Are all the Tanks identical?

[fulminating]

Bloodbath was 30 seconds of lifesteal in 90. The potency is stupid, but all that‘s different is the duration and cooldown are shorter.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Actual madlads, respect. Can see how they did that with the heal/shield rotation and heal buffs.

well the mad lads did it, they cleared TOP with no healer, https://youtu.be/svhRFO34_F8

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

well the mad lads did it, they cleared TOP with no healer, https://youtu.be/svhRFO34_F8

Heard about it. Not sure if I feel like tanks and dps are endlessly more interestingly designed to make such a feat possible or Healers being awfully designed in both being somewhat needed and having a cohesive damage kit.

The question is rethorical, it is both. Mad grats to them.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Heard about it. Not sure if I feel like tanks and dps are endlessly more interestingly designed to make such a feat possible or Healers being awfully designed in both being somewhat needed and having a cohesive damage kit.

The question is rethorical, it is both. Mad grats to them.

yea absolutely, like they've definitely diverted away from interesting or unique gameplay to a degree, but a lot I still don't necessarily put on the shoulders of the devs, but personally I feel most of the homogenisation or loss of uniqueness is on the players for their incessant demands of 'that job has this and I like it so I want it for my job' and eventually it gets trickled down into the job design, and then players are shock pikachu face when the change happens and then say I didn't ask for this. Kind of reminds me of darker fantasies with a djinn, where you make a wish without out any care or thought and it comes out horribly wrong.

Like most of the homogenisation started with WAR as far as I am concerned, as soon as players complained that it was too difficult, and Inner Release was made a Requiescat clone, and people complained that Shake it Off was useless so made it a clone of Devine Veil clone, was when homogenisation really began.

While yes Rampart in the role actions was probably the first skill to be homogenised, again that was mostly because WAR mains complained that Foresight was dog water, and kept asking for rampart, devs took the backward approach of removing Foresight and Shadowskin and popping in rampart as a role action, but I don't think apart from a loss of an animation that is usually blurred by other animations on a heavily bloated animation job is that big of a loss personally since the effect still persists identically in Rampart.

that aside, I remember seeing you comment on it here so thought I would share to link in case you weren't aware, and again it is a fair play the group was able to get the clear

[Renathras]

Heard about it. Not sure if I feel like tanks and dps are endlessly more interestingly designed to make such a feat possible or Healers being awfully designed in both being somewhat needed and having a cohesive damage kit.

The question is rethorical, it is both. Mad grats to them.

You missed one: The encounter design/unvoidable party damage and rate of damage once mitigation is factored in and non-Healer healing is factored in.

[Absurdity]

Like most of the homogenisation started with WAR as far as I am concerned, as soon as players complained that it was too difficult, and Inner Release was made a Requiescat clone, and people complained that Shake it Off was useless so made it a clone of Devine Veil clone, was when homogenisation really began.

Yes and no. The issue wasn't how hard 4.0/4.1 warrior was to play, but that even playing it perfectly barely made you do more dps than a PLD pressing Holy Spirit 5 times. The reward for executing what was arguably the most difficult tank was basically nonexistent, and fights like Neo Exdeath with it's enmity reset pretty much made it impossible to do your proper Inner Release windows.

The fact that SE then completely dumbed the job down with the 4.2 rework is not the player's fault.

And Shake was pretty much useless, not because of it's original effect but because said effect didn't work half the time.

[dspguy]

Nascent Flash came out in ShB and 2 years after that, they gave WAR Bloodwhetting - essentially doubling down on the self-healing... while granting GNB and PLD their own (not as strong) self-healing abilities and then addressed DRK's invuln to allow them to self-heal as well. That's the direction they are going. Maybe they've gone too far though.

[Sqwall]

Given how NF worked, it seems reasonable to say that BW is "working as intended."

The strength of BW doesn't change anything about how similar the tanks are. All tanks cycle through cooldowns (sometimes pairing a strong one with a weaker one) or filling in the time between the short CD abilities with a self-heal, etc. They all play similarly. 2-step AOE chain that builds some sort of gauge (or gains MP) that is then expended for a tertiary AOE. Same with single-target. Some jobs are more busy (like GNB and DRK). But in the end, the jobs are more-or-less cookie cutter. Tank choice (for the most part) is what sort of weapon you want. It might as well be a glamour at this point.

