Please finally fix Tank, DPS and Healer roles SE

[Boblawblah]

It doesnt have to be complicated though. We can keep the healing kits as they are. Just nerf tank mitigation to make healers have something more substantial to do than just spamming one button. We have so much healing abilities yet theres not as used in all forms of content

That I can agree on. Tanks shouldn't be able to survive for entire fights without a healer present. That breaks the trinity completely, and without enrage timers, DPS become pointless as well. I think the problem is the threads I see keep saying a variety of things from fixing healers, making them do more dps, tanks are too strong, etc, when I agree, a simple change would be to reduce the tank self-healing by a good amount and see how that looks.

I don't think it is an issue of making them more complicated, and more about increasing the threat level in normal duties that can be intimidating for casual healers. If for example a lot of tank mitigation and self heals are taken away that responsibility is removed from the tank, and passed onto the healer. The way I see things though is that responsibility should be as close to equal as possible for all the roles in a party. The way things are now, healers have the least amount of responsibility in normal level duties. If you take away a tank's ability to sustain themselves, or a good portion of it anyway, this will even things out a lot more. This is how I feel it should be. Tanks already have a large amount of responsibility within duties, it is absolutely ridiculous that they are also capable of healing themselves and party members to boot.

I agree for the most part, but I disagree that healers are the least important role for normal content. In 90% of normal content, DPS simply aren't necessary at all, and no healing means you're going to wipe constantly.

[Gemina]

That I can agree on. Tanks shouldn't be able to survive for entire fights without a healer present. That breaks the trinity completely, and without enrage timers, DPS become pointless as well. I think the problem is the threads I see keep saying a variety of things from fixing healers, making them do more dps, tanks are too strong, etc, when I agree, a simple change would be to reduce the tank self-healing by a good amount and see how that looks.



I agree for the most part, but I disagree that healers are the least important role for normal content. In 90% of normal content, DPS simply aren't necessary at all, and no healing means you're going to wipe constantly.

DPS responsibility is pretty static in all content regardless of difficulty: Kill the enemy. They are by far and at large the most efficient at this so they carry the responsibility of optimizing their skillset for the situation they are in. Healers OTOH have a large portion of skills that go unused, particularly in NM 8-man content. On top of this, they have fewer offensive skills than both DPS and tanks, and 90% of those are situational, have long CDs, or are a resource spender.

Another way to look at this is healers have the fewest amount of skills that are exclusive to them: SMN and RDM can raise players. Many DPS jobs are capable of providing raid mitigation and offensive boosts. Tanks can heal themselves and group members, especially WAR. Jobs in both Tank and DPS roles can also provide HoTs. When you think about it all healers have that are exclusive is on demand cleanses and Rescue. Both of which tend to rely on player incompetence or unawareness to be useful.

[Boblawblah]

DPS responsibility is pretty static in all content regardless of difficulty: Kill the enemy. They are by far and at large the most efficient at this so they carry the responsibility of optimizing their skillset for the situation they are in. Healers OTOH have a large portion of skills that go unused, particularly in NM 8-man content. On top of this, they have fewer offensive skills than both DPS and tanks, and 90% of those are situational, have long CDs, or are a resource spender.

Another way to look at this is healers have the fewest amount of skills that are exclusive to them: SMN and RDM can raise players. Many DPS jobs are capable of providing raid mitigation and offensive boosts. Tanks can heal themselves and group members, especially WAR. Jobs in both Tank and DPS roles can also provide HoTs. When you think about it all healers have that are exclusive is on demand cleanses and Rescue. Both of which tend to rely on player incompetence or unawareness to be useful.

I'm not sure what that has to do with healers being less important than dps. Healers could have a single spell and they'd still be more important than dps.

[klutzz]

I'm not sure what that has to do with healers being less important than dps. Healers could have a single spell and they'd still be more important than dps.

Because the way the game is predominantly optimized by players is to maximize DPS as much as humanly possible while still being able to clear. If you can do it without a healer, you can get more damage, get faster clears, its more "optimal". Tanks hold enmity and are the only ones who can take TBs and the autos from the bosses, DPS do the most damage, healers in theory should be the ones keeping people alive.... but if you don't actually need them to do that its better to get rid of them in an "optimized" composition to increase damage output.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Because the way the game is predominantly optimized by players is to maximize DPS as much as humanly possible while still being able to clear. If you can do it without a healer, you can get more damage, get faster clears, its more "optimal". Tanks hold enmity and are the only ones who can take TBs and the autos from the bosses, DPS do the most damage, healers in theory should be the ones keeping people alive.... but if you don't actually need them to do that its better to get rid of them in an "optimized" composition to increase damage output.

