Bring Back Kaiten

[CelestiCer]

Kaiten had one big issue. You had to use it 100% of the time on your Iaijutsu or the potency would be a waste.

That still doesn't make it a " Job Design issue " it makes it a " Skill issue " though... and we use it on Ogi Namikiri as well which doesn't make us use Kaiten on Iaijutsu 100% of the time... (where did all these non-Samurai players come from talking about something they barely used...)

I can apply your logic to any Job/Skill/Combo/Slidecast/Raidbuffs being miss-used or executed suboptimally, Kaiten is not unique in this sense... Making this as flawed of an argument as your Rigidity point, since this also doesn't stop any other Job from functioning either with rigidity or any limits put on them. Kaiten just meant that you had to weave it properly with Kenki management i.e players just suffer from " Skill-Issues " which also is not limited to SAM since SAM is not deemed as the hardest job ever. Even if you want to argue latency issues, MCH ranks higher on the list with this problem before SAMs Kaiten. It's removal should not have happened the way it did, that's about as much as I agree on with your post.

Miss execution of Kaiten is the literal point... where the game presents many ways for me to mess it up? But I choose to do it right and as perfectly as I can for a long period of time, resulting in Big Numbers, Big Crits, making it feel Satisfying. Compared to Shinten spamming? No matter how perfectly I exectute this into Raidbuffs? it feels weightless.

[Arohk]

That still doesn't make it a " Job Design issue " it makes it a " Skill issue " though...

Why not add 10 more buttons then , that do nothing in particular but you must use them every time before any other ability, oh too many buttons ? skill issue.

I Suggest we add Kaiten I Kaiten II and Kaiten III , each Kaiten is for a different Iaijutsu

[Deo14]

Why not add 10 more buttons then , that do nothing in particular but you must use them every time before any other ability, oh too many buttons ? skill issue.

I Suggest we add Kaiten I Kaiten II and Kaiten III , each Kaiten is for a different Iaijutsu

That doesn't sound bad. I would much rather have 3 Kaitens than 3 pairs of identical skills we have now. Casuals will mash whatever buttons they desire anyway, and people who want to get good will accept the new challenge, even though the challenge is merely finding good keybinds. But if they finally merged the ST/AoE oGCDs, we would even same amount of buttons AND have all the Kaitens we want! Well, I personally would have one extra free keybind, since I still have Kaiten on my Shift + F keybind 'til this day. But imagine 3 different animations for each Kaiten though, that sounds really sweet.

But because you're just trying to shitpost with "gotcha" argument, since you're probably impatient for tommorow's patch, I recommend this video on Kaiten:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIHj-1_Yn1U

[CelestiCer]

Why not add 10 more buttons then , that do nothing in particular but you must use them every time before any other ability, oh too many buttons ? skill issue.

I Suggest we add Kaiten I Kaiten II and Kaiten III , each Kaiten is for a different Iaijutsu

Rich, " GNB main " talking about... another Job having too many buttons claiming they do nothing in particular... or Skill-Issue with 1 button to much on a Job they don't play? You gone tell us next that you played SAM in high-end-content when Kaiten still existed for you to ever have played with Kaiten to even contribute anything to the thread-topic? ( might be a trick question cause like ya know you like haven't? )

Regardless!! Lets uno reverse, by your logic we will remove 10 things from GNB, lets apply your logic. Oh the pickings lets see, remove...

1. Brutal Shell
2. No Mercy
3. Jugular Rip
4. Rough Divide
5. Bow Shock
6. Blasting Zone
7. BloodFest
8. Abdomen Tear
9. Eye Gouge

Delete " Camouflage " as the 10th thing turn it in a passive or something for the exciting gameplay that change will do (obviously). Definitely can't call it Skill-Issue or Button Bloat at this point, but I doubt GNB is now improved...