BW in a savage setting is highly valuable. My healers can always tell when i'm not using it or not timing in correctly. P8S 1-2 is perfect example. During snakes and centaur the MT isn't taking autos...so BW is useless since 99% of the time i'm topped off, and allowing me to use it more intelligently when I need it most. Same goes for part 2 outside of shared autos for the tanks. Again, not taking any damage. During normal autos during P8S BW is a huge boon for warrior, as it's mitigation, heal shield, and heal on attack, plus it's on a ridiculously short cooldown. I think the ONLY time i'm not mashing BW is during tank busters and not taking damage. During tank busters i'm tossing Nascent on the OT for help with damage, as it's just to good to NOT use Nascent....it's incredibly powerful skill. Even more powerful if I drop nascent during my burst, and typically can heal a DPS to full HP rather quickly, and save MP for healers. I do that all the time for our squishiest party members, and just say <so and so> has nascent. Healers just understand and don't burn MP for them

Warrior may be kinda meh in the tank department, but it certainly makes up for it with insanely good co-tank/healing aspects. They are like a pseudo healer/tank/dps all in one, with imo...the best invuln in the game due to it's short cooldown. However, I still favor PLD just because it's a beast in the mitigation department.

Also I have noticed a lot WAR not using shake it off to it's full advantage. Literally every single tank buster that doesn't use Holmgang I pop shake it off. I want the remainder of my vengeance and thrill buffed. Right before the hit pop vengance, gcd, thrill. After the hit pop shake it off for a buffed heal. Why not spread the buff to everyone, if not it's going to waste.

[Sqwall]

Honestly, I believe the real reason jobs are the way that they are now...is because it's insanely hard to balance. FFXIV does something that NO other...LITERALLY no other MMO in my purview does. It attempts to make the job you play...actually matter. You want to be a dancer...that's fine. You won't be bringing your team down....it's all balanced. Want to play DRG? Go right ahead....stab away dragon dude.

People play classes based on what they like, something of which other MMO's just don't listen to when players make the comment... "But I want to play this job!" To which those developers of those games say: "Sorry, we don't want to upset the current meta for balance issues...that's hard to do"

FFXIV bucks that trend and allows players to quite literally play...w/e the hell they want without the fear of fitting into this certain meta comp window just to enjoy success. Sure some statics may be looking for a phys ranged....but honestly...pick one. Sure some classes might have a little more damage then the next....put it's not WILDY out of control...typically within 2-4% difference. Can some savage encounters literally be that close yes....and some encounters may take a couple more weeks to get better gear....but it's not something that SE should bend the knee to. We saw them do that to all of this world first hoopla as streamers howled at the moon when they couldn't down the boss with the literal razor thin minimum ilevel to drop the boss. When all they had to do was wait...1 week? I think world first is great it's fun for the game community to engage, but I don't think SE or the dev team shouldnt give anyone a spec of help, nor change a single solitary thing. 1% change on P8S is nothing once you get all your appropriate gear after multiple clears from the first subsequent savage bosses. SE just bent the knee to the streaming community and balked at the issue.

Truth is. People want meta deep down. EVERYONE wants to do the BIGGEST number possible. FFXIV says....it doesn't matter...play what you like.....it doesn't matter. Personally I like the fact that I can go from warrior this raid tier....to PLD for P9-12S. And it won't make all that much of a difference.

[RyuDragnier]

Nascent Flash came out in ShB and 2 years after that, they gave WAR Bloodwhetting - essentially doubling down on the self-healing... while granting GNB and PLD their own (not as strong) self-healing abilities and then addressed DRK's invuln to allow them to self-heal as well. That's the direction they are going. Maybe they've gone too far though.

I'd say they have gone a bit too far with the self-healing, at least for PLD and WAR. DRK I feel they haven't done enough with in that category. Personally, I consider GNB to be the gold standard on where you want your self-healing on tanks, a point where it's not too powerful, but not too weak.