TOP cleared with no healers

[MisterNublet]

Try this, go to Radz at Han, Limsa, and Gridania and fill the chat logs with shouts that TOP was cleared without healers, and see what kind of response you get.

And? This isn't some gotcha that you think it is. TOP is just another example showing how poor of a state the healer role is currently in and the state of utility among DPS/Tanks being too powerful.

They're not needed for casual/dungeon content. They're a snooze fest if your team is even halfway competent in Extreme/Savage content. They have their entire dps kit starting at level 4, and press the same button ~90% of the time.

No one wants to continue playing a role that's only function is to be there for garbage dps/tank players. That's not how you design a fun and interesting role.

What actually makes you think either of those will happen, other than wishful thinking?

There will be other MMOs coming out. I've also never seen or heard dps players or tank players fight to see who can be the healer for the next tier, as hard as I've seen healers fight over who can gtfo of the role.

[Gemina]

And? This isn't some gotcha that you think it is. TOP is just another example showing how poor of a state the healer role is currently in and the state of utility among DPS/Tanks being too powerful.

It's not a gotcha. The gotcha is what's being attempted by saying a set of skilled players cleared TOP without healers. Exception is never the rule. Instead of commending the efforts of those players, you are instead using it to chastise the dev team and the state of healing in this game. I can't even begin to express how shameful that is. What if TOP was cleared without players using their soulstones? Are we going to start saying that jobs are useless as well? I bring that up because Iirc, Creator was cleared by a group of players not using their Soulstones back during HW, and nothing like that was said. Those players were indeed congratulated. Also, I am actually genuinely curious to what kind of response a player would get if they went to the game's more populated areas during peak times, and started shouting this. At the very least, it would clue you in to how much the general playerbase cares about such things.

No one wants to continue playing a role that's only function is to be there for garbage dps/tank players. That's not how you design a fun and interesting role.

I enjoy it. So do a lot of other players. However, I don't think the problem is so much with healing as I do that other roles, particularly tanks have a ridiculous amount of self sustain. Also encounter design in general. Of course, the typical rebuttal to this argument is I don't even know what I am talking about, and/or I enjoy mediocre gameplay and crap job design.

There will be other MMOs coming out. I've also never seen or heard dps players or tank players fight to see who can be the healer for the next tier, as hard as I've seen healers fight over who can gtfo of the role.

Ok. Players skipping FFXIV to play other mmos will affect all the roles. Not just healers. Do you think just healer mains are going to jump ship to play other games? Also, quite often when I hop into PF when I am in the mood to heal content, those slots are often filled up, and I have to go as DPS instead, or do something else. Whose experience is more valid here?

[MisterNublet]

Instead of commending the efforts of those players, you are instead using it to chastise the dev team and the state of healing in this game.

The dev team 100% deserves to be chastise especially after Yoshi-Ps tone deaf "Go play ultimate" bs when he was questioned about the state of healers lack of healing/dps.

I can't even begin to express how shameful that is.

K.

What if TOP was cleared without players using their soulstones?

Then we would be questioning why it was labeled as an ultimate in the first place. If TOP was cleared without Tanks or DPS, then we would be having a discussion about those jobs.

Are we going to start saying that jobs are useless as well? I bring that up because Iirc, Creator was cleared by a group of players not using their Soulstones back during HW, and nothing like that was said. Those players were indeed congratulated. Also, I am actually genuinely curious to what kind of response a player would get if they went to the game's more populated areas during peak times, and started shouting this. At the very least, it would clue you in to how much the general playerbase cares about such things.

Irrelevant. This is a discussion about the current state of healers while involving on patch content being cleared without one of the major roles.

I enjoy it. So do a lot of other players. However, I don't think the problem is so much with healing as I do that other roles, particularly tanks have a ridiculous amount of self sustain. Of course, the typical response to this argument is I don't even know what I am talking about, and/or I enjoy mediocre gameplay and crap job design.

I'm happy that you still enjoy the healer role. If you keep having multiple people tell you the same thing, then there might be some truth to it.

Ok. Players skipping FFXIV to play other mmos will affect all the roles. Not just healers. Do you think just healer mains are going to jump ship to play other games? Also, quite often when I hop into PF when I am in the mood to heal content, those slots are often filled up, and I have to go as DPS instead, or do something else. Whose experience is more valid here?

I have quit other MMOs for the same issues FFXIVs healers are experiencing. I've seen others do the same.

I guess we're also forgetting the whole healer shortage this tier experienced and Yoshi-Ps heartfelt "please give healers a try" comment.

[Gemina]

The dev team 100% deserves to be chastise especially after Yoshi-Ps tone deaf "Go play ultimate" bs when he was questioned about the state of healers lack of healing/dps.



