How MUCH healing can non-Healers do?

[Deceptus]

Was it an increase over Holy?

I have argued that we need "Water" at level 15 to be a low level spell that upgrades to Holy at 45, as that does seem to be a hole in our kit (not that Healers are the only ones with this issue of oddly late AOE buttons...), but Blizzard 2 was a damage loss over Holy once you got it, was it not?

It wasn't, but it was accessible at lvl 10 whereas Holy was accessed at lvl 45.

[ForsakenRoe]

Is it really a hole in the kit that healers cannot AOE at low level? Every healer gets their AOE at 45-46, it seems to be 'by design'. Giving WHM 'a weaker version of Holy' would just make every other healer want to have the same.

If the potencies and durations were rebalanced as I want them to be (for WHM at least), AOE gameplay at low levels would be to multidot everything with super bursty, short duration DOT effects. None of this 'it's actually a DPS loss if the mob doesn't live for at least 15s' rubbish we have at level cap

[Silver-Strider]

Is it really a hole in the kit that healers cannot AOE at low level? Every healer gets their AOE at 45-46, it seems to be 'by design'. Giving WHM 'a weaker version of Holy' would just make every other healer want to have the same.

If the potencies and durations were rebalanced as I want them to be (for WHM at least), AOE gameplay at low levels would be to multidot everything with super bursty, short duration DOT effects. None of this 'it's actually a DPS loss if the mob doesn't live for at least 15s' rubbish we have at level cap

Sure, they can have it, as soon as WHM gets an answer for every low level oGCD that every other healer has.

[Conchoidal]

Is it really a hole in the kit that healers cannot AOE at low level? Every healer gets their AOE at 45-46, it seems to be 'by design'. Giving WHM 'a weaker version of Holy' would just make every other healer want to have the same.

It really is, especially considering that most legacy jobs have at least some form of AoE before the mid-point of the ARR MSQ (just before unlocking Hauke Manor), with the exception of Dragoon and Ninja, and especially in the case of SCH which loses access to an AoE spell (Outburst). I don't really think anyone really wants healers to have lesser forms of their default AoE (it's already lazy to have every healer unlock a new filler spell every expansion with +10 potency), instead it makes more sense for them to have a low-level AoE spell which can be used in single target scenarios (or enhanced with traits).

[Renathras]

The 'Ring of Timely Strikes', then?

I have no idea what this is, but that name sounds familiar.

Anyone remember Legend of Dragoon? I think it had some accessory that did something like this. It auto-completed the (proto-quicktime) combos you did. For those who don't know, Legend of Dragoon was a PS1 "J"RPG made by Sony (I put the J in quotes because I think it was made in the US) that I can best describe as "If you mixed Final Fantasy 8 with Power Rangers". But what's important here is that the character basic attacks (except the archer party member(s)) had multi-hits to them, which required the player to hit the X button in time with the swings to get the full combo (Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars also had something similar back on the SNES). You did this in normal form and you'd build up points making the combos stronger over time and unlocking new combos (Xenogears had a system similar to that last part, but it wasn't time based on the inputs). And even when transformed into armored Dragoon form, your regular attack had a combo system, though it was a bit different.

Anyway, there was an accessory you could equip which lowered the resources generated by the combos (they generated resources for you to activate your armor transformations into your characters' more powerful forms) but had the AI perform the complete combo automatically, which was useful for leveling or executing some of the harder combos if you couldn't quite get the timing down (Lantz/Albert's spinning spear attacks being a notoriously good example of this).

Are you guys suggesting something akin to that in the options? o.O

I'm not QUITE sure it makes sense in this kind of game, though. But, then again, people are pushing for 1 button combos for Melee/Tanks all the time (which ironically would make Tank gameplay more like current Healer gameplay...Misshapen Chair did make the point he'd hate that to be mandatory, and I can understand why, for someone who likes needless extra button presses to achieve the same result...), so hard to say.

It wasn't, but it was accessible at lvl 10 whereas Holy was accessed at lvl 45.

