Minor Idea: White Mage eddition

[Renathras]

I will point out for the hundredth time: the healer role is the -only one- that people regularly argue that we neeeeeeeeed a Boring One...

No it's not.

People say this about Tanking and DPSing. And have several options that fit it - WAR for Tanks and SMN for DPSers. Before SMN, it was RDM, BRD, and/or DNC.

It's actually been true for most of the game's history that each Role had at least one simple one, and the simple ones were often the most played, but always had adamant fans of its playstyle who didn't want it changed.

EDIT: And as I've told you before, this isn't even limited to FFXIV but tends to be true across MMOs and even into other genres. Most games have an "easy one" if they have a diverse set of options. FFXIV is no different. BRD was the "easy one" for much of the game's history in terms of DPS Jobs. WHM for Healers. Tanks were arguably the Role that didn't have an easy one until WAR drifted into that position, and PLD has somewhat joined it. And if you go look at the Tank forum, you'll see there are some PLD die-hard-opposed-to-6.3 people, but also a lot of people touting it as generally good and/or a step in the right direction.

A very common question on Reddit for FFXIV is "I want to pick up X role - which Job is the easy/easiest one?"

This isn't new or unique to Healers in any way. The only thing that's relatively new is people insisting there shouldn't be one.

[ASkellington]

No it's not.

Yeah it is. WAR still has the exact same template as the other 3 tanks - 1-2-3 combo ~6ish defensive options and a burst rotation - Fell Cleaves.

DRK also has discount Fell Cleave with dark arts spam. It literally is no different.

If all four tanks can have a 1-2-3 combo shared between them, there is 0 reason for 3 healers to get extra dps options and leave 1 behind.

You keep on insisting that adding the options therefor means WHM is no longer the "easy healer" when you are blatantly wrong since we can add the extra dps options WHILE STILL KEEPING WHM an easy to get into healer.

[Renathras]

Yeah it is.

No, it's not.

The question wasn't "how similar are the Tanks", nor was it "how many abilities can a thing have and still be simple"; it was "no other Role has people asking that there be a simple one. The other Roles ABSOLUTELY have people wanting a simple one and that is a thing people want.

At least read things before replying to them.

And for reference, they all ARE different:

GNB isn't at all like WAR. It doesn't have a 1-2-3/-4 upkeep buff with a burst rotation of "press one button then press another button 5 times". You can try to oversimplify it, but go into the Tank forum or FFXIV Discussion and say "WAR plays just like GNB" and you're likely to get laughed at, if not outright destroyed with a bunch of "well ackshually" people setting you straight.

WAR has a branching Combo. PLD used to, but now it's got a secondary sub-combo. GNB has an entire second combo interspaced with oGCD alternations. No, they are not "all the same", and no one who seriously theorycrafts or plays Tanks would make that statement. The closest two are DRK and WAR.

Your argument is akin to saying "Well, GNB has charges it has to manage based on completing its base combo to build to a big burst spender and secondary combo. So every Tank must have a 3 charge system with a big burst spender that consumes 2 charges and a secondary combo that consumes 1 and has a 30 sec CD on use."

No, that'd be STUPID. In fact, most of the Tanks are complaining when they think that the Tanks ARE moving towards each other. The biggest complaint about the PLD rework is "It makes PLD more like GNB". Yet you're insisting that all the Healers should be the same, when that's the very thing the Tanks are complaining about.

.

"No it's not." was correct.

[ASkellington]

No, it's not.

The question wasn't "how similar are the Tanks", nor was it "how many abilities can a thing have and still be simple"; it was "no other Role has people asking that there be a simple one. The other Roles ABSOLUTELY have people wanting a simple one and that is a thing people want.

At least read things before replying to them.

And for reference, they all ARE different:

If you're going to argue, READ WHAT I SAID.

ALL 4 have a 1-2-3 combo.

ALL 4 have the same Defensive CDs just renamed

AND ALL FOUR HAVE A BURST ROTATION.

Do go back and read with glasses this time WHERE exactly I said that WAR's burst rotation WAS THE SAME AS GNB's?

That's the thing. I didn't. YOU DID. Stop putting words in my mouth to fit your narrative that isn't there.

I compared DRK and WAR. Not WAR and GNB.

The point is, people keep saying that "oh healers can't have this because they need to focus on healing". I DON'T SEE TANKS HAVING ANY PROBLEM WITH A 3 STEP BASE COMBO ROTATION ON TOP OF A BURST ROTATION WHILE MITIGATING. So why there for are people so insistent on having healers that way is why I even made the comparison between them in the first place.

[Renathras]

If you're going to argue, READ WHAT I SAID.

Follow the conversation:

I will point out for the hundredth time: the healer role is the -only one- that people regularly argue that we neeeeeeeeed a Boring One That Sucks, because if we don't it's too "pressuring" and "scary" and "the queues would collapse

No it's not.

People say this about Tanking and DPSing. And have several options that fit it - WAR for Tanks and SMN for DPSers. Before SMN, it was RDM, BRD, and/or DNC.