And this is my main problem. Healers are useless in this game's meta, which its weird for a game that uses the role trinity.

[Gemina]

And this is my main problem. Healers are useless in this game's meta, which its weird for a game that uses the role trinity.

I wouldn't call them useless. As I said in the thread about the Ultimate clear, they are still a safety net, and most groups still need them to fix mistakes. Their LB3 is also used to cheese mechanics like Immolation in Mt. Ordeals EX. Tanks and DPS still cannot replenish health with the same efficiency that healers do, but this is not needed for a group composed of highly skilled players.

[Atelier-Bagur]

I wouldn't call them useless. As I said in the thread about the Ultimate clear, they are still a safety net, and most groups still need them to fix mistakes. Their LB3 is also used to cheese mechanics like Immolation in Mt. Ordeals EX. Tanks and DPS still cannot replenish health with the same efficiency that healers do, but this is not needed for a group composed of highly skilled players.

But this is also prevalent in normal casual group content though. It already has been proven multiple times how lack of healers is more efficient to complete content due to the imbalance. I understand that obviously not everyone is a pro gamer, but the whole point of having balance patches is to keep each role and job fair for every comp without compromising the other. Skilled players shouldnt compromise other skilled players.

Just imagine how healers feel, knowing that your job is actually this gimped that efficient runs of current hard content doesnt require you at all? I mean you just admitted yourself that highly skilled players dont need healers in your last sentence. You dont find that odd? You dont find that be a serious problem with the balancing of this game?

[Ransu]

And this is my main problem. Healers are useless in this game's meta, which its weird for a game that uses the role trinity.

Lets be real for a minute. Your average and even to a point above average players are not going to be doing things like that group that cleared TOP without a healer or even just your average savage fight. Tanks having self healing is absolutely a problem, but healers are not useless in the current meta. Only the extreme of the extreme are pulling stunts like that.

[GrimGale]

Lets be real for a minute. Your average and even to a point above average players are not going to be doing things like that group that cleared TOP without a healer or even just your average savage fight. Tanks having self healing is absolutely a problem, but healers are not useless in the current meta. Only the extreme of the extreme are pulling stunts like that.

It means that you can optimize a role away.

It means that in this fight, healers are a crutch, not a necessity. One third of the trinity which supposedly is made so that players have a reason to group up together, relying on the strenth of their jobs to fill in the gaps in for a well balanced team, is redundant in Current, highest end content.

Can you do the same with DPS classes? Can you optimize them away? How about tanks?

It doesn't matter that only a few people can do no-healer runs. It means that when you truly optimize your team composition to the extreme, healers are no longer necessary. It means that in order to get the most of out of this content you have to exclude a whole Role.

[ForteNightshade]

Lets be real for a minute. Your average and even to a point above average players are not going to be doing things like that group that cleared TOP without a healer or even just your average savage fight. Tanks having self healing is absolutely a problem, but healers are not useless in the current meta. Only the extreme of the extreme are pulling stunts like that.

This is missing the point though. While the overwhelming majority of parties will keep the standard comp, seeing things like this demonstrates just how little value healers contribute relatively their trinity counterparts. Pulling up a random P5S run, I have 175 casts of Glare and 111 casts of every other ability combined. Yes, including Dia and Assize which are damage buttons. 61.1% of my contributions to that clear were spamming a single DPS button. A mere 13.2% of my casts were towards healing, and this is me both playing sub-optimally and counting Assize and Rapture casts as always healing necessary when I can assure you, they weren't. This is a rare run where I used Solace and even Medica II.

So my contributes as a DPS were nearly five times higher than as a healer. That's the issue people have with the healer design in this game right now, be it from the kits themselves or the encounters. You aren't a healer, you're a gimped damage dealer regardless of the content you do.

Because WAR has always been SE's "Golden Child". Whenever they want something, they get it.

Okay, this may have been true in Heavensward but it stopped being years ago. Warrior has spent the last two expansions as the worst tank in high end content and even been actively locked out in Abyssos. Dark Knight has more than three times its clear rates for both Ultimates, and Dark Knight/Gunbreaker dominated throughout all of Shadowbringers and Endwalker.

They've had to buff Warrior five separate times this expansion. If that's "Golden Child" status, Dark Knight must be a living legend.