Removal of Positionals

[Ransu]

I already stated that True North is one of the reasons why positionals seem pointless and that it should be more restrictive. With that, it also means you shouldn't necessarily be able to hit all positionals.

No, this is a terrible take. If positionals are about "skill" and then you remove the ability to hit all positionals during a fight you now create a system of frustration for a player because no matter how good they are they will hit a dps loss with zero ways to mitigate it.

In what ways does it limit fight design? What is it about bosses that have a full ring that means you couldn't have positionals be relevant in them? Considering what we have had in the past, I see no reason why it would limit fight design.

Limited or removal of true north would force boss designs to be more static. The reason why P2S for example is a circle is because of how you have to position yourself around the stage for mechanics and how often the boss jumps around. DRG for example, would be impossible to hit all their positionals in that fight which is WHY they made it a full circle target to remove positional requirements and it made for an interesting boss fight. I'd rather have that than the static design where a boss barely moves to account for positionals.

Now, for a fun take, does anyone expect to be able to keep a caster GCD rolling full time and lose no damage? No. Every time you clip the GCD, or have to move where you cannot cast, or even use a GCD on a weaker action (Reprise/Scathe), it is all potential damage loss. This is generally seen as accepted, however, if a melee misses a positional, suddenly, people start complaining. Hot take, you shouldn't necessarily hit every positional, in the same way casters won't necessarily be optimal in their GCDs. So why is it one is more accepted than the other?

I can't speak for the other casters as I don't mess with them in end game, but yes as a BLM I fully expect you to keep your GCD's rolling and not clip GCD's. There are enough tools/instant casts available for when you need to move. The only fight where I wanted to pull my hair out this tier was P7S with the running back and forth to bait circles, but its still 100% doable to always have something casting.

The only reason scathe is on my hotbar is to troll my raid leader so he sees that single scathe at the very end of the fight where I throw it out at 1% for the luls. Otherwise, if you're actually using scathe for mobility you're playing BLM wrong as you shouldn't even be wasting a slot for that skill.

Your "hot take" on the positionals is still a garbage take.

Wouldn't that apply for nearly every basic increase to apm?

• Kaiten? I just don't really see the benefit of it. It wasn't difficult to maintain and it didn't really add anything imo. If it stays, it stays, if they doesn't then it doesn't and nothing really changes if it goes.
• Shinten? I just don't really see the benefit of it. It wasn't difficult to maintain and it didn't really add anything imo. If it stays, it stays, if they doesn't then it doesn't and nothing really changes if it goes.
• The Forbidden Chakra / Enlightenment? I just don't really see the benefit of them. They're not difficult to maintain and they don't really add anything imo. If they stay, they stay, if they don't then they don't and nothing really changes if they go.
• Edge/Flood of Shadow? I just don't really see the benefit of them. They're not difficult to maintain and they don't really add anything imo. If they stay, they stay, if they don't then they don't and nothing really changes if they go.

Except kaiten had a direct impact in your resource management and rotation loop management. Stepping 1inch to the left or right to hit a positional isn't even close to the same kind of engagement.

Shinten spam sucks and I wouldn't really miss it.

I don't play the other jobs with those skills mentioned in end game so I won't comment on them.

-What do you think you will do when there's no positionals? You are definitely not going to be dancing around the arena when no mechanics are going on.

-Positionals at least keep you awake and give you extra layers of consideration while performing your rotation.

-The same thing I do now... Stand in one spot and move 1inch to the left or right of the ring because you don't need to be fully at the flank or rear for positionals to count. Literally nothing changes other than the fact I no longer need to pointless move 1inch to the left or right of a circle and then pop true north during mechanics.

-If you need positionals to keep you awake then there are bigger problems at play with combat engagement and boss designs.

[Aco505]

-The same thing I do now... Stand in one spot and move 1inch to the left or right of the ring because you don't need to be fully at the flank or rear for positionals to count. Literally nothing changes other than the fact I no longer need to pointless move 1inch to the left or right of a circle and then pop true north during mechanics.

-If you need positionals to keep you awake then there are bigger problems at play with combat engagement and boss designs.

This kind of comment tells me you don't play melee often or in a variety of high end duties. Yes, this could work for a boss like P6S that is mostly stationary and pretty much a target dummy. It doesn't work in a boss like P5S that is constantly moving or rotating or in any ultimate, especially if the tanks are not doing their positioning job properly. Is it as simple as standing and moving an inch or two during, for instance, the first phase of TOP where you can easily miss positionals even if you play very well?

The argument of moving a tiny bit could also be used for slidecasting windows, or literally anything that involves moving the minimum amount of distance such as dodging an AoE for a mechanic. Might as well just remove these?

Talking about the positioning of positionals by using just dummy fights that provide no challenge is hardly an argument. If the issue is that they're not impactful enough, then make them be a 5% dps loss if you miss them all instead of 3%. Or 10% if you really fancy it. The point is to hit them because they are a dps gain and so it's right to strive to get them all.

And yes, play DRG and then play RPR and tell me which of the two keeps you more awake between cooldowns or burst windows in regards to positioning. You have to continuously keep positionals into account for the former.

The point is not that they're the most engaging thing in the world, but that they add to the overall gameplay and feel of melee jobs.