Right, but we're talking relevant actions at level cap in a given expansion.

I do agree it'd be nice if Healers got lower level AOE, but it wasn't a separately used ability in ARR for level cap content. Contrast with Aero 1, which SCH could Cross-Class from CNJ, which WAS used by them in level cap content.

Aside: I still propose "Water" as a spell gained by WHM at level 15 or so as an AOE centered on the caster (look at the FF8 Vivi Water spell animation - it's a big bubble that forms, rises into the air, and then bursts, just like Holy's cast today is...and I think it's an AOE spell in that game, too), and then have it upgrade to Holy at the level 45 Job Quest (where you get Holy today). Would take care of that problem and give us the third element spell CNJ lacks.

...

One thing I agree with Ty on is it would be nice to get the AOE spells use in single target boss fights. PART OF THE PROBLEM is that the AOE ones are (excepting AST) all centered on the caster melee range abilities. If they were ranged, that'd fix that problem, but APPARENTLY having a ranged AOE makes a Job braindead. Like how AST is the most braindead Healer since it has a ranged AOE. (/sarcasm) It's why I've supported Holy being made like Cure 3 (can be centered on the caster or a target) or Art of War ranged, make it like Ruin 2/4, like Nizzi suggested - I really liked Nizzi's suggestion, even if it was probably sarcasm.

If Holy worked like Cure 3, then having an empowered version usable as either a Dia proc or every X (probably 3) Glare casts would be feasible and allow a break in the otherwise GCD Glarespam. Give the button a reason to exist during boss fights that don't have adds (which is almost every boss fight these days - even when boss fights DO have adds, you often have to keep them apart anyway.)

[ForsakenRoe]

Ring of Timely Strikes is the 'press one button to auto do your attack skills in sequence' easy-mode enabling accessory for FF16. You probably recognise the name because of the recent gameplay trailer where Yoshi accidentally attacked the dog instead of petting it

edit for this bit:

Aside: I still propose "Water" as a spell gained by WHM at level 15 or so as an AOE centered on the caster (look at the FF8 Vivi Water spell animation - it's a big bubble that forms, rises into the air, and then bursts, just like Holy's cast today is...and I think it's an AOE spell in that game, too), and then have it upgrade to Holy at the level 45 Job Quest (where you get Holy today). Would take care of that problem and give us the third element spell CNJ lacks.

I'd rather see it as a separate GCD as we've been over before. I don't personally see how it's a massive issue for healers to lack a damage skill at lower levels (ie, below 45). I know the dungeons in that range are already completely dumpstered in terms of balance, but consider, adding a low level AOE skill would surely 'make the casuals think they HAVE to do damage' more, right? But also, IIRC in 8 it was singletarget (but very strong because it only had one level), and more memorably, in FF10 it was not only singletarget but had three levels, as a counterpart to Fire/Fira Firaga, Blizzard/Blizzara etc you get the idea, and as the opposing element to the Thunder line. TLDR is, it's been a single target skill in way more instances than it has been AOE. Only 'AOE' version that comes to mind besides the games where you can 'press left to target all enemies' which is possible in those with any spell, not unique to Water, is FFTA, where most spells target a + shape AOE of one tile, and then the four cardinals of that tile. But even then, that's kinda shared with other spells in that game.

Also Vivi's from 9 but I assume it's a typo, and I don't recall there being a Water in 9 so I went off of 8

edit edit: checking the wiki, it seems that it can be either ST or AOE in 9, player's choice, so I maintain the above

[Conchoidal]

If Holy worked like Cure 3, then having an empowered version usable as either a Dia proc or every X (probably 3) Glare casts would be feasible and allow a break in the otherwise GCD Glarespam. Give the button a reason to exist during boss fights that don't have adds (which is almost every boss fight these days - even when boss fights DO have adds, you often have to keep them apart anyway.)