K.



Then we would be questioning why it was labeled as an ultimate in the first place. If TOP was cleared without Tanks or DPS, then we would be having a discussion about those jobs.


Irrelevant. This is a discussion about the current state of healers while involving on patch content being cleared without one of the major roles.



I'm happy that you still enjoy the healer role. If you keep having multiple people tell you the same thing, then there might be some truth to it.



I have quit other MMOs for the same issues FFXIVs healers are experiencing. I've seen others do the same.

I guess we're also forgetting the whole healer shortage this tier experienced and Yoshi-Ps heartfelt "please give healers a try" comment.

I'm not getting into this today. I don't have the energy, time, or patience for a hackneyed healer debate. We will just have to agree to disagree bud. Try to enjoy the game.

Huge congratulations to this team of players.

[ForteNightshade]

Exception is never the rule.

Every single fight in this entire game has been solo healed on content. All four tanks, yes even Dark Knight, can blow through 90 dungeons without a healer. Hydaelyn and Zodiark were killed the week on Endwalker's launch without healers. While this is an exception at the Ultimate level, it does speak on to the poor design of both healers and the content itself because even Extremes shouldn't be killable at their relevant ilvl without a healer. That doesn't take away from the accomplishment.

Instead of commending the efforts of those players, you are instead using it to chastise the dev team and the state of healing in this game.

You can do both. They aren't mutually exclusive. This is simply strawmanning.

What if TOP was cleared without players using their soulstones? Are we going to start saying that jobs are useless as well? I bring that up because Iirc, Creator was cleared by a group of players not using their Soulstones back during HW, and nothing like that was said. Those players were indeed congratulated. Also, I am actually genuinely curious to what kind of response a player would get if they went to the game's more populated areas during peak times, and started shouting this. At the very least, it would clue you in to how much the general playerbase cares about such things.

That would just mean TOP is woefully undertuned and a complete joke. Classes simply don't have anywhere close to the kits and damage necessary to complete an Ultimate. As for Creator example. Do you mean normal mode because that never happened at the Savage level, which is all that matters as normal doesn't have an enrage. It's simply a war of attrition. So long as bodies are alive, you'll win, eventually. If you have video evidence to the contrary, I'll happily stand corrected.

Considering the general playerbase is among those upset with how healing in dungeons is practically non-existent, the response might be what you think it will. Nonetheless, it's wholly irrelevant because, once again, acknowledging the accomplishment of eight exceptionally skilled players and the poor state of healer design in FFXIV aren't mutually exclusive. Not to mention, your average player isn't going to really care one way or another in content that don't even do. If you asked those same players was balance in Abyssos good. They'll either shrug, admitting they don't know or may even say yes despite it objectively being false given how many jobs were buffed afterwards.

I enjoy it. So do a lot of other players. However, I don't think the problem is so much with healing as I do that other roles, particularly tanks have a ridiculous amount of self sustain. Also encounter design in general. Of course, the typical rebuttal to this argument is I don't even know what I am talking about, and/or I enjoy mediocre gameplay and crap job design.

You don't partake in high end content, which is what this discussion centers around. I recall you not even having a character at 90 for months into Endwalker's life cycle. Which is fine... until you want to comment on the healing requirements (or lack thereof) in Savage and Ultimate. You don't know what you're talking about because you literally don't do the content. That is an entirely fair rebuttal in this context.

Now I will agree tank's have an absurd amount of healing, which is a factor. However, nerfing all of it to the ground won't make healer gameplay in high end content any better. You'll still be spamming a single button more than your entire kit combined. All it does is maybe force the occasional Cure II/E.Diag/Adlo/Benefic II. Trading a Glare cast for one of those isn't exactly riveting gameplay.

[Boblawblah]

You don't partake in high end content, which is what this discussion centers around. I recall you not even having a character at 90 for months into Endwalker's life cycle. Which is fine... until you want to comment on the healing requirements (or lack thereof) in Savage and Ultimate. You don't know what you're talking about because you literally don't do the content. That is an entirely fair rebuttal in this context.

Now I will agree tank's have an absurd amount of healing, which is a factor. However, nerfing all of it to the ground won't make healer gameplay in high end content any better. You'll still be spamming a single button more than your entire kit combined. All it does is maybe force the occasional Cure II/E.Diag/Adlo/Benefic II. Trading a Glare cast for one of those isn't exactly riveting gameplay.

So are you arguing that you want the high end content more difficult to force people to use healers? Or at least that healers are much more important in high end content?

If not that, how do you want high end content to change?

[Stormpeaks]

So are you arguing that you want the high end content more difficult to force people to use healers? Or at least that healers are much more important in high end content?

