Removal of Positionals

[Akava]

Put me down as a positional supporter. There's nothing you could replace it with that would require all melee to care about their physical location on any boss fight. The number of wipes caused by melee trying to push their limits and sneak in that extra positional are countless and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Ransu]

Put me down as a positional supporter. There's nothing you could replace it with that would require all melee to care about their physical location on any boss fight. The number of wipes caused by melee trying to push their limits and sneak in that extra positional are countless and I wouldn't have it any other way.

You mean the number of bad players that are not paying attention and would have messed up the mechanic regardless.

[Payadopa]

Nothing is stopping you from moving just because. For the "feels." As it stands, there is no impactful incentive to do them in their current iteration. Min maxing a parse is not necessary to beat any savage or ultimate event.

Those scenarios always assume that a party plays perfectly. I dunno how many times in PF a couple of people died and we barely made it before the enrage. It definitely can be impactful. It's more damage. If people are so bothered by it there are options. It's like playing a tank and then complain about having to use mitigation.

Like how boring do you want the job system to become? Dungeons are already boring, since bosses are a joke, as is trash, you're missing a lot of abilities, AoEs don't require positioning, you have no TP and infinite MP... like at what point do we stop removing stuff and ad to it again? Everything is being taken away under the guise of QoL or because it's "so easy" yet people fail to see the bigger picture. I take minimal interaction over no interaction at this point.

[Ransu]

Those scenarios always assume that a party plays perfectly. I dunno how many times in PF a couple of people died and we barely made it before the enrage. It definitely can be impactful. It's more damage. If people are so bothered by it there are options. It's like playing a tank and then complain about having to use mitigation.

Like how boring do you want the job system to become? Dungeons are already boring, since bosses are a joke, as is trash, you're missing a lot of abilities, AoEs don't require positioning, you have no TP and infinite MP... like at what point do we stop removing stuff and ad to it again? Everything is being taken away under the guise of QoL or because it's "so easy" yet people fail to see the bigger picture. I take minimal interaction over no interaction at this point.

TP was horrible. If you played MNK good luck managing your TP without someone using goad on you. Good riddance to that garbage.

[Shurrikhan]

TP was horrible. If you played MNK good luck managing your TP without someone using goad on you. Good riddance to that garbage.

Agreed. To be fair, though, they could have solved that by just granting TP and MP per GCD's time (50 TP per as little as 1.8 seconds in Monk's case, rather than a fixed 60 per 3). Voila.

[Kazimere]

Those scenarios always assume that a party plays perfectly. I dunno how many times in PF a couple of people died and we barely made it before the enrage. It definitely can be impactful. It's more damage. If people are so bothered by it there are options. It's like playing a tank and then complain about having to use mitigation.

Like how boring do you want the job system to become? Dungeons are already boring, since bosses are a joke, as is trash, you're missing a lot of abilities, AoEs don't require positioning, you have no TP and infinite MP... like at what point do we stop removing stuff and ad to it again? Everything is being taken away under the guise of QoL or because it's "so easy" yet people fail to see the bigger picture. I take minimal interaction over no interaction at this point.

I'm not opposed to positionals. I'm just being objective. They're something, but they aren't necessary to beat an event. They used to be necessary, because the penalty was huge. If you missed your positional for TA, no buff for the raid. If you missed your positional for Wheeling Thrust you couldn't Fang and Claw (or vice versa). If you missed your positional for Samurai, you weren't going to get as much kenki, so you better pay attention. Even if you didn't have as severe as penalty as what I just typed, the potency loss was significant from one miss alone. These were meaningful impacts that could actually affect an event. Now, you just lose a little potency. So, what's the point outside of the subjective feeling that you need to twitch. It was the same thing with Kaiten. People were up in arms over nostalgia. Losing it had no meaningful impact to Samurai's game play in EW. Ask to bring back meaningful impact, instead of arguing to keep non meaningful things because of "feels."

Having said that. Has SoE even said they were taking positional attacks away, or is this just people fearing that they're going to be taken away?

[ShaneDawn]

To be honest the notion that positionals get in the way of parses is really silly. Anyone that cares about parses and is competent at their job should be happy to have ways to display skill expression and set themselves apart from other players within the same job. Although the current trend in fight and job design seem to be going the complete opposite direction. :shrug:

[Payadopa]

I'm not opposed to positionals. I'm just being objective. They're something, but they aren't necessary to beat an event. They used to be necessary, because the penalty was huge. If you missed your positional for TA, no buff for the raid. If you missed your positional for Wheeling Thrust you couldn't Fang and Claw (or vice versa). If you missed your positional for Samurai, you weren't going to get as much kenki, so you better pay attention. Even if you didn't have as severe as penalty as what I just typed, the potency loss was significant from one miss alone. These were meaningful impacts that could actually affect an event. Now, you just lose a little potency. So, what's the point outside of the subjective feeling that you need to twitch. It was the same thing with Kaiten. People were up in arms over nostalgia. Losing it had no meaningful impact to Samurai's game play in EW. Ask to bring back meaningful impact, instead of arguing to keep non meaningful things because of "feels."

Having said that. Has SoE even said they were taking positional attacks away, or is this just people fearing that they're going to be taken away?

I get that. But then people would complain the punishment is too harsh so we arrived at this compromise (which I don't share, honestly). Leave the MSQ accessable but give me a skill ceiling back by way of interesting abilities. Also, just to counter your "positionals aren't necessary" argument, so is Raise. "Just dodge stuff lol". And yet it's still a thing. The minimalist approach is what ultimately removes the game part out of the game.

At least people should voice their concern when SE makes moves to make something redundant because they have a terrible track record of giving anything meaningful back in exchange.

We were told after ShB to wait since it's all being done to have a proper foundation from which to build from and after EW it turns out this was pretty much not the case as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not giving them the benefit of doubt anymore. Just stop butchering jobs and the battle system in general.

[Kazimere]

I get that. But then people would complain the punishment is too harsh so we arrived at this compromise (which I don't share, honestly). Leave the MSQ accessable but give me a skill ceiling back by way of interesting abilities. Also, just to counter your "positionals aren't necessary" argument, so is Raise. "Just dodge stuff lol". And yet it's still a thing. The minimalist approach is what ultimately removes the game part out of the game.

At least people should voice their concern when SE makes moves to make something redundant because they have a terrible track record of giving anything meaningful back in exchange.

I get that. We were told after ShB to wait since it's all being done to have a proper foundation from which to build from and after EW it turns out this was pretty much not the case as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not giving them the benefit of doubt anymore. Just stop butchering jobs and the battle system in general.

Fair enough. We can say all we want, but we both know SoE is going to do what they want. Having said that, unless they have come out saying they are removing positional attacks, I don't see it happening. If their intention was to make things more accessible while not being impactful to the point of failing an event, then they have achieved that. Nothing changes except a small hit to potency that won't make or break an event.

[Payadopa]

TP was horrible. If you played MNK good luck managing your TP without someone using goad on you. Good riddance to that garbage.

So instead of rebalancing the system or making minor changes it got deleted. I'm starting to see a pattern here.

Also, hard disagree on Goad. Having to rely on others in an MMO is great design. Not this main character syndrom we have right now. But that's another discussion entirely. Heh