Not necessarily, we know that AoE spells centred around the self are still capable of fall-off damage (i.e. Stormblood's iteration of Holy which dealt decreasing amounts of damage to each additional enemy) so an "empowered" Holy which deals damage around the caster could still be used in single target scenarios without being overpowered with multiple targets, although ideally it would be preferred if there was a method for the game engine to increase the radius of spell effects (this might have happened with the Expanded Royal Road effect but we can't test this anymore).

Another idea for AoE/single target spells could be a trait which increases the spell's potency (e.g. for our hypothetical Water spell) when only a single enemy is attacked, which we know the game engine can support with SAM's PVP Ogi Namikiri (which deals 50% more damage when attacking only a single target).

[Deceptus]

Is it really a hole in the kit that healers cannot AOE at low level? Every healer gets their AOE at 45-46, it seems to be 'by design'. Giving WHM 'a weaker version of Holy' would just make every other healer want to have the same.

Every single job should have a basic aoe by level 15. All of them.

[Sebazy]

Right, but we're talking relevant actions at level cap in a given expansion.

Blizzard 2 was very much used by SCHs at the level cap in ARR and HW up until it’s removal, I don’t think I have any old recordings left now but the best DPS for SCH was dotting and baneing on pull as many times as you could, then shadowflare into blizz 2 spam once the tank planted. In HW SCH could handily out DPS WHM in dungeons this way.

[Renathras]

Blizzard 2 was very much used by SCHs at the level cap in ARR and HW up until it’s removal, I don’t think I have any old recordings left now but the best DPS for SCH was dotting and baneing on pull as many times as you could, then shadowflare into blizz 2 spam once the tank planted. In HW SCH could handily out DPS WHM in dungeons this way.

Right, but the comparison was WHM abilities in ARR vs EW, not SCH.

SPECIFICALLY, WHM, because it has only 1 less damage spell now than it had then. SCH is a case everyone already agrees on because it had SO MANY more it's not even a point of contention. It's why we aren't mentioning Aero 1, because we're talking about WHM not SCH...because SCH is so obviously deficient now vs ARR that we all openly agree on that point.

It's why even my position on this point is "Give SCH back its SB toolkit".

.

EDIT: To make the point clear:

SCH in EW:

Broil IV
Biolysis
Ruin 2 (seldom used since Broil doesn't take up the whole GCD anymore)
Energy Drain
Art of War

SCH in SB:

Broil 2
Bio
Bio 2 (I think?)
Miasma
Miasma 2 (once readded in...4.1?)
Energy Drain
Bane
Shadow Flare (oGCD with a CD)

...I may be missing one or two more.

SCH in ARR (Cross-Class!):

Ruin
Ruin 2 (instant cast, so had a separate use case unlike Stone 1/2)
Bio
Miasma
Shadow Flare (castable/spamable, but only this or Soil could be up at a time)
Energy Drain
Bane
Aero (Cross-Class)
Thunder (2.0 only)
Blizzard 2 (different use-case than Shadow Flare)

...probably something I'm forgetting.

Contrast:

WHM in EW:

Glare III
Dia
Assize
Afflatus* Misery [Solace/Rapture (debatable as attacks, but they do take up the GCD and feed into Misery being cast), so I'm just calling this slot "Afflatus" since it's "four of this category per minute"]
Holy

WHM in ARR:

Stone 2 (again, Stone 1 was redundant)
Aero
Aero 2
Fluid Aura
Holy
Blizzard 2* [Which, again, doesn't count because WHMs didn't use it AND Holy; leveling they used Blizzard 2 if they had unlocked it, once they got Holy, they swapped over to it, including level cap content in almost all cases.]



Note that this is almost a 1-to-1 between WHM in ARR and WHM in EW. Blizzard 2, as noted, doesn't count at level cap because WHMs didn't use it since Holy was strictly better unless you were OOM, in which case you'd probably cut back your DPSing anyway. The main differences between ARR and EW WHM are not in number of buttons, but in frequency of use for Aero, Aero 2, and Fluid Aura since they had shorter durations (CD for FA) than Dia, Afflatus, and Assize.