We debunked the non-existing Button-Bloat issue of SAM with even better solutions to reduce button bloat beyond three buttons without needing to change the gameplay nor removing Kaiten " ages ago ". Like... did you missed the memo? ( where do these players come from... )

[Tamaerl]

We can only hope they will maybe give kaiten back in 7.0. I hate the current SAM rotation with all the shinten spam. I've come to hate shinten with a passion now, so much so that I hope some day shinten is deleted and wiped off the face of the earth. I've pretty much become a caster main now, because this current iteration of SAM just isn't fun.

[Bobby66]

Why not add 10 more buttons then , that do nothing in particular but you must use them every time before any other ability, oh too many buttons ? skill issue.

I Suggest we add Kaiten I Kaiten II and Kaiten III , each Kaiten is for a different Iaijutsu

That would be awesome, give me more buttons to press please.

[Arohk]

That would be awesome, give me more buttons to press please.

We should need this to play the game, anything below 50 hotkeys for singletarget rotation is not good enough.

[Deo14]

We should need this to play the game, anything below 50 hotkeys for singletarget rotation is not good enough.

When in doubt, try hyperbole to make your argument seem legit. Removing Kaiten removed single button, which didn't solve anything, it made Kenki another bland gauge and it made you spam shinten for 20-23% of your total button presses. You can check any decent SAM log to verify it. So what do you think is better, 35 buttons, with Kaiten making some ~8% of your total actions and Shinten ~12%, or have 34 buttons, but you spend 5th of your time pressing single bland skill.

[Arohk]

So what do you think is better, 35 buttons, with Kaiten making some ~8% of your total actions and Shinten ~12%, or have 34 buttons, but you spend 5th of your time pressing single bland skill.

I think it would be better to have an absolute maximum of 20 buttons for combat.
And i also think that combat in its core is not good in FF14 when compared to other MMOs, it starts with the awful movement and automatic turning to enemies, which makes you run the wrong direction.
The amount of abilities you need to push is just covering this up and you notice it mostly on bosses with narrow paths like P10 savage.

[Deo14]

I think it would be better to have an absolute maximum of 20 buttons for combat.
And i also think that combat in its core is not good in FF14 when compared to other MMOs, it starts with the awful movement and automatic turning to enemies, which makes you run the wrong direction.
The amount of abilities you need to push is just covering this up and you notice it mostly on bosses with narrow paths like P10 savage.

You can disable automatic turning to target, this means that you will need to look at the target yourself, but you won't have that awful 0.5s worth of running in wrong direction. Or you can get used to it, if you're not casting, you can jump before using a skill and it will not make you run in wrong direction since you cannot change direction mid-air. Not the best solution, but sometimes you know that it will try to fuck you up, so you can plan beforehand and just jump. Wall bosses are definitely worst for this.

Anyways, problem is that combat is already extremely barebones. 2.5 GCD, with few oGCDs sprinkled on top doesn't make very sophisticated gameplay. Average APM per each job is just like 30-47, which is piss low. There is no decision making, barely any DoTs to keep track of, no ailments, nothing. Meanwhile, GW2 has average of 70-80 APM, with outliers at 120 APM, very chaotic combat, sophisticated DoTs builds, active dodge, much more ground targeted skills, weapon swaps and so on. BDO has combos, complex positionals and other stuff.

FFXIV's combat is just too easy and way to simple. If you reduced each job to 20 buttons, combat will be officially brain dead. Having variety of buttons is last thing that keeps combat on some level, many people compare it to piano, and they're right. It's not about smashing buttons as fast as you can get, it's pretty much memory game, with very little variance and improvisation. If you wanted to reduce jobs to some 20 buttons, you will need to do more drastic changes to combat overall - like making removing oGCD vs GCD, all skills are now 1s long, and that's it. Or even worse, SE will keep doing what they're doing now, and they'll shift difficulty from playing your job correctly, to doing encounter correctly. Which results in making even wider gap between normal content and Savage.