit more DPS/support/buff complexity and engagement to the healers is actually the compromise. Because right now the kits are designed to overpower the sort of content I dream of but have never gotten in years. Pruning a bit of the needless fluff and turning it into something interesting to break up the glare spam more actively will get a bit of balance back to our overly heal heavy kits to try and stop us from dogpiling all of our GCDs into the tiniest portion of our abilities.

It doesn't have to be dots for everyone, it doesn't have to be nukes for everyone, it doesn't have to be procs for everyone. It just needs to be something that we can press with decent frequency that brings genuine value to the group irrespective where our parties HP bars are at. That's it.