[Kazimere]

This kind of comment tells me you don't play melee often or in a variety of high end duties. Yes, this could work for a boss like P6S that is mostly stationary and pretty much a target dummy. It doesn't work in a boss like P5S that is constantly moving or rotating or in any ultimate, especially if the tanks are not doing their positioning job properly. Is it as simple as standing and moving an inch or two during, for instance, the first phase of TOP where you can easily miss positionals even if you play very well?

The argument of moving a tiny bit could also be used for slidecasting windows, or literally anything that involves moving the minimum amount of distance such as dodging an AoE for a mechanic. Might as well just remove these?

Talking about the positioning of positionals by using just dummy fights that provide no challenge is hardly an argument. If the issue is that they're not impactful enough, then make them be a 5% dps loss if you miss them all instead of 3%. Or 10% if you really fancy it. The point is to hit them because they are a dps gain and so it's right to strive to get them all.

And yes, play DRG and then play RPR and tell me which of the two keeps you more awake between cooldowns or burst windows in regards to positioning. You have to continuously keep positionals into account for the former.

The point is not that they're the most engaging thing in the world, but that they add to the overall gameplay and feel of melee jobs.

Nothing is stopping you from moving just because. For the "feels." As it stands, there is no impactful incentive to do them in their current iteration. Min maxing a parse is not necessary to beat any savage or ultimate event.

[Mikey_R]

Nothing is stopping you from moving just because. For the "feels." As it stands, there is no impactful incentive to do them in their current iteration. Min maxing a parse is not necessary to beat any savage or ultimate event.

Nothing is stopping you from ignoring them just because. They have no impactful incentive and aren't needed for savage/ultimate anyway.

[Kazimere]

Nothing is stopping you from ignoring them just because. They have no impactful incentive and aren't needed for savage/ultimate anyway.

You're right, there is nothing stopping me. We agree that they aren't impactful then. So, if SoE removes them you shouldn't whine.

[Mikey_R]

You're right, there is nothing stopping me. We agree that they aren't impactful then. So, if SoE removes them you shouldn't whine.

And if they kept them you shouldn't whine either.

[Kazimere]

And if they kept them you shouldn't whine either.

I won't. It doesn't matter to me one way or another, as I have already indicated. I've also come out in support of how positional mechanics used to be, because they were actually impactful beyond "feels." Your argumentation style indicates that you would whine, though. I'll make sure to grab the popcorn when it happens.

[Mikey_R]

No, this is a terrible take. If positionals are about "skill" and then you remove the ability to hit all positionals during a fight you now create a system of frustration for a player because no matter how good they are they will hit a dps loss with zero ways to mitigate it.

The skill is in getting as many as you can. The problem is people put the restrictions on themselves that they HAVE to hit every single one, when it isn't the case. The odd one missed here or there isn't going to impact performance much, but doing it throughout the fight is going to be detrimental. In the same way having to cancel a cast here and there isn't going to massively impact performance, unless it happens constantly. Oh, and because I suspect the question will be asked, I expect somewhere around 85%-90% of positionals to be hit in a fight, any more than that and that person has very very good fight knowledge.

Limited or removal of true north would force boss designs to be more static. The reason why P2S for example is a circle is because of how you have to position yourself around the stage for mechanics and how often the boss jumps around. DRG for example, would be impossible to hit all their positionals in that fight which is WHY they made it a full circle target to remove positional requirements and it made for an interesting boss fight. I'd rather have that than the static design where a boss barely moves to account for positionals.

They weren't more static back in the day though and because back then tanks had to position bosses, this could mean bosses potentially ended up in different places pull by pull and it could change by the tank you had. Even with all this, noone complained about positionals. The challenge was to hit as many as possible and that was the thrill. The fact bosses position themselves, so you know exactly when they are going to move and what direction they will face, means you should be able to fully pre plan and pre position where to stand. This then means that the shift in fight design is what has potentially caused some people to dislike positionals as they have become uninteresting in that regard. Change the fight design back to where melee have to think on the fly, and you have more meaningful positionals.

I can't speak for the other casters as I don't mess with them in end game, but yes as a BLM I fully expect you to keep your GCD's rolling and not clip GCD's. There are enough tools/instant casts available for when you need to move. The only fight where I wanted to pull my hair out this tier was P7S with the running back and forth to bait circles, but its still 100% doable to always have something casting.

Not surprising with BLM being one of the more mobile casters, it would be interesting to see how a RDM or SMN sees things, considering they either have a more limited capability in getting insatcasts for long periods (RDM) or, depending on fight mechanics, they might not be able to avoid having to stop casting (SMN, yes, in theory, if movement happens on Slipstream and Ruby Rite in a minute, you may have to not be casting, I know, shocking. No idea how often that issue comes up though).

Now, where do you find fun in utilising the tools given to casters? I suspect it is the satisfaction of dancing around mechanics whilst keeping uptime. Planning the use of Swiftcast/Triplecast etc. to bypass the restrictions imposed on casters. It is that puzzle element you enjoy. But that is exactly what positionals were for melee, especially Monk. The challenge of dancing around mechanics whilst keeping uptime, not only on the boss, but also hitting the positional. The more and more I compare positionals to cast times, the more parallels I find.