If not that, how do you want high end content to change?

it's almost like you are supposed to need healers in high end content

[ForteNightshade]

So are you arguing that you want the high end content more difficult to force people to use healers? Or at least that healers are much more important in high end content?

If not that, how do you want high end content to change?

Others have provided far better examples of healer changes on the Healer forums but to keep it simple, I either want more outgoing damage to actually necessitate healers or an overhaul on their DPS kit to give them something to do in downtime. The latter wouldn't impact casual players who simply won't press these new buttons anyway just like they don't use Battle Litany, Arcane Circle or other buffs properly. This is why the removal of Kaiten baffled and upset so many players. It achieved almost nothing due to bad players never pressing it to begin with and average and above players never asking for its removal in the first place. All it accomplished is watering down Samurai's gauge to be a "spam this whenever you feel like." Unless you're optimizing, of course.

For a specific example, take Barbarriccia. What I love about that fight is the fast pace nature of her damage. She's constantly keeps hitting you with incremental triage that leads up to a bigger burst. If her damage output was actually high, she's been one of the better fights in the entire game because you'd actually have to heal. The issue is since Shadowbringers, the devs keep introducing more healing, be it on the Healers themselves or on other roles but haven't adjusted the content to account for it. That mindset also contributes to why we absolutely destroy synced content. Their balance is all about accessibility. Which is great, in theory, but not when it's to this extreme.

We've essentially hit the opposite end of Gordias and Midas where everything hit far too hard for what was available at the time. Now nothing hits hard enough even at the higher difficulty levels. I mean, look at Rubicante. Yes, it's an EX but do you really think it should be clearable with 22 deaths on release? Or that we can drop tanks or healers entirely because literally nothing he does, even the tank buster, actually hurts.

[Somnolence]

Others have provided far better examples of healer changes on the Healer forums but to keep it simple, I either want more outgoing damage to actually necessitate healers or an overhaul on their DPS kit to give them something to do in downtime.

Once again, going to remind everyone, that there is already a healer in the game that can clear savage and has more than few buttons for DPS - blue mage. Their existing strong specialized heals might be enough that I would not be surprised if BLU does not get new heal spells in upcoming update.

All existing content is already clearable for this kind of healer so reworking existing healers to be more DPS focused will not require any content rework. And having few strong heals instead of existing fluff would allow to design new content to actually hurt.

[Sebazy]

So are you arguing that you want the high end content more difficult to force people to use healers? Or at least that healers are much more important in high end content?

If not that, how do you want high end content to change?

I missed this one sorry, it's an interesting question and I'll merrily expand on it.

Personally, if Uncle Yoshi came down and hired me overnight, I'd make a few changes. Some being quick fixes, some being more long term changes in design direction.

Literally the first thing I'd do before I took my jacket off would be to allow bosses to continue to auto attack through some means whilst casting. The main goal of this is to prevent situations like RubiEX where the fight literally goes well over a minute at a time between attacks. This also almost instantly course corrects the current lack of tank damage and brings value to once key abilities like Regen again.

Secondly, I'd have try to ensure that physically larger or multi sectioned bosses would be able to have multiple auto attacks with various different ways of deciding how those attacks are directed. Remember how large FFXI monsters were able to not only bite and claw, but could kick and spike flail (Tail cleave) as well? Think that, but all at the same time. Remember Rampage targets in Everquest? The goal is something similar to that but ideally more erratic and obviously scaled appropriately for the content. The idea isn't to one shot people randomly, but rather the idea is to actually force healers to need to pay attention to the groups HP bars again even when content is on farm.

Third, I'd scale overall HP and single target heals upwards moderately, but keep AoE heals where they are or maybe even nerf them lightly. Right now you can comfortably heal most pre Savage end game content by doing little more than maintaining Medica II. You won't run out of MP and the healing is depressingly sufficient. That's not a situation I'm happy with. Mixing up the full party raidwides with the occasional need for actual somewhat unpredictable single target triage healing due to the usual Assize/Asylum/Soil/Star/WD spam not being able to cover it would do wonders to break up the current monotony IMO.

Fourth and probably not last, I'd look to drastically expand both the job and content design team's views on healing engagement. Healers need to stop being treated like green DPS in raid content when their kits just don't support that play style.

And yet almost no "casuals" do this. The people doing this tend to be high end players with their Static buddies wanting to farm faster clears. Casuals are just using DF.

https://youtu.be/T6MvwQWBMVg?t=471

Here's some pug casuals continuing on merrily on then peak endgame content after both healers went pop. The casuals might not be queuing up in this way but it doesn't mean they aren't finishing it long after the healers checked out.