It's actually been true for most of the game's history that each Role had at least one simple one, and the simple ones were often the most played, but always had adamant fans of its playstyle who didn't want it changed.

Yeah it is. WAR still has the exact same template as the other 3 tanks - 1-2-3 combo ~6ish defensive options and a burst rotation - Fell Cleaves.

DRK also has discount Fell Cleave with dark arts spam. It literally is no different.

If all four tanks can have a 1-2-3 combo shared between them, there is 0 reason for 3 healers to get extra dps options and leave 1 behind.

[I added just the underlines "as the other 3 tanks" and "all four tanks", the rest are original.]

Ahem:

The question wasn't "how similar are the Tanks", nor was it "how many abilities can a thing have and still be simple"; it was "no other Role has people asking that there be a simple one. The other Roles ABSOLUTELY have people wanting a simple one and that is a thing people want.

...

"No it's not." was correct.

.

The one thing hilariously annoying to me about this subforum is that whenever one of you guys does something wrong and gets caught in it, not only will the person not admit to it, not only will they not apologize, not only will the weaponize it as yet another attack, but then for the next week or two, everyone else will attempt to "I know you are but what am I?" push it onto me even when it doesn't apply.

I read your post. You compared DRK and WAR while insisting that you were referring to ALL FOUR Tanks. You said all four, and were giving an example using the two most similar to prove it. Then when called out, you backed off on the point and tried to use it as a "You don't read people's posts!!!" attack when I very clearly read your post; the issue was you neither read mine nor were keeping up with the conversation when you decided to interject without even being right about the thing you chose to interject about. We both know what you meant to say, but by all means, pretend in saying "the tanks are all the same" you DIDN'T mean "the tanks are all the same":

WAR still has the exact same template as the other 3 tanks - 1-2-3 combo ~6ish defensive options and a burst rotation

"I said they all have the exact same template, but I didn't MEAN they were the same! Stop putting my own words into my mouth!"

EVERY Job looks the same from a far enough zoom. Every Job in the game dodges mechanics and pushes buttons on their keyboard. That isn't what makes things the same. That's what makes it a videogame.

EDIT:

e: as indicated by the tank forum thread and the ffxivdiscussion thread, the orange and red boxes are really rather similar in practice

The Reddit thread is largely people saying "they're the same if you don't look closely, but they're not at all the same". There are several concurrent discussions, but that seems to be the gist of it, including some people saying "But if we get into the nuance of each tank and applied even a single braincell, then that person either has no idea what they’re talking about, or they were being extremely hyperbolic for the sake of their argument."

[fulminating]

"I said they all have the exact same template, but I didn't MEAN they were the same! Stop putting my own words into my mouth!"

EVERY Job looks the same from a far enough zoom. Every Job in the game dodges mechanics and pushes buttons on their keyboard. That isn't what makes things the same. That's what makes it a videogame.

I think this explains it



e: as indicated by the tank forum thread and the ffxivdiscussion thread, the orange and red boxes are really rather similar in practice

[ASkellington]

"I said they all have the exact same template, but I didn't MEAN they were the same! Stop putting my own words into my mouth!"

I can't tell if you're being obtuse or just failing to understand.

I'll make it easy for you even though its a lost cause with you because you don't even want to try.

The BURST ROTATION is what SEPARATES the tanks hence why I only mentioned it (and why I compared WAR and DRK in the first place).

I compared the BASIC ROTATION between the four of them BECAUSE they're exactly the same to prove a point.

So YES you were putting words in my mouth when you said:

GNB isn't at all like WAR. It doesn't have a 1-2-3/-4 upkeep buff with a burst rotation of "press one button then press another button 5 times". You can try to oversimplify it, but go into the Tank forum or FFXIV Discussion and say "WAR plays just like GNB" and you're likely to get laughed at, if not outright destroyed with a bunch of "well ackshually" people setting you straight.

I NEVER SAID GNB was akin to WAR outside of the 1-2-3 combo, WHICH WAR STILL HAS. I didn't add the extra 4 because it doesn't add much to get my point across, I don't expect people to be that nitpicky, and I'm trying to keep my posts CONCISE. Which, it does.

And even YOU said WAR and DRK were pretty much the same, WHICH I ALSO SAID.

And no my argument does NOT boil down to giving every healer the same thing. YOU THINK DOES, but I've NEVER EXPLICITLY SAID SO. If you want my thoughts how about you ASK instead of ASSUMING.

I've purposefully not given my thoughts on how to diversify the healers IN DETAIL because I quite frankly find 0 interest in fleshing out abilities with numbers instead of giving a basic summary and what I would like to see out of this game, the game ISN'T going to do and I'm in the minority when it comes to adding in these things.

And believe you me, no one wants my idea of WHM.

[ForsakenRoe]

And believe you me, no one wants my idea of WHM.

Bet, post it I'm always down to read a healer rework idea. Whether I agree with it is